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we have a black belt who plays this thing he calls "the iron pillow" which is basically that, but he lays on his side with the bottom arm extended lazily upward. It's really annoying.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:33
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This talk of unusual positions with strong defensive properties is making me think of Priit Mihkelson's work. Has anyone else checked out his stuff?
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Oct 7, 2022 16:46
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Yeah it’s great. I use the Panda turtle (where you don’t place your elbows on the ground, instead you seal them by your ribs, put your hands near your cheeks, and post only on your head, like a man genuflecting for prayer almost) and it frustrates the hell out of people trying to break down turtle. Can’t get a seatbelt or a hook, and I’m just waiting to granby or victors roll into a kneebar
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Oct 7, 2022 16:48
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I was going to mention Priit. I watched some of his videos but haven't tried to work it specifically. The takeaway seemed to be keep your elbows in and you'd be surprised how hard it is to be finished.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:50
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CommonShore posted:we have a black belt who plays this thing he calls "the iron pillow" which is basically that, but he lays on his side with the bottom arm extended lazily upward. It's really annoying. It's the natural order for all old black belts to discover the power of laying flat in a very particular way.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:59
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Pron on VHS posted:Yeah it’s great. I use the Panda turtle (where you don’t place your elbows on the ground, instead you seal them by your ribs, put your hands near your cheeks, and post only on your head, like a man genuflecting for prayer almost) and it frustrates the hell out of people trying to break down turtle. Can’t get a seatbelt or a hook, and I’m just waiting to granby or victors roll into a kneebar yeah when someone does that to me I use one of like 6 judo turnovers. Usually I just grab their near foot, block the far hand, and roll them like a ball. Turtle is a deceptively strong position and it always amazes me how much purely BJJ focused people just try to attack it as if there's no risk. I spent a month just turtling for every roll and I was always able to do stupid things.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:02
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CommonShore posted:yeah when someone does that to me I use one of like 6 judo turnovers. Usually I just grab their near foot, block the far hand, and roll them like a ball. Turtle is a deceptively strong position and it always amazes me how much purely BJJ focused people just try to attack it as if there's no risk. I spent a month just turtling for every roll and I was always able to do stupid things. The most valuable instructional I ever watched was Telles Turtle Guard. I hit practically every combo in it nearly at will. The only people below black who can do anything are the ones with extensive wrestling who are used to working against referees position.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:06
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Defenestrategy posted:So i learned a very valuable lesson yesterday, so I like to play with different grappling rules sets. I've done mma, combat jiu jitsu, sub only, different clothing, etc,etc and I like to play around in those spaces. Over the last few weeks in ibjjf gi ive been seeing what happebs if while on bottom what happens if i just put my hands and arms behind my head and basically the answer three things. 1) if theyre new or have no imagination its like an iron wall. Theyll try mount chokes but get rolled off 2) a little bit higher on the scale and theyll go knee on belly to crush it out of you, in which case if you can flex into it and not let them see you in pain theyll get bored and eventually cycle around to option 1. 3) the good people with imagination will try to crush a rib with their elbow from side forcing you to frame on them and gtfo. This leads to an easy arm capture. Yeah, that just sounds like a free collar choke to me. That said, I got good enough at the trap-and-roll escape early on that I'd bait it in a similar way until I started regularly rolling with guys who actually had a good mount. I guess that ties in to the earlier discussion about mount having a steep learning curve. duckdealer posted:This talk of unusual positions with strong defensive properties is making me think of Priit Mihkelson's work. I stumbled on most of the same ideas just by turtling a lot, but his stuff is a good distillation of the principles behind a defensive posture outside of the standard guards and scoring positions. My experience with it has been that the tricky part is figuring out how to switch from defense to offense, especially against people with good pressure and/or grips.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:58
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Thanks for talking about Priit, this guy looks like he teaches things are 10000% my jam.Nestharken posted:Yeah, that just sounds like a free collar choke to me. If we take the standard one in one out/two in chokes, because the shoulders are up and shrugged the distance of the choke is increased significantly, if you can even pry your fingers deep enough into the collar in the first place to get a good enough grip to have something significant for the other guy to worry about. Certainly worse than, classic on your side and frame. Not saying it's impossible, but it's not free by any measure. The various lapel chokes on the other hand are fairly free though Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 19:42
