Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk3: The Age of Cygnar Has Both Points and Rules

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk3: The Age of Cygnar Has Both Points and Rules

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Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

miniscule12 posted:

I'm spit balling here, but one thing they could have done is gone for a "miniatures agnostic" approach for legacy armies where you can just declare a mini represents a new mk4 stat block and later make models that could be used for those roles.

I think the big failing here is that the old models mean nothing now, there's no reason they can't just rename everything like GW did.

An "X, Y and Z now counts as A, and there'll be new sculpts by 2024" would probably go a long way.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 13:01

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 21:48

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

The Deleter posted:

Do not make another death thread, we've already seen multiple times what that leads to

Did it lead to death?

I bet it lead to death

# ? Oct 13, 2022 13:29

smug jeebus: Oct 26, 2008

No, but we got some good jokes

# ? Oct 13, 2022 13:40

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

The GW death thread led to a new era of prosperity and good games from GW, so why not do PP the same favor?

# ? Oct 13, 2022 16:37

Der Waffle Mous: Nov 27, 2009; In the grim future, there is only commerce.

I mean I'm not sure it's fair to be bummed that my mkii armies are no longer valid armies due to new subfaction restrictions but nevertheless I am bummed.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 17:10

koreban: Apr 4, 2008; I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.; Fun Shoe

moths posted:

The GW death thread led to a new era of prosperity and good games from GW, so why not do PP the same favor?

Do you see Matt Wilson pulling a Tom Kirby and getting the gently caress out of dodge before the company implodes?

# ? Oct 13, 2022 19:01

koreban: Apr 4, 2008; I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.; Fun Shoe

To be fair, he managed to do it with AEG, so it�s not quite the slam dunk without historical precedent I was going for.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 19:02

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

FrostyPox posted:

PP death pool thread when? I really don't see war machine growing when the cost of entry is so high.

Is there enough activity to cover more than one PP thread?

# ? Oct 13, 2022 20:50

miniscule12: Jan 8, 2020; HAHA YEAH HE PEED IN HIS OWN MOUTH I'M GONNA KEEP BRINGING IT UP.

Iron Crowned posted:

I think the big failing here is that the old models mean nothing now, there's no reason they can't just rename everything like GW did.

An "X, Y and Z now counts as A, and there'll be new sculpts by 2024" would probably go a long way.

An even better idea. Other companies will learn a lot from the death of PP.

neonchameleon posted:

Is there enough activity to cover more than one PP thread?

This is the death thread now.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 21:47

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Warmachine was already the worst game the company made before Mk4 was announced and it doesn't look like that's changing.

# ? Oct 14, 2022 06:40

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

Warmachine Mk. 4 launches in two weeks, apparently including retail sales. Leaving the rules aside, based on the Gencon models it's easy to feel like this is going to be ugly. Here's a careful and thoughtful post lifted from the Facebook group Warmachine & Hordes General Discussion by someone who just received his Gencon boxes (Gencon was the first week of August):

quote:

Obligatory "I got my GenCon boxes in, and here's my hot take on them" post. I would have given my personal opinions sooner, but...yeah, well, that's what I get for ordering 3 boxes.
Let's go ahead and get this out of the way up front: Yes, I've already submitted appropriate Mispack/Replacement requests, and I'll be following up with a separate e-mail to Feedback@PrivateerPress.com to supplement my "Is broke, plz replace" ticket.

I might post full unboxing videos once I get a chance to add captions to them, but for now here are the highlights.

All 3 boxes: Detail is (mostly) crisp and sharp where it needs to be. Each box came with more than enough magnets. Signs of incomplete cleaning (e.g. "detritus" and shiny-but-cured resin). Warping on long, thin parts consistent with insufficient supports during printing or improper handling during curing. All parts found to be extremely brittle and resistant to flexing. *MANY* remnants of partially removed supports and scarring from supports that were fully removed but that took divots of model material with them. Layer lines are not as bad as the "pre-preview" boxes sent out to various content creators, but are still consistent with what I've seen from other GenCon boxes. Individual results may vary, but my painting technique (primer, 2 layers of heavy drybrushing, various layers of GW Contrast paint) is insufficient to completely obscure them.

