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Gaius Marius posted:Watch all Tomino Gundam in production order Why haven't you done this yet, anybody? (Not that I've accomplished this either, but I'm like halfway there!)
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Oct 5, 2022 20:05
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i think mcgillis is easier to swallow because he's a villain, whereas naze is not only good but a source of guidance and reason for the main characters. a role model, if you will. so you know not explicitly promoting or condoning anything
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Oct 5, 2022 20:10
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Mcgillis is fine because the show clearly goes out of it's way to demonstrate he's wrong. There are characters commenting on how he never grew up. He's ultimately taken down by a former friend, who Mcgillis had no real issue betraying. McGillis is a completely broken individual who doesn't really understand human relationships. Nothing in the show really condemns Naze's super hosed up power dynamics of his ship. His death is viewed as tragic. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 20:19
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i do wish almiria wasn't a child and there was some other, less sexual reason why their marriage would be taboo
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Oct 5, 2022 20:26
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isn't it also portrayed as a marriage of convenience between their two super rich and powerful families
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Oct 5, 2022 20:55
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Gaius Marius posted:Everything about McGills his actions and his character are perfectly congruent. He and Galieo are the two most interesting and deep characters In the show. I vaguely recall interviews between seasons saying he was originally envisioned as another antagonist. He'd ally briefly with Tekkadan after they bamboozled him in their first encounter by sneaking onto his ship mid-combat, but then betray them afterwards; presumably to his superiors in the space mafia.
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Oct 5, 2022 20:59
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ninjewtsu posted:i think mcgillis is easier to swallow because he's a villain, whereas naze is not only good but a source of guidance and reason for the main characters. a role model, if you will. Christ, alright. You're right and I'm wrong.
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Oct 5, 2022 21:01
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sorry man, you're right that that particular comment has already been thoroughly dismantled and moved on from. it was relevant to the point about what separates mcgillis and naze but it wasn't worth getting the extra needless rib in, my bad.
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Oct 5, 2022 21:22
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:isn't it also portrayed as a marriage of convenience between their two super rich and powerful families yeah but i think the way their interactions are presented as generally positive (though reflective of mcgillis' personal trauma, a fact that is not revealed until pretty late into s2) sets off a lot of alarms that people should rightfully have. like mcgillis himself never voices disapproval about the marriage, even in private or to himself, so it looks an awful lot like a very different narrative is unfolding. the show never really has mcgillis say "i don't really like almiria but her situation sucks and i want her to be happy" or anything remotely along those lines, that interpretation comes from reading into his actions and backstory. which is interesting for most character plots but it also leaves the door open that yeah, maybe mcgillis is just straight up a pedophile, that's never actually disproven and it's the first impression basically anyone will have the moment almiria is introduced
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Oct 5, 2022 21:29
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ninjewtsu posted:yeah but i think the way their interactions are presented as generally positive lmao?
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Oct 5, 2022 21:41
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tsob posted:I vaguely recall interviews between seasons saying he was originally envisioned as another antagonist. He'd ally briefly with Tekkadan after they bamboozled him in their first encounter by sneaking onto his ship mid-combat, but then betray them afterwards; presumably to his superiors in the space mafia. The thing is that Naze makes so much more sense that way. Naze as a sleezy dude who isn't inherently antagonistic to Tekkadan but is perfectly glad to use them for his own goals instead flows as "space Mafia rear end in a top hat" so much better. You can show both how Naze's creepy situation is a step up for people and yet still profoundly not a good place to be. (Rather like Tekkadan's own situation of being child mercenaries!) His people can even still be loyal to him but he's still a member of the Space Mafia and not a good person. It makes Tekkadan's decision to ally with them feel more consequential because they are joining a bad organization but one who is still better for them. Like poo poo, if you want to go far enough, replace the cartoonishly evil space mafia rear end in a top hat with him. Lafter gets killed because she was going to leave his harem and no matter how nice he seems that was a no-go and that is the big cause of Tekkadan's break. You can give the rest of Naze's crew more to do! Maybe some of them betray him or maybe they fight to the bitter end because they are that loyal and even that can be used to parallel Tekkadan. This also means you can do more with Azee who was Lafter's best friend and the person who knew how she felt about Akihiro. poo poo, have her find out mid-battle and cap Naze herself Kycilia style, which makes her taking over his organization far more of a "I'm not going to let this bad thing continue" instead of "I honor my noble hat-wearing Jesus."