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When I mount, I'm always looking to be high enough I'm basically sitting just below my opponent's chin, so I'd start with that or s-mount. You're putting your arms just where I'd normally fight to get them, so I'd thank you
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Oct 7, 2022 23:42
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My immediate* thoughts: *no longer very immediate • Crossneck w/ forearm into your carotid and trachea? (Presumably could force you to unhide your arms or at least start moving -- from mount I usually want to keep my arms on opposite sides of your centerline, but...) • As a followup to the above, dismount and spin for a north-south choke • Arm triangle version of the Dead Orchard? (Is that even a thing?? Sounds iffy) • Americana-ish reverse giftwrap? (I imagine this could force you onto your side + lift your head off the mat too) • Armbar setup if I can loop an arm inside your elbow, or possibly taking your back if you keep your hands tightly clasped behind your head? • Collar chokes, since you specified gi??? • Or the below! I haven't done gi in quite a minute but the videos Danaher and Ryan have put out on mount attacks talk about something similar to this. I think Danaher in particular describes Roger Gracie in gi opening up his opponents from mount by working/threatening collar chokes, while Ryan discussed that in nogi we should consider "fully passing guard" as including passing the arms as well to get head control (except for north-south, where you can isolate an arm without ever fully controlling the head). Both of them have public videos out on doing a sort of nogi version of Gracie's collar choke threats, essentially: cross grip + bodyweight to push a wrist to the ground, switch grips and grab a crossface, lever the isolated elbow above their shoulder line, and then wrap up a chest smother ("mother's milk") -- much like Gracie's collar chokes, you work for and take the tap if it happens, but also you should expect them to defend at some point along the way and then take advantage of them opening themselves up (in particular, backtakes and arm triangles for this sequence). If I'm understanding your description correctly, this sequence may be available from my first bullet point up top too, where the crossneck arm could also snag one of your wrists and go from there.
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Oct 8, 2022 00:55
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The two videos I was talking about, of systematically working through a mounted opponent's defenses in nogi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FbGenSia08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kft2AkvKhWU The "no head control = guard not fully passed" bit may have been from some other video though... fortunately these videos go through the actual maneuvers much better than my somewhat-misremembered summary!
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Oct 8, 2022 02:06
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starkebn posted:It was while no-one else was here, I was just doing the morning cleaning. He's in town for a seminar somewhere else (Base training centre?) and I guess my coach asked him to train. Competing at ADCC has it's advantages I suppose. I actually ended up getting a free last minute ticket to the saturday one - sweeps from octopus half guard. Someone at my gym had a ticket and had to drop out at the last minute. Threadpostin’ from the same room as Craig Jones right now
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Oct 8, 2022 03:57
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Defenestrategy posted:ive been seeing what happebs if while on bottom what happens if i just put my hands and arms behind my head I do this when I have guard and its after a bunch of wrist control fighting when I want to frustrate the opponent and cause them to either try something else or just to reset and engage with grip fighting on my terms
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Oct 8, 2022 04:46
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The Danaher/Ryan mount sequence has been the most effective addition to my game in some time. Would highly recommend. Before this I avoided mount for fear of being reversed; over the course of a week or two it became my best attacking position.
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Oct 8, 2022 21:02
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The one that starts with a slow climb into an arm triangle? It’s amazing.
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Oct 9, 2022 08:10
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Looking for some guidance on the cross wrist (from mount) I had trouble pinning my partner's arm to the floor from mount last night. I'm more experienced, bigger, stronger but still couldn't get it. I've since watched Danaher and Ryan explain it and I think I know which details i missed. They differ though in their preference for how they push the partner's arm to the mat. John says bend your own arm them push. Gordon says keep your arm straight and use body weight. Any advice? Also some advice on general about hunting subs from mount on lower belts. It's a huge gap in my game. Thanks!