Khador: The biggest offender when it came to shiny-but-cured resin, indicating improper/incomplete cleaning. Support scarring and remnants were particularly bad on these parts, and some of the remnants did a drat good job masquerading as rivets near the edges of armor plates. 1 broken piece: The Ice Hammer snapped at the hand. Not unexpected, but disappointing. Also, one of the warjacks (I think it was the Great Bear) needed 3 magnets installed between each arm and its adjoining shoulder - it seems like the shoulder recess is too deep. Fortunately, I have magnets to spare.

Cygnar: More than the other boxes, "internal" supports remained completely intact in some places (between a foot and leg, or between voltaic coils). Support scarring/pitting still present on many parts. All of the "long" warjack weapons (Voltaic Spear & Javelin, Voltaic Broadsword) had a distinct warp to them indicating insufficient supports during printing or improper handling during curing. I do not feel comfortable attempting to repair/bend these due to how brittle everything is.

Orgoth: 1 broken piece: Tyrant Harpoon (broken at the thinnest point). Also, the only part in the lot that I would qualify as an actual "failed print" - the Jackal torso has what appear to be "pancaked" supports and print layers fused into the underside. Even more so than bent/warped pieces, I'm shocked that a part like this could make it through whatever QA checks are in place.

All in all, I'm unsurprised but still disappointed. We'll see how the Replacement Request goes, but I have serious concerns about the viability of this new 3D printing regime unless great strides are made with regard to resin choice, post-processing, and QA in general.

An insightful reply, followed by an almost glib response from Privateer Press:

some guy posted:

I'm now wondering if they do their supports in-house or use auto supports. Supporting for miniatures is a whole different ball game entirely, which is why there are professionals for that. You really shouldn't be seeing such heavy support removal issues and they should be confined to places where they aren't obvious given that these pieces are already all keyed up.
Anyone from PP can weigh in on this?

Doug Hamilton posted:

sure, we use professionals . They are in house. We have been printing minis for 10 years .

There are responses from people who got their boxes without broken parts or failed prints. But they're universally things like this:

quote:

Three boxes oh Khador and everything was fine. Yes things are are brittle but I know PP is aware of this and have faith in them to address it.

Acting on faith is quite the thing, given that Privateer Press is saying, in this same thread, that they're not going to fix the problem:

Stonehorse Gaming posted:

Hope you get your replacement parts pronto, and that they are up to scratch.
Hearing too many similar stories with too much regularity to have any faith in the 3D printed models now. Unless PP switch to HIPS I can not see me buying any MKIV items.

Doug Hamilton posted:

thousands of boxes shipped and you see a small handful because people happy don�t post or don�t want to be mocked for being fanbois

Stonehorse Gaming posted:

I see your point and for most things it stands true, happy customers make less noise essentially.
The issue here however is the frequency of the same problems we are seeing caused by a new approach to manufacturing on a large scale. Since PP switched Warmachine to 3D printing there has been a dramatic increase in people reporting similar issues.
We all know metal has become too expensive to continue as a medium, so a change was needed. PP are (at least to my knowledge) the only large player in the hobby to switch to 3D printing, other companies (even those smaller than PP) are going HIPS. It was a brave choice to switch to 3D printing, of that there is no argument, but it isn't up to the demand just yet.
I want PP to do well, I want Warmachine to regain its dominance in the hobby, I want people to experience the joy of the game... but, going 3D printing is I think going to be looked back on as a big mistake, if not the biggest mistake that PP made.

Doug Hamilton posted:

opinions vary...
as we see issues we are addressing them, such as redesigning standards to have more girth or making more fragile parts an extra piece. I�m not familiar with stonehorse gaming but I�m sure people give you advice and tips on why you will fail also. As always I respect everyone�s opinion even if I do not agree.

And here's a reply which identifies looming danger for Privateer Press:

another dude posted:

If the production "quality" is like this for the GenCon boxes, I can't imagine the state they are going to be in with the main army boxes.
While PP is more than happy to replace, I don't imagine retailers are going to be happy when customers contact them first informing them of warped, broken, or poorly moulded pieces.
Its a pipe dream to think customers won't want to return/complain to the stores they bought them from, which is going to alienate Retailers yet again.