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Oct 5, 2022 21:43
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That relationship is straight up portrayed as capital P Pedophilia from moment one, McGillis reciprocating is extremely hosed. The whole twist about it isn’t that it being bad is a surprise, its that instead of it being cold blooded manipulation mcgillis is genuinely trying to get it on with a child, because he has Michael Jackson Brain
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Oct 5, 2022 21:45
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yeah? mcgillis is nice to her and it looks like creepy grooming because that's what it is, but the show doesn't really acknowledge that she's being groomed until very late and only implicitly, so it looks like a tone-deaf friendly conversation between a nice guy and his young child bride that makes her happy with no negative consequences
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Oct 5, 2022 21:46
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Yeah, their relationship contributes to McGillis's death, causes Almira's attempted suicide, and in general leaves everyone more traumatized than before. Even if McGillis wasn't trying to cause harm, unlike his father, massive harm comes from it, the situation was orchestrated by the worst person in the show, and in general it was supposed to feel gross and unsettling.
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Oct 5, 2022 21:47
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:That relationship is straight up portrayed as capital P Pedophilia from moment one, McGillis reciprocating is extremely hosed. The whole twist about it isn’t that it being bad is a surprise, its that instead of it being cold blooded manipulation mcgillis is genuinely trying to get it on with a child, because he has Michael Jackson Brain the problem is the show assumes the viewer will give it the benefit of the doubt and go "oh, this is intentionally super creepy" when it really should not assume that
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Oct 5, 2022 21:47
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah, their relationship contributes to McGillis's death, causes Almira's attempted suicide, and in general leaves everyone more traumatized than before. yeah but i don't super appreciate the show waiting until the end of the second season for any of this to happen and asks the viewer to just take it on good faith that mcgillis and almiria's relationship is intentionally hosed up and not just someone's fetish (extra uncomfortable next to naze!) ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 21:50
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Insanity
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Oct 5, 2022 21:53
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Monaghan posted:Mcgillis is fine because the show clearly goes out of it's way to demonstrate he's wrong. 
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Oct 5, 2022 23:23
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TenementFunster posted:glad they finally started doing that instead of making the Space Epstein guy look cool, like some other characters Char and Lalah don't really have much of an age gap(he's 20 and she's 17 in MSG). The "Char is a pedophile" thing is a joke/meme based on nothing besides a throwaway line from Gyunei in CCA. That art is very skeevy because it seems to be drawing Lalah to look way younger, though, which is gross. Kanos fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 23:49
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Kanos posted:Char and Lalah don't really have much of an age gap(he's 20 and she's 17 in MSG). The "Char is a pedophile" thing is a joke/meme based on nothing besides a throwaway line from Gyunei in CCA.  doesn't seem very "throwaway" to me, especially considering how char is overtly grooming Quess from the moment she meets her. the scene where char takes quess from the limo to the subway/monorail just so he can impression her with how much people treat him like Big King poo poo is something else.