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Oct 11, 2022 15:30
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I've had more success with Gordon's approach. The key detail that helped me is that when you lock your elbows and using body weight, you want to lean your weight forward off your hips (similar to when you're finishing a cross collar choke from mount where you lean forward and ultimately bring your head to the mat). When you lean your weight forward like that, gravity is working a lot more for you and against your opponent than if you have your weight back on your hips with your elbows locked and are just trying to push with your arms. More generally, when I play mount in the gi, I look to combine attacks - cross collar choke and armbar, keylock and ezekiel, for the most part. In nogi, options are much more limited and it's much easier for your opponent to escape as well (we were talking about this upthread recently), and so I actually will generally go with the technique described above, as 9 times out of 10 when you start to isolate the arm with the downward pressure they will turn to tuck the elbow and protect, and you can go to crooked mount and start hunting the back which I prefer over mount in nogi. And if they don't turn then I am also happy to keylock them.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:54
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Really useful thanks!
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Oct 11, 2022 17:00
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This may be obvious be be sure you are using a cross arm palm up grip on whichever arm they put on top and be ready to switch arms when they resist
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Oct 11, 2022 17:52
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Whether you push with a straight arm or a bent arm comes down to whether you prefer a higher posture in mount so that you can do things like spam cross-collar grips or a lower posture so that you can do things like wrap the head and threaten an Ezekiel. Both are valid, but you can and should be using your body weight to move the arm in either case. I don't see it taught much for some reason, but here's the trick for doing that with a bent arm (3:00 timestamp): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_7USnA5Mo0&t=180s butros posted:More generally, when I play mount in the gi, I look to combine attacks - cross collar choke and armbar, keylock and ezekiel, for the most part. In nogi, options are much more limited and it's much easier for your opponent to escape as well (we were talking about this upthread recently), and so I actually will generally go with the technique described above, as 9 times out of 10 when you start to isolate the arm with the downward pressure they will turn to tuck the elbow and protect, and you can go to crooked mount and start hunting the back which I prefer over mount in nogi. And if they don't turn then I am also happy to keylock them. These are all great options. I've also been having a lot of success lately digging for a kimura grip on the top-side arm when they turn as described above, which is even easier in no-gi; that's a very solid control position to set up an armbar, back take, N/S kimura, etc.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:10
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Amazing, thanks. I noticed I've been going for it from a very low mount which might explain why it failed...
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Oct 11, 2022 21:48
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The 4x4 mount system: I've isolated uke's arm to the mat, have the underhook, am working his elbow up gradually. Against big guys though, they're sometimes able to return their elbow to their ribs, trapping my arm and setting me up to be rolled. Any tips on how to prevent this?