To summarize

Privateer Press can't build the models fast enough to meet demand;
the models Privateer Press is sending out (in limited sets) are often broken, and if they aren't broken they often break after arrival when people try to paint or play with them;
because the material used are exceptionally brittle in a way that the 3D printing crowd is familiar with;
Privateer Press is dropping calls to authority in response to being told how to fix it, basically "We know what we're doing";
While at the same time implicitly acknowledging there are problems since Privateer Press has said they are making changes;
The plan to fix broken models is to either add supports or make them into separate pieces - which would reduce post manufacture support removal damage and decrease damage during shipping, respectively, but does nothing to fix the problem of the models shattering when dropped from six inches onto a wooden table; and
The QA process isn't robust enough to stop a patently defective model like the one in the picture from going out; but
Privateer Press going ahead with selling even bigger boxes at retail in two weeks.

There are people who will drop $200 on an army box, get broken models and just deal with it. Those are the dedicated fans. That describes most of the Gencon customers, and even that crowd has many people squawking. The problem of retail returns is real, but I'll call back to something from last week which seems like the bigger problem. Privateer Press has done nothing to attract new customers for years. The launch of a new edition is a good way of doing this. And all signs are that Privateer Press will squander the opportunity.

Returning player with gaps in their collection which otherwise fits one of the legacy army? Too bad, PP won't help you. New customer? Well, I hope you like Khador. And broken models with manufacturing errors. Which will just keep breaking because they're brittle. Existing customers? I hope you had the right models (yet to be announced) or you're in the same boat as returning customers.

Mk. 3 didn't have enough players left to handle the expected losses on an edition change over without replenishment. I am growing pessimistic that player replenishment is going to succeed.

# ? Oct 17, 2022 15:58

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

I feel like "Can't print fast enough to meet demand" will quickly taper off once the initial demand is met.

But yea when I first received my Preview Starter Kit I accidentally dropped one of the Jack torsos and a spiky bit broke :saddowns:

# ? Oct 17, 2022 16:10

rantmo: Jul 30, 2003; A smile better suits a hero

My heavy Cygnar jack's polearms, both of them, broke in transit and my warcaster took a fall and hit the floor. I was expecting it to break, and one arm did come off at the join but his hammer absolutely vaporized instead of just breaking. At some point I will email for replacements but I've cooled off on MK4 while getting really in to Kill Team so I just haven't bothered.

# ? Oct 17, 2022 16:24

Sab669: Sep 24, 2009

I've cooled off once I found out the only game store in my area plays on a Week Night lol. Even with working from home, by the time I log off, walk my dogs, feed them, feed myself, get the store, unpack models, setup a table and get 1 game in... It's just such a time commitment. Maybe if there was a store that played on the weekend I'd be more interested, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I've also been playing Moonbreaker, which is sort of a digital Miniatures game, and it scratches that "I miss minis games" itch well enough for me. Added bonus, you don't need to assemble miniatures which I lack the vocabulary to properly express how much I hate doing that. And being able to Ctrl+Z your painting mistakes is the best thing in the world.

# ? Oct 17, 2022 16:32

FrostyPox: Feb 8, 2012

The brittle material is the real "oof" here. A metal model exploding into its component parts when it hit the ground, or the ocassional very thin piece snapping is one thing (loving third edition Dark Eldar Talos arms :argh:

), loving shattering when it hits the ground is another. Thinkin I better fill out my Warcaster collection while PP is still around.

Of course, it's entirely possible they'll change course, but I wouldn't bet on it, and even if they do, how long would it take? Probably too long.

Especially considering there's no <$100 entry point anymore.

FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Oct 18, 2022

# ? Oct 18, 2022 00:06

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

...how often is "often"? I'm being serious, do we have any kind of actual data for this? I'm not talking about just social media posts.

Also, I thought they said the boxes were getting pushed to a December release? Did I misread something?

# ? Oct 18, 2022 03:47

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

There are no public numbers. Privateer Press' position is that the problems are uncommon. But also, they have publically said certain pieces are being redesigned into separate components to prevent breakage. The Khador 'jack's hammer is one I've seen mentioned. Take from that what you will. And there's no official post, it's stuff in comments (from Privateer Press staff) on Facebook.

The Khador army box is supposed to released at launch. It's the other two they've pushed back. Unless I missed an announcement on that front?

