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Yeah the reasons why they got so insular are really a deep dive into some incredible history but as you can probably tell the part of it I had forward experience with was the way they intentionally stay super sexist and controlling and create some really sad DV cases
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Oct 12, 2022 20:32
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They got a lot of money from SNAP for kids and NYC set up a special program that paid for their busses to school. The article you cited earlier referred to one school getting $4 million over the course of a year for 500 students. That's not necessarily a lot for a properly functioning school, but under these circumstances...
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Oct 12, 2022 20:32
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Discendo Vox posted:The article you cited earlier referred to one school getting $4 million over the course of a year for 500 students. Yeah, but it was mostly SNAP money from the 2021 stimulus bill that wasn't really restricted to education. They could have gotten it if they were a day care. There isn't a voucher system or property tax exemption for sending you kids to a Yeshiva like the other poster was guessing that it was "all about vouchers" and school choice money. The NYC public school budget is about $40 billion. $4 million (mostly for food) is not really comparable to a real school's public money.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:34
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pencilhands posted:What exactly is their motivation for harming their own community like that? They honestly believe that the six hours a day of Torah study are far more important for the kids' well-being than the one hour of secular studies. For them, the fact that it also leaves the children totally unequipped for secular life is a plus, not a minus - it ensures their children won't be seduced away from the godly path to do things like challenge the rabbi's authority, leave the community, or (worst of all) have a relationship with a non-Jew. For many of these parents, religious life is literally life itself - and anyone who doesn't participate in religious life might as well be dead. And that's not as much of a metaphor as you've might hope! I've seen ex-Satmar folks talk about how they've heard that their parents are holding funeral prayers and memorial prayers for them like they're literally actually dead (and of course, those parents will actively refuse any sort of contact with them and their sinful secular life). Stories from people who've left these communities can get pretty tragic.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, but it was mostly SNAP money from the 2021 stimulus bill that wasn't really restricted to education. They could have gotten it if they were a day care. I stand corrected, thanks.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:39
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The one thing I wish the NYT followed up on is what the Yeshiva system spent their $100,000 federal grant for internet connections in low-income schools/daycares/kindergartens on when the kids aren't allowed to use the internet. I'm not sure what the rules are for staff or admin, but even if it was for them, it would seem to be against the spirit of the grant, even if not the letter of the law.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:42
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Alex Jones verdict in his CT trial being read now and he is getting completely reamed on the damages. Up to ~$761 million in attorney's fees and liabilities for the multiple complainants right now. Edit: Last verdict read for a total of $965 million. https://twitter.com/MoString/status/1580283195886424066 The final number will almost certainly be knocked down on appeal and I am not sure if CT has caps on damages or safe haven/homestead exemptions for people in civil suits. But, this is basically "real bankruptcy" and not "fake bankruptcy" territory. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 20:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Alex Jones verdict in his CT trial being read now and he is getting completely reamed on the damages. Total is $965,000,000. That's a lot of cheddar.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The one thing I wish the NYT followed up on is what the Yeshiva system spent their $100,000 federal grant for internet connections in low-income schools/daycares/kindergartens on when the kids aren't allowed to use the internet. I'm not sure what the rules are for staff or admin, but even if it was for them, it would seem to be against the spirit of the grant, even if not the letter of the law. IIRC nowadays a lot of Hasidic households and businesses have the internet just because in 2022 it's the only practical way to pay bills and crap -- probably heavily filtered so they don't get impure thoughts looking at porn, placing Amazon orders or reading the news
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Oct 12, 2022 20:50
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Edward Mass posted:Total is $965,000,000. That's a lot of cheddar. man bankruptcy would look good for him right now, if only he hadn't already done it and already pissed off his bankruptcy judge already
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Oct 12, 2022 20:51
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note that the $965 million appears to be compensatory damages they haven't gotten to the punitives yet, i think?
