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Here's an ABC News source of the situation in Haiti, dated October 14, 2022. Keep in mind that the horrible stuff described has been going on for quite some time; things in Haiti went to Hell after President Moise's assassination in July of 2021. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/haiti-gang-makes-demands-test-power-government-91520106 One particularly strong rebel power player, Cherizier and his gang, is alleged to have committed atrocities. "But the demand to void arrest warrants would likely be rejected by the government, which has long sought to arrest Cherizier on charges including orchestrating one of the country’s worse massacres, in which dozens of men, women and children were slain." Another standout quote: "In addition, gangs are increasingly raping women and girls, as well as boys and to some extent men, to exert and retain control over territory, according to a U.N. Human Rights report released Friday." There's additional horrible details from the U.N. report in that article. Also mentions of spreading cholera, malnutrition, and inability to get medical care. Children are especially at risk. Yes, the US has done a lot of bad poo poo. That's indisputable. The situation is Haiti is so bad right now that I'm convinced that US intervention won't make it worse, and probably will make it better.
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Oct 16, 2022 23:59
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Victar posted:Yes, the US has done a lot of bad poo poo. That's indisputable. The situation is Haiti is so bad right now that I'm convinced that US intervention won't make it worse, and probably will make it better. To your credit, this same thing has been said by liberals about loving around with Haiti since maybe the mid 20th century, it’s just that it’s never been true. Clinton had to apologize to Haiti for how his administration treated them, and Wikileaks showed the Obama administration forcefully arguing against them raising their minimum wage, which still would’ve been under a dollar an hour. So what makes you think that, assuming you know these things?
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Oct 17, 2022 00:03
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I am going to assume Haiti doesn’t have any natural resources the United States wants or else we would have intervened already.
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Oct 17, 2022 00:05
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FlapYoJacks posted:I am going to assume Haiti doesn’t have any natural resources the United States wants or else we would have intervened already. So you think we do these for humanitarian reasons? Because in my experience, we generally do stuff to preserve the international order we are at the top of (the hegemon I always talk about) and we’d be invading Haiti to ramp down contradictions produced by capitalism. If not for financial reasons, why did we interfere with them raising their minimum wage? Why would we care? If you can answer that, you’ve got an answer for why we’d do this, and it’s money, in my opinion. We do not want what is best for Haiti, we want what is best for us, and if Haiti is somehow in the way of that we’ll rectify it, with our standard tools of economic and political domination, and the military if those methods of coercion aren’t effective. Seen it over and over, so I don’t think we’re doing this out of care for Haiti, but more of a sense of dominance and chauvinism.
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Oct 17, 2022 00:23
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So like, was the 2010 earthquake response also an exercise in dominance?
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Oct 17, 2022 00:40
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selec posted:We do not want what is best for Haiti, we want what is best for us, and if Haiti is somehow in the way of that we’ll rectify it, with our standard tools of economic and political domination, and the military if those methods of coercion aren’t effective. Seen it over and over, so I don’t think we’re doing this out of care for Haiti, but more of a sense of dominance and chauvinism. I get that we, the US, want what's best for us. A Haiti overrun by gangs that rape, murder, and extort is not good for us. What makes me think that US intervention will turn out better this time? We're not violating Haiti's sovereignty. We've been asked through official channels to intervene. We'll have at least some support from the people currently being raped, murdered, extorted, and terrorized by gangs. And yes, I do have a flicker of optimism left that the US can learn from its past mistakes. Sometimes, we can learn. Not all of the time. Yes, I do have a flicker of hope that President Biden is not completely incompetent. He did end the war in Afghanistan, even if it was ended in a sloppy way and with a war crime (the drone bombing of an aid worker and his family) that was never prosecuted. I'm convinced that Biden doesn't want to keep troops in Haiti any longer than necessary.