# ? Oct 18, 2022 15:57

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

They're going to launch with one box and no legacy support?

# ? Oct 18, 2022 16:25

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

Yes, the Orgoth and Cygnar are delayed until "later in the quarter" and they are proceeding with the release anyway. https://home.privateerpress.com/2022/10/04/mkiv-progress-report/

They'll still sell legacy stuff they have in stock, but not making new stuff.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 17:22

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

moths posted:

They're going to launch with one box and no legacy support?

It's the dumbest thing next to announcing a new edition before they had stock levels or a proper production in place.

So that is to say it's standard business practice from modern PP.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 17:32

Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

I still can't get over the squat everything strategy. There is literally no reason they couldn't have rolled at least some of the more common legacy models in with a disclaimer that new sculpts would be coming soon.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 17:46

smug jeebus: Oct 26, 2008

Part of me still wants to defend them but I got nothing

# ? Oct 18, 2022 17:50

Saalkin: Jun 29, 2008

Yeah this poo poo looks dire.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 17:56

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

It's completely baffling, since the only imaginable advantage of switching to 3d print was (ostensibly) the flexibility of not needing to retool between print runs.

(The actual advantage is that, on paper, it's cheap af.)

You can't run out of anything because you're only ever a few hours from having anything in stock!

So why aren't they doing that? Why completely focus production on one faction?

It's a safe bet that the other factions are getting resculpted and resliced to address some of the flaws. Someone probably noticed that anti-aliasing exists, and maybe they're redoing supports and orientation.

It sounds like their European printers might be involved in this, since the contracted professional printer hopefully knows what they're doing better than the PP in-house amateurs.

Iron Crowned posted:

I still can't get over the squat everything strategy. There is literally no reason they couldn't have rolled at least some of the more common legacy models in with a disclaimer that new sculpts would be coming soon.

The cynical answer is that to keep playing, you keep paying.

For real, it almost looks like they don't have access to their old setup. Maybe they sold everything to buy a print farm.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 18:07

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

moths posted:

It's completely baffling, since the only imaginable advantage of switching to 3d print was (ostensibly) the flexibility of not needing to retool between print runs.

(The actual advantage is that, on paper, it's cheap af.)

You can't run out of anything because you're only ever a few hours from having anything in stock!

So why aren't they doing that? Why completely focus production on one faction?

It's a safe bet that the other factions are getting resculpted and resliced to address some of the flaws. Someone probably noticed that anti-aliasing exists, and maybe they're redoing supports and orientation.

It sounds like their European printers might be involved in this, since the contracted professional printer hopefully knows what they're doing better than the PP in-house amateurs.

The cynical answer is that to keep playing, you keep paying.

For real, it almost looks like they don't have access to their old setup. Maybe they sold everything to buy a print farm.

I don't believe for a second that they have a professional printer on contract, honestly. The only reason the MonPoc kickstarter seems to be on track is because of Mythic.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 18:26

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

quote:

We are working with a UK-based 3D printing company that will be taking on a portion of our production to minimize the initial delay. In the future, they will supply our customers in the UK and EU, minimizing shipping time and expense and ensuring consistent availability of product to the UK and EU.

I read this again and you're right: This is all hope and best-case optimism.

If they had a contracted partner, they wouldn't be in this mess. At least in Europe.

E: they'd still be facing the problems of mass producing with 3D prints, and I wonder if that's leading professional 3d printers to balk or charge appropriate rates PP doesn't want to pay.

moths fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 18, 2022

# ? Oct 18, 2022 18:34

Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

moths posted:

The cynical answer is that to keep playing, you keep paying.

For real, it almost looks like they don't have access to their old setup. Maybe they sold everything to buy a print farm.

Again though that's solved by "we're currently not producing a model for the Firefly Warjack, but a new sculpt is slated for Q2 2023" would at least make the MKIV launch at least more interesting than Khador vs Khador forever.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 18:38

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

The best explanation I�ve read is that this is a half-hearted attempt to juice their company and make it seem like they have an active, viable product, as a step towards being purchased by some larger company (Asmodee? Hasbro?). There�s no actual plan to make Mk 4 a viable, living game over the long term.