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Oct 12, 2022 20:53
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I know we went over the whole "huh, Alex Jones makes like 60 million dollars a month that's crazy" last time but now I guess we get to find out if Alex Jones has an Actual Billion Dollars lying around for the courts to take or if its all gonna get paid in IOUs and brain pills
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Oct 12, 2022 20:56
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projecthalaxy posted:I know we went over the whole "huh, Alex Jones makes like 60 million dollars a month that's crazy" last time but now I guess we get to find out if Alex Jones has an Actual Billion Dollars lying around for the courts to take or if its all gonna get paid in IOUs and brain pills There is no way that everyone is getting the full amount they are legally entitled to. Jones still has YET another suit and the judgement from the Texas case still to be finalized. But, if these judgements hold, then Jones is basically losing everything and most of his future income for the rest of his life.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:57
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Jones moved his money to shell companies years ago when these trials started. I've been looking to see if anything's been done to lock that down and get that money back, since what's been taken over by the bankruptcy court only appears to be the corpse of his production company he left behind: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/25/us/politics/alex-jones-lawsuits-bankruptcy.html quote:The families said in their filing that Mr. Jones had siphoned nearly $62 million from his business into financial vehicles benefiting himself and his family beginning in 2018, when the Sandy Hook families first filed suit.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:00
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evilweasel posted:note that the $965 million appears to be compensatory damages Yeah, they don't do punitive until the verdict is reached. So, they are doing it in a few days. This is entirely compensatory. Which makes it even more likely to get knocked down a little on appeal, but lol, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The final number will almost certainly be knocked down on appeal and I am not sure if CT has caps on damages or safe haven/homestead exemptions for people in civil suits. But, this is basically "real bankruptcy" and not "fake bankruptcy" territory. I'm not sure if he can appeal it at this point considering what led up to this point. From what I understand, this is a literally unprecedented situation.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, they don't do punitive until the verdict is reached. So, they are doing it in a few days. This is entirely compensatory. i wouldn't bet on it punitive damages routinely get knocked down on appeal based on multipliers of compensatory damages, as essentially a legal matter. the supreme court (and many states) basically say above a certain multiple of compensatory damages, punitive damages aren't allowed. I don't recall what the supreme-court approved multiple is but just pretend it's 5:1. that would mean if compensatory damages were $1m, any punitive award over $5m is getting knocked down on appeal, pretty much as a matter of law. compensatory damages, however, are a fact issue the jury was given to determine and have a very high burden to overturn. in essence it is easy for an appeals court to say "this is legally wrong, redo" because the standard is "de novo" or, in english and non-legalese: if the appeals court thinks the trial judge got it wrong, they change it. the appeals court owes basically no deference to what was decided on legal grounds. however for factual issues, it is considerably harder - especially for facts found by a jury. you basically have to find that no reasonable jury could have found those facts. remember, the measure of compensatory damages are, essentially, "you are indifferent between bad thing happening + you getting this money, vs it not happening at all" and i gotta say i find it hard to argue that there is any amount too high for "you were tortured about your dead young child who was murdered" and I don't see CT judges feeling like arguing that either evilweasel fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 21:08
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evilweasel posted:note that the $965 million appears to be compensatory damages No, I understand those to be determined by the judge, not jury, under CUTPA. quote:Sec. 42-110g. Action for damages. Class actions. Costs and fees. Equitable relief. Jury trial. (a) Any person who suffers any ascertainable loss of money or property, real or personal, as a result of the use or employment of a method, act or practice prohibited by section 42-110b, may bring an action in the judicial district in which the plaintiff or defendant resides or has his principal place of business or is doing business, to recover actual damages. Proof of public interest or public injury shall not be required in any action brought under this section. The court may, in its discretion, award punitive damages and may provide such equitable relief as it deems necessary or proper. This is a CUTPA explainer from 2008 that talks about the court, not jury, awarding punitive damages http://www.shipmangoodwin.com/files.../Thedefense.pdf And while punitive damages would normally be capped at equal to attorney's fees in CT, CUTPA precedent allows them to exceed attorney's fees. Here's an article discussing that: https://damicopettinicchi.com/articles/connecticut-punitive-damages-laws-outdated-often-ineffective-and-should-be-changed/