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Oct 5, 2022 23:58
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Char is a terrible person in CCA. He recognizes that Quess is attracted to him and uses that to lure her in and turn her into a tool, because he recognizes that she's a strong newtype who can become a deadly weapon to further his plans. He also does it because he knows it will goad Amuro and piss him off, and one of his primary goals in CCA is to force a final showdown with Amuro. It's made abundantly clear in Char's interactions with Nanai and Amuro that he has literally no interest in Quess beyond her use as a weapon, and he doesn't care at all or react when she dies. He's a monster bastard for weaponizing a child, but he's not a pedophile. If "knowingly exploits children to turn them into weapons" counts as being a pedophile/grooming, Gundam is kinda groomers all the way down. Kanos fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Oct 6, 2022 |
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Oct 6, 2022 00:10
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Kanos posted:Char and Lalah don't really have much of an age gap(he's 20 and she's 17 in MSG). The "Char is a pedophile" thing is a joke/meme based on nothing besides a throwaway line from Gyunei in CCA. He also doesn't actually gently caress her when he meets her so far as I can tell from the little bits of info I can find online about the novel. He's brought to a brothel in India by another officer while despondent after being washed out following Garma's death where Lalah is basically enslaved to work, but has tried to escape several times and senses her power before he even meets her. So he goes to her room because of it, and then buys her from the brothel, and places her in the Flanagan Institute. It's not until they meet again at Side 6 after Char realizes he needs help beating the Gundam that they start a relationship of any kind I think, which is mostly on Lalah's end going by the way it's depicted in the anime. Which is still an uneven power dynamic, but Char recognizes that on some level, since he basically calls her a tool while in the Texas Colony and Lalah says she's okay with being his tool because she wants to protect him after he saved her life. After which she meets Amuro, and starts questioning her decision. Hence all the "you're too late, if only I'd met you first" stuff. It's also worth bearing in mind that was a retcon made by a novel Tomino wrote in the mid-90s. Originally she had no backstory at all in the animation, beyond "Char saved my life in some unspecified way". The full setting notes may have some information on it, but no release of them I've ever seen includes anything about her past so that's not something we know, I guess. The first backstory we have for her was from the Mobile Suit Gundam novels, where Lalah was a war orphan whose parents were killed in the Zeon attacks on Side 5 during the battle of Loum and Char gets some sense of her ability when he meets her at the Flanagan Institute on Side 6. I don't think it's explained how she got there, but they have a different relationship in the novels regardless, and Char in general is quite different from the animation. He initially wants to go to Side 6 after being ordered there because he finds himself wanting to see Lalah for it's own sake after first meeting her at some point in the past, and thinks that he loves her. So he takes her death a bit harder. However, after a while he falls for one of Kycilia's secretaries, a woman called Margaret Ring Blair and they meet a handful of times, with Char telling her that he wants her to have his children and basically admitting to himself that he actually loves her in a way he never loved Lalah. He realizes that he instead had a savior complex with Lalah, rather than loving her. The Char in the novels develops in a way the animation Char never could, essentially. Strangely, no other work has ever used Margaret Ring Blair in anything, so far as I know. Char's Deleted Affair, which introduces a love interest on Axis for Char, uses a different character by the name of Natalie Bianchi for some reason, even though it'd have been the perfect place to use Margaret Ring Blair if one was to come up. TenementFunster posted:
As above, Char was really just grooming Quess as a pilot even though he knowingly took advantage of the fact she looked up to him and was desperate for his approval and love. He outright admits he never saw her as more than a tool to Amuro in the end. Char at least had some feelings for Lalah in any version of the story, but he never seemed to actually care about Quess on any level beyond what use she could offer as a pilot in his war. Still bad, but not in the specific way you're implying. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Oct 6, 2022 |
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Oct 6, 2022 00:27
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tsob posted:He outright admits he never saw her as more than a tool to Amuro in the end.
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Oct 6, 2022 00:33
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i dunno man he tells amuro lalah could have been his mommy if she hadn't died
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Oct 6, 2022 00:38
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TenementFunster posted:consider the person he was talking with there. i took it as him assuring the adult woman he might just be keeping around for PR that he absolutely wasn’t trying to seduce this teen - promise! He's not talking to Nanai there; he's talking to Amuro when he says he saw Quess as a tool. If I examine his actions throughout the story I still don't see anything in them to suggest he cared about Quess though, and only that he wanted to make her a weapon. The only time he chooses to spend time with her is when he's trying to make her view his actions as good and right, after which he basically never sees her again unless she forces it; unless you count the time he observers Nanai testing her funnel compatibility. Which, again, weapon. He only ever tells her what he thinks she wants to hear in order to get her to do what he wants. Which is also true of everyone else in the film, bar Amuro. It's true of Quess, it's true of Gyunei, it's true of Nanai, it's true of the Sweetwater politicians, it's true of the Federation politicians, and it's true of the Neo Zeon troops. He never even shows much emotion with any of them. He's a very smooth, controlled person with very practiced words that seemed tailored to each of them, including several contradictory promises. The only time he shows real emotion and seems like he's speaking from the heart and expressing the truth is with Amuro, both at the start of the film when they fight over 5th Luna and Char says he wants to punish Earthnoids and at the end when he and Amuro are arguing over Axis. Including when Amuro accuses him of using Quess when she needed a father figure, and he says that it's not wonder he found her annoying and used her as a tool before lashing out at Amuro for killing Lalah because the accusation and truth of his own actions has hurt him and he wants to hurt Amuro in the same way using the only thing he knows will pain Amuro. Which is why I doubt it was just a lie meant to assuage Amuro in the first place. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Oct 6, 2022 |
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Oct 6, 2022 00:40
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Char is ace. Every time he hosed in zeta was begrudgingly
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Oct 6, 2022 00:42
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Char is trying to simultaneously replace the mother who he feels abandoned him and replace the little sister who he abandoned.