They never really recovered from DC leaving - the wound just took a few years to bleed out.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 18:50

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

The best explanation I�ve read is that this is a half-hearted attempt to juice their company and make it seem like they have an active, viable product, as a step towards being purchased by some larger company (Asmodee? Hasbro?). There�s no actual plan to make Mk 4 a viable, living game over the long term.

They never really recovered from DC leaving - the wound just took a few years to bleed out.

If you believe the chatter, they were originally in talks to be bought by Asmodee and also to develop what is now Crisis Protocol. The brain drain of their viable design staff all to Atomic Mass does seem to indicate the latter.

And yeah, Jason Soles is absolutely not a replacement for DC.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 19:21

CaptCommy: Aug 13, 2012; The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a goat.

zerofiend posted:

If you believe the chatter, they were originally in talks to be bought by Asmodee and also to develop what is now Crisis Protocol. The brain drain of their viable design staff all to Atomic Mass does seem to indicate the latter.

And yeah, Jason Soles is absolutely not a replacement for DC.

The crisis protocol thing isn't a rumor, they had the license and just didn't really do much with it. There's even a thank you to Privateer Press in the core set rulebook for MCP

# ? Oct 18, 2022 19:26

Ashcans: Jan 2, 2006; Let's do the space-time warp again!

Wow, did not realize that. MCP is a really good game, it's my current go-to for low-count playing and I've really been enjoying it.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 19:31

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

The rumor is that all the people who were actively developing it jumped to their own studio and took the rules with them.

# ? Oct 18, 2022 23:27

Crazy Ferret: May 11, 2007; Welp

Almost my entire group that was into Warmachine switched to MCP in the last year. I swear listening to them chat about it is almost like hearing Warmachine chatter, but with a bizarro Marvel filter.

Still, I don't understand this at all.

# ? Oct 19, 2022 00:00

FrostyPox: Feb 8, 2012

Perhaps The Good Ending is Atomic Mass buys PP's IPs and does things properly

# ? Oct 19, 2022 01:40

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

PP's biggest barricade to success has been Matt and his wife for some time now imo. They're serious cheapskates.

# ? Oct 19, 2022 03:07

stabbington: Sep 1, 2007; It doesn't feel right to kill an unarmed man... but I'll get over it.

This has always been true, tbh. Matt's biggest goal in life is to be a Hollywood Guy and the art and miniatures were always a side gig. He doesn't give a poo poo, it's mostly a way to fund his hobby of making terrible movies.

# ? Oct 19, 2022 03:32

Exinos: Mar 1, 2009; OSHA approved squiq

stabbington posted:

This has always been true, tbh. Matt's biggest goal in life is to be a Hollywood Guy and the art and miniatures were always a side gig. He doesn't give a poo poo, it's mostly a way to fund his hobby of making terrible movies.

Oh God, he's the Chris Roberts of tabletop gaming.

Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk4: Cyriss Citizen

# ? Oct 19, 2022 06:05

S.J.: May 19, 2008; Just who the hell do you think we are?

Nah, he used to give a poo poo at least. He intentionally built a game towards aping a competitive mtg style rules system on purpose because he used to play that competitively back in the day as well do some art. Although since mid-late Mk2 he doesn't seem to have been nearly as involved and things definitely changed.

# ? Oct 20, 2022 08:30

zerofiend: Dec 23, 2006

S.J. posted:

Nah, he used to give a poo poo at least. He intentionally built a game towards aping a competitive mtg style rules system on purpose because he used to play that competitively back in the day as well do some art. Although since mid-late Mk2 he doesn't seem to have been nearly as involved and things definitely changed.

I mean, the time he wasn't involved is arguably the healthiest time of the game. It was him stepping back in more actively that coincided with mk3's terrible launch and this current debacle

# ? Oct 20, 2022 09:52

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 21:48

smug jeebus: Oct 26, 2008

Curious to see how divisive this sculpt will be. I hate it myself, along with the 'Irusk with a different hat' that they posted to the website. Aside from the ridiculous chariot I really do like the Stormguard though so I am rooting for them to get their poo poo together.

E: now that I'm thinking about it, making half of your initial factions just resculpts of previous models was kinda dumb.

smug jeebus fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Oct 21, 2022

# ? Oct 21, 2022 05:29

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Warmachine & Hordes Thread Mk3: The Age of Cygnar Has Both Points and Rules

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