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Oct 12, 2022 21:08
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Staluigi posted:Hasidic communities, especially recently with the new york area courts, are vehemently insular and so strictly observant that the majority of their practices are intentionally isolating. The leadership has doubled down on intentional isolation from the perverse secular world by banning internet access, cellphones, and any non-religious books from family homes. Men have to devote so much of their waking hours to religious study that they almost can't do anything else. Women are put under practically medieval restrictions and obligations as servants to their husband and have to pump out kids endlessly while handling all domestic tasks AND have to do a lot of the money earning so the father can stay doing endless religious study AND have a bunch of rules enforced on them to make them as invisible as possible AND have to follow a bunch of rules that make the mundane domestic tasks very time consuming. Kids get beaten like It's going out of style. Poverty is rampant because of the religious obligations mentioned above. Married women are frequently in need of very complex escape and sheltering needs, because leaving marriage is something that gets discouraged in nearly all cases, including ones with substantial abuse, and divorce is heavily shamed. So a lot of the women who leave are fully and vehemently cut off from support in the only community they've learned to survive in (by designed isolation). Marriages are usually arranged and happen as early as possible, and the hasidic community was one of the most strongly opposed to be laws banning child marriage. The level of isolation/treatment of women differs greatly between Hasidic sects. Chabadniks/Lubavitchers send their kids to ordinary colleges, use the internet/social media and interact frequently with the secular world. I have a Lubavicher aunt, granted she's baal teshuvah (grew up in a secular family and became more religious over time) so had received a full education herself but she's a public school teacher and managed to raise their nine children in between the two worlds, with some going to college (one to a PhD) and others pursuing trades or other work within the community. Satmars are the most extreme, they have the most stringent codes on modesty and try to keep totally separate and out of view of the outside world. For anyone interested in this I strongly recommend Frieda Vizel's blog and youtube channel, she is an ex-Hasid who does tours of Boro Park and Williamsburg (it sounds weird, but it's no different than tours of Amish country) and has a ton of insight into the idiosyncracies of everyday life within Brooklyn's Hasidic communities. https://friedavizel.com/blog/ She has an interesting perspective on the issue, basically agreeing with the overarching point but says that government interference is going to make the community fight harder against change and hurt the preexisting movement for change because it reinforces the message of government as the enemy trying to take X thing awayhttps://friedavizel.com/2022/09/13/thoughts-on-the-nyt-expose-on-hasidic-education/ I do disagree with her point about the Hasidic economy as an acceptable alternative to higher education, I think she paints too rosy a picture and is downplaying how many families are living in poverty.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:13
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https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/...ingawful.com%2F I don't know what I was expecting but Jones seems pretty chipper for someone just charged a billion dollars
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Oct 12, 2022 21:21
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projecthalaxy posted:I don't know what I was expecting but Jones seems pretty chipper for someone just charged a billion dollars Denial is the first stage of grief.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:31
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projecthalaxy posted:I don't know what I was expecting but Jones seems pretty chipper for someone just charged a billion dollars Rich guy denial coupled with his messianic complex/brain damage.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:31
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I hope the victims get every cent. But I'm pretty sure the only thing that will stop Alex is substantial jailtime, so hopefully his attempts to evade paying out lands him there.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:31
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So what I'm reading in so many words is that Jones got OJ Simpson'd in Connecticut.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:38
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Does Connecticut have a law similar to the Texas one that caps what the families can actually be awarded, or is he (theoretically) on the hook for the entire $1 billion if the amount doesn't change on appeal?