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Oct 12, 2022 18:49
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I like to combo the attack on the arm with threatening the Ezekiel. Assuming you have head control with the arm that isn't trying to isolate theirs, what you can do is threaten the Ezekiel, which they will have to respond to or otherwise get choked. They are most likely going to respond by raising their arm to bring their hand to the neck, which does the job for you of raising up the elbow. When they bring their hand/elbow up, you go from attacking the Ezekiel to inchworming again.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:58
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I suspect your underhook may be too close to uke's armpit -- the closer the crook of your elbow is to their elbow, the more leverage you'll have over them. You may also be able to reach your crossface arm deeper to grab a behind-the-head Americana grip on their isolated wrist, go two-on-one with your free(ish) arm, and work on dragging their forearm up to kill their arm; then only sink the underhook after killing the arm w/ their elbow above their shoulderline. (This version sounds especially prone to letting them turn towards their isolated arm and bring their other hand across their body, so be prepared to switch to S-mount / seatbelt / backtake / kimura grip as soon as the opportunity presents itself!) Pondering this a little more, and along the lines of what [b]Nestharken[b] was talking about, you might also experiment whether you start from low vs high mount when initiating this sequence, and also whether you want to ratchet up from a low into high mount during some of the sequence. I think Gordon Ryan's version, as well as what I'm talking about above, is more specific to high mount, so you may be encountering entirely different problems than what I'm attempting to discuss if you're starting and staying in low mount for this. I believe John Danaher's version may keep low mount longer, up until wrapping up the chest smother.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:46
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I'm being asked to show a Jiu Jitsu ground technique once a week when I visit Judo class, which is touching. I was wondering, do lasso sweep off a guard pass and baseball bat choke seem legal/reasonable for Judo? With the lasso sweep you have to clear the arm or you'll accidentally bicep slicer them after the sweep, baseball batt seems fine to me and it's a little sneaky.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:33
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Are slicers illegal in judo because the bicep slicer part of that sweep is the best part of that sweep 
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Oct 13, 2022 21:46
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Jack B Nimble posted:I'm being asked to show a Jiu Jitsu ground technique once a week when I visit Judo class, which is touching. I was wondering, do lasso sweep off a guard pass and baseball bat choke seem legal/reasonable for Judo? With the lasso sweep you have to clear the arm or you'll accidentally bicep slicer them after the sweep, baseball batt seems fine to me and it's a little sneaky. More chokes are always appreciated! The baseball bat choke is a legal variant of a kodokan technique, so depending on how focused the dojo is on newaza, you might find that many of them already know it, but chances are many will not. I'm not too familiar with the lasso sweep but if I'm understanding it correctly I don't think it would be too useful for judo competition because of time limitations on newaza. If the dojo is more open to non-sport judo, that sounds like a fun lesson.
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Oct 13, 2022 21:47
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The gym actually seems pretty good at Ne-waza to me; the owner's social media photo is her hitting a sick arm bar in a tournament and her student that teaches most of the classes went out and got a blue belt in BJJ and I seem to recall he knows what a baseball bat choke is but also always says "it's been a while" whenever I bring up a technique. Lmao I googled it and apparently bicep slicers are legal, they call them compression elbow locks and it makes sense, they attack elbows in Judo. Like, I showed a kimura (((elbow lock))) off of knee on belly and they liked it fine. Edit: Regarding the time factor you can force the position for the sweep, whether or not you could do it fast enough I'm not sure, but the younger Sensei specifically said he's interested in the stuff that's outside of the basic judo techniques because they've done all that to death. Edit2 - is legal to choke someone with a lapel grip? It has to be because of stuff like the read naked. I ask because no gi baseball bat, even in gi, is harder to do (the grip is trickier) but even sneaker because they won't feel you holding onto their lapel. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 21:53
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Grace Baiting posted:I suspect your underhook may be too close to uke's armpit -- the closer the crook of your elbow is to their elbow, the more leverage you'll have over them. You may also be able to reach your crossface arm deeper to grab a behind-the-head Americana grip on their isolated wrist, go two-on-one with your free(ish) arm, and work on dragging their forearm up to kill their arm; then only sink the underhook after killing the arm w/ their elbow above their shoulderline. (This version sounds especially prone to letting them turn towards their isolated arm and bring their other hand across their body, so be prepared to switch to S-mount / seatbelt / backtake / kimura grip as soon as the opportunity presents itself!) I'll try mixing in the anericana grip if I can reach it while keeping the crossface. I probably would focus on them crossface more as it will help keep my opponent from moving around too much.
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Oct 13, 2022 23:29
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Might depend if they want BJJ ground work for judo or just want to see something novel. Because if it's something new you gotta hit a matrix to crab ride or kiss of the dragon or something convoluted
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Oct 14, 2022 00:01
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You should ask them what they’re looking to get out of it, and then you could come up with much better move choices.