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Oct 6, 2022 00:45
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Yeah, I don't think Char even has a romantic interest in the woman he is literally loving in CCA.
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Oct 6, 2022 00:55
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ninjewtsu posted:i dunno man he tells amuro lalah could have been his mommy if she hadn't died i’m with gyunei. tsob posted:I doubt it was just a lie meant to assuage Amuro in the first place. TenementFunster fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Oct 6, 2022 |
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Oct 6, 2022 00:56
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Still think it's hilarious that one of Gyunei's attempts to make Quess stop fixating on Char so he could get with her was to claim that "well, Char's into young girls".
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Oct 6, 2022 00:58
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Kanos posted:Still think it's hilarious that one of Gyunei's attempts to make Quess stop fixating on Char so he could get with her was to claim that "well, Char's into young girls".
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Oct 6, 2022 01:01
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On the subject of McGillis in IBO I always took the situation to be an arranged marriage between noble families. With McGillis as the heir of the Fareed family and the old school Euro monarchy vibe of Gjallarhorn it fits. I saw him as manipulating Almiria for his own gain for sure though.
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Oct 6, 2022 01:08
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TenementFunster posted:Lalah, Haman, and now Quess? can’t blame him. In early character design sketches, Haman was apparently 23 at the start of Zeta, so she'd be Lalah's age when she met Char, who'd be fresh off Lalah's death, which kind of makes everything make more sense. Apprentice Dick posted:On the subject of McGillis in IBO I always took the situation to be an arranged marriage between noble families. With McGillis as the heir of the Fareed family and the old school Euro monarchy vibe of Gjallarhorn it fits. I saw him as manipulating Almiria for his own gain for sure though. That was confirmed to be the case from the jump, with it being set up by McGillis's "father". Gaelio even cracks a few jokes about it, pitying his best friend since he's engaged to a kid, but also trusting McGillis to not be a creep about it since, well, they were best friends. Gaelio was kind of a moron at the start of the show. But he lived long enough to grow out of it. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Oct 6, 2022 |
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Oct 6, 2022 01:16
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chiasaur11 posted:In early character design sketches, Haman was apparently 23 at the start of Zeta, so she'd be Lalah's age when she met Char, who'd be fresh off Lalah's death, which kind of makes everything make more sense.
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Oct 6, 2022 01:27
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TenementFunster posted:it does not make sense at all, unless you assume this is a man with an inappropriate and dangerous attraction to a succession of teenage girls who all end up dead! Obviously not. This is a man with an inappropriate and dangerous attraction to a succession of teenage Newtype girls who all end up dead.
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Oct 6, 2022 02:41
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Blaze Dragon posted:Obviously not.
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Oct 6, 2022 02:55
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Blaze Dragon posted:Obviously not. I can't believe you're leaving Kamile and Kats out of this equation
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Oct 6, 2022 03:01
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Prologue smoked episode 1 in density of interesting stuff, but that's the nature of poo poo so I guess Im gonna watch the new show even though I quit halfway through IBO
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Oct 6, 2022 03:06
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Blaze Dragon posted:Obviously not. Hey, Reccoa shows that he's perfectly capable of having disastrous relationships with adult Newtypes as well.
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Oct 6, 2022 04:04
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chiasaur11 posted:Hey, Reccoa shows that he's perfectly capable of having disastrous relationships with adult Newtypes as well. If you think that wooden attempt at forced affection is a relationship, I've got an Oggo to sell you.
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Oct 6, 2022 04:32
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