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Oct 12, 2022 21:50
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azflyboy posted:Does Connecticut have a law similar to the Texas one that caps what the families can actually be awarded, or is he (theoretically) on the hook for the entire $1 billion if the amount doesn't change on appeal? That is a Texas-specific law enacted by Abbott to be an rear end in a top hat and pull the ladder up after himself after he got his big cash damages.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:52
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azflyboy posted:Does Connecticut have a law similar to the Texas one that caps what the families can actually be awarded, or is he (theoretically) on the hook for the entire $1 billion if the amount doesn't change on appeal? CT does have caps on punitive damages, but these are compensatory damage figures. It really depends. We are in pretty much uncharted waters. If it wasn't Alex Jones, then I would assume that the it would get knocked down a bit. $90 million in damages for defamation of a regular person making $50k per year and death threats is pretty wild in any other scenario. I think the fact that it is Alex Jones is going to make people hesitant to do that.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:CT does have caps on punitive damages, but these are compensatory damage figures. ~No caps on punitive damages awarded by the judge under CUTPA~ (yet to be determined)
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Oct 12, 2022 22:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It really depends. We are in pretty much uncharted waters. If it wasn't Alex Jones, then I would assume that the it would get knocked down a bit. $90 million in damages for defamation of a regular person making $50k per year and death threats is pretty wild in any other scenario. I think the fact that it is Alex Jones is going to make people hesitant to do that. none of this is economic injury though. how much they make isn't relevant - what's relevant is what amount of money is needed to ameliorate the harm caused. that does mean that yes, alex jones killing these people would probably have resulted in lower damages though. i'm not a CT lawyer though (or defamation lawyer) so perhaps there's CT cases on point limiting what defamation damages can reasonably be. it's certainly possible they get tweaked around the margins but i don't think jones has nearly enough money for that to matter.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:03
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evilweasel posted:none of this is economic injury though. how much they make isn't relevant - what's relevant is what amount of money is needed to ameliorate the harm caused. that does mean that yes, alex jones killing these people would probably have resulted in lower damages though. i'm not a CT lawyer though (or defamation lawyer) so perhaps there's CT cases on point limiting what defamation damages can reasonably be. That is what I'm saying. OJ's judgement in his civil case for actually murdering two people was $33 million. A billion for harm caused by defamation is uncharted territory. I think Jones is probably a repugnant enough person that no judge is going to want to go easy on him. But, it's not like this is a totally normal level of compensation for the type of case or that the case itself was standard in any way. If this were some unknown person, I think it is more likely to get scaled down. But, in this case, who knows?
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Oct 12, 2022 22:06
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That is what I'm saying. OJ's judgement in his civil case for actually murdering two people was $33 million. A billion for harm caused by defamation is uncharted territory. Someone's earnings being garnished in perpetuity so that their work is primarily a relief fund for wronged parties is rare but not unprecedented.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:14
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Youth Decay posted:The level of isolation/treatment of women differs greatly between Hasidic sects. Chabadniks/Lubavitchers send their kids to ordinary colleges, use the internet/social media and interact frequently with the secular world. I have a Lubavicher aunt, granted she's baal teshuvah (grew up in a secular family and became more religious over time) so had received a full education herself but she's a public school teacher and managed to raise their nine children in between the two worlds, with some going to college (one to a PhD) and others pursuing trades or other work within the community. Satmars are the most extreme, they have the most stringent codes on modesty and try to keep totally separate and out of view of the outside world. I think her article very clearly comes from a perspective of wanting to protect her own in-group, with whatever rose-tinted blinders are necessary to defend it. At best, she's so deep in cognitive dissonance that she doesn't notice the massive and obvious internal contradictions in her own arguments. On the education side of things, she insists that actually Hasidic Jews all hate the total lack of secular education and secretly wish that it would change, and that actually it's totally about to change all on its own as long as no one comes in and tries to force them with draconian government oppression. She insists that the government coming in to force change would cause a backlash, and that such a confrontational approach would galvanize resistance. But then she pivots to an example that has nothing to do with force or the government: an activist campaign from ex-Hasids that "naively thought it would just ask the community to change" and "naively expected community cooperation" (as she puts it), spawning massive resistance to even a simple billboard campaign. And if you look closely, she doesn't actually address the lack of secular learning at all. She briefly mentions it, but it seems clear that the only educational improvements she hopes for are in the reduction of corporal punishment: she's fine with the lack of secular education and doesn't expect it to change or hope for it to change. On the economic