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Oct 14, 2022 06:43
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For example - they might be looking for new tricks to use within the judo ruleset. Or they might be looking to learn things outside the judo ruleset to round out their art as a self-defense thing. Or they might just be looking for interesting tricks to inspire them creatively and keep themselves from getting bored. Or maybe they’ve started regularly encountering people in competition who crosstrain both arts and they’re just trying to get a better understanding of the differences. Or maybe they don’t want to change their newaza strategy, but they think that you can help them improve the mechanics of their finishes. Or maybe they want to make their submission chains longer or add some new dilemmas into their attacks, etc
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Oct 14, 2022 12:59
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:For example - they might be looking for new tricks to use within the judo ruleset. No I have and it's definitely this, sorry if I wasn't clearer about that. That's why I'd asked if Lasso to bicep slicer seemed legal, the question of whether or not it can be done before matae is called is something I can't really discern myself,but I feel like you can hit a lasso sweep about as fast as anything like a hip over or scissor. Edit - I tapped the BJJ blue belt with a move he'd never seen, and that moved them from vaguely suggesting I show something at some point to "hey teach that, right now" and then they asked if I. Could teach something every class and I pointed out I could show them whatever we've been doing that week in BJJ if it seemed useful to Judo, but I'm trying to prep a small selection. Edit - it was this, but you can hit a nice choke if they pressure straight in or towards the trapped arm, tou just put your free hand on the overhooked shoulder, slip the forearm under the chin, then flare the elbow up while you pull the cross grip on the lapep. https://youtu.be/3NWLtQirG_g Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Oct 14, 2022 |
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Oct 14, 2022 13:21
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Fair enough. What’s your favourite move to pull against judoka who give up their back, tuck their hands defensively, go belly down and flatten themselves into the floor? The only solution I ever came up with was to basically knee ride their spine and lift their head up by the back of the collar, then that exposed an elbow for me to sort out some kind of kimura. It’s a really savage and jerky motion, I always wondered if I should be doing something less assholeish
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Oct 14, 2022 14:32
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I find I can generally catch a hold on something and keep them from rolling belly down, but any time they complete the move I basically give up because yeah all my option seem kind of rough. If you put a gun to my head I would use what in BJJ we called a "power nelson" that should flip them over and give me a lapel choke, but I haven't set it up in a reasonable time yet because the judoka is so tight. Not surprisingly, the best move I have for that position they actually taught me, and now I use it a lot for turtle in BJJ - Stand over them, your feet by their hips. Grab their belt with both hands. Dead lift them right off the ground. Grab their lapels near the arm pit. Swing one leg under them, pull them over your hips as you roll under them. You should end up in a pin, sort of a ... Cami Shiho?
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Oct 14, 2022 14:41
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Fair enough. What’s your favourite move to pull Mount them, lift them up by their collar, slide a hand underneath and monkeypaw one of their wrists out, keeping it tight in an elbow lock and turning them on their side as you transition to kneeling over their head. Then you have a lot of options, including a nice key lock from their belt or gi.
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Oct 14, 2022 14:42
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If someone's Judo Planking and it isn't Judo rules then I'm just gonna pick an ankle and leglock em
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Oct 14, 2022 14:52
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Yeah outside of Judo rules it's a terrible idea. Like, even in "sport Jiujitsu" I try not to do things that won't work if someone can punch tou and Judo Planking is definitely on that list. I like the idea of lifting them up by the collar, I've only actually been in the position of attacking the judo plank a few times so far, and it *feels like* no static position should hold up long to anyone who knows what they're doing, but I haven't been to, say, a positional class where they out us in that spot repeatedly.
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Oct 14, 2022 15:01
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| # ? May 17, 2024 21:44 |
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I've asked a high level ref about this. Bicep slicers are illegal but only as a finisher. You can use them in situations where uke can choose to get out by moving, eg a grip break on an arm bar. It's similar to how you can use an aggressive collar tie to put pressure on someone but can't go for a neck crank. Any choke with ukes lapel is legal. Any choke with toris is illegal.
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Oct 14, 2022 15:17
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