side of things, it's just whataboutism. She goes on for paragraphs about how it's the responsibility of a society to prepare children for life within that society, while admitting that Hasidic schools see their own society as separate and don't give children even the most basic preparations to survive in secular society. But then she follows that up by implying it's the secular system's fault for being hard to navigate if you can barely speak English and don't know how to take tests or use a computer. While it's a fair point out of context, the context is way too important to put aside here. She's not talking about refugees or kids from badly-underfunded school districts here, she's talking about well-funded schools that are intentionally refusing to provide that basic education. It kind of feels like she's co-opting the language of the disadvantaged to defend a system that intentionally makes its own members disadvantaged in order to keep them dependent on that system. I agree that it's too hard to make a decent living if you don't have even a basic education, but hearing that in defense of a purposeful refusal by schools to provide a basic education is utterly absurd. And if you read down to the final note at the end, it makes her bias extremely clear. Faced with a 100% failure rate on a standardized test, she outright refuses to believe it. Despite repeatedly admitting in the article that Hasidic kids are not given a decent secular education, she's shocked by the assertion that they could possibly fail on secular tests, dismissing it with a simple "Hasidic kids are not illiterate or stupid". Instead, she insists that the numbers must be rigged somehow, insisting that a proper test would have at least one student passing out of sheer luck.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:15
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projecthalaxy posted:https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/...ingawful.com%2F What's that old saying? - "If you owe someone a thousand dollars you have a problem. If you owe someone a billion dollars they have the problem." Like, he already has a government Auditor in charge of his company because he hosed around in bankruptcy court, but I'm thinking he's still going to try to make it as difficult as possible for his victims to collect their pound of flesh.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:53
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I'm surprised they hit him so hard for this. The threats, lying, targeted harassment etc have seemed so normal for so long that it felt to me like they were just accepted as inevitable now for anyone who was outspoken against the Right. Like this was worth a billion bucks but it's the same poo poo pretty much anyone kiwifarms targeted got, and that's just "boys will be boys" by post-escalator standards.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:56
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DeathSandwich posted:What's that old saying? - "If you owe someone a thousand dollars you have a problem. If you owe someone a billion dollars they have the problem." Yeah, but what's the actual truth: "If you owe someone a billion dollars you actually do have a problem."
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Oct 12, 2022 22:58
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DeathSandwich posted:What's that old saying? - "If you owe someone a thousand dollars you have a problem. If you owe someone a billion dollars they have the problem." If nothing else, the footage from his reaction may be admissible down the line.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:59
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projecthalaxy posted:https://twitter.com/BrandyZadrozny/...ingawful.com%2F He is going to go the Lowtax route of blowing or otherwise burning through all his money and assets so that there will be nothing to collect and then violently repaint one lucky ceiling with the inside contents of his skull to escape any and all responsibility for it.
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Oct 12, 2022 23:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:kibbutzniks... That doesn't really go with the rest of the groups you mentioned. A kibbutz is a communal farm that got promoted early on by the Labor Zionists and is part of Israel's socialist legacy. Kibbutzniks tend not to be religious and just share everything, including childrearing. Think commune.
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Oct 12, 2022 23:07
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Epicurius posted:That doesn't really go with the rest of the groups you mentioned. A kibbutz is a communal farm that got promoted early on by the Labor Zionists and is part of Israel's socialist legacy. Kibbutzniks tend not to be religious and just share everything, including childrearing. Think commune. I wasn't saying they were the same ideologically. I was saying that all of them are groups that are basically living lifestyles completely foreign to American reform and conservative Jews. They aren't really representative of the "average Jew" in America - or even Israel.
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Oct 12, 2022 23:11
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nine-gear crow posted:He is going to go the Lowtax route of blowing or otherwise burning through all his money and assets so that there will be nothing to collect and then violently repaint one lucky ceiling with the inside contents of his skull to escape any and all responsibility for it. Most likely he'll just move to Hungary or some other chud-friendly country, operate from there, and get proceeds through a shell company/donations. Lowtax didn't have 800k people ready to open their wallets for him at the end. My secret fear is a consortium of 'free speech' rear end in a top hat billionaires just picking up the check. Musk, Lindell, Thiel and some 5-8 more, each grabbing a 70-million slice , would be a small hit for them compared to the clout they would gain in pissing off the libs, which is the only motivation they really have.
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Oct 12, 2022 23:12
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