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Oct 17, 2022 00:42
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Tiny Timbs posted:So like, was the 2010 earthquake response also an exercise in dominance? If you make a country poor, you gotta do poo poo like this to ensure the controlling relationship makes at least some kind of sense. Poverty is THE issue in Haiti, yet somehow we couldn’t tolerate them raising the minimum wage to 61 cents an hour because that might increase American underwear budgets. Hanes profit margins were more important to the Obama administration than the ability for millions of people to claw their way out of poverty. https://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-haiti-minimum-wage-the-nation-2011-6?amp Of course we’re going to give them handouts after a disaster, but perpetuate policies that cause untold misery for them day-to-day, that’s what we do with the poor here. It’s the American Way.
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Oct 17, 2022 00:45
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selec posted:“The United States has long been reluctant to deploy military forces in Haiti” is a blatant lie for any reasonable understanding of “long” by individuals who are not dogs. That’s some real loving consent manufacturing being done when that is stated outright as a fact. The article says "forcing the Biden administration — long reluctant to intervene in Haiti militarily —" not "the United States".
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Oct 17, 2022 00:51
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Man everyday I learn some new way Obama was a massive scumbag.
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Oct 17, 2022 00:53
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The article says "forcing the Biden administration — long reluctant to intervene in Haiti militarily —" not "the United States". 
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Oct 17, 2022 01:04
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Victar posted:I get that we, the US, want what's best for us. A Haiti overrun by gangs that rape, murder, and extort is not good for us. The interventions do not decrease the amount of rape and murder.
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Oct 17, 2022 01:30
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The interventions do not decrease the amount of rape and murder. Rule of law, defined as the political situation where every citizen is subject to the law, would decrease the amount of rape and murder. Haiti has not been able to establish rule of law since July 2021. Will US intervention successfully help Haiti establish democratic rule of law? I don't know. I can't see the future, and the only reasons I have for hope are the ones I've given. You have the history of US intervention in Haiti supporting your position, but history is not a perfect predictor of the future. What alternative is there to US intervention? Doing nothing? We've been doing nothing for a while now. Sending only humanitarian aid, when the extortion of criminal gangs means that a lot if not the majority of that aid will go straight to those criminal gangs? Haiti's situation hasn't been improving on its own for nearly a year and a half. It's been deteriorating.
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Oct 17, 2022 02:30
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Isn't this about sending in blue helmets as well?
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Oct 17, 2022 02:37
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You're 100% right! I was catching up with the thread and thought you were referring to the similar phrase in the Miami Herald article you posted. Sorry about that
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Oct 17, 2022 02:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The interventions do not decrease the amount of rape and murder. Got a source for this claim regarding current day Haiti?
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Oct 17, 2022 03:16
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Spoke Lee posted:Isn't this about sending in blue helmets as well? Yes. The goal is a U.N. peacekeeping force that was pushed for by the U.N. Secretary General and Haiti. Haiti has actually been asking the U.S. and Canada to send troops since early 2021, but they have both refused and said they wouldn't do it unless the U.N. was involved.
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Oct 17, 2022 03:20
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Kalit posted:Got a source for this claim regarding current day Haiti? Awfully specific phrasing there. The last time the blue helmets were there they raped underage girls on an industrial scale. Or maybe that was the time they introduced a cholera epidemic. 'Intervention' in Haiti is and continues to be solely to punish them for the slave rebellion over a century ago.
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Oct 17, 2022 03:49
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Victar posted:
military intervention, including UN intervention, vs securing humanitarian aid and reducing its hijacking, are related but potentially different concepts; it's not particularly uncommon for large-scale aid efforts to have security to at least keep supplies or recipients from being robbed right there at the point of service i don't have a strong opinion on the particular situation in haiti except for A) if the UN at large wants some form of intervention that's way better than the US wanting it and B) current situation seems untenable Ghost Leviathan posted:Awfully specific phrasing there. This is dnd, so it would be good for you to support your allegations rather than making people look them up for you. that said, the underage rape situation was a very specific contingent of sri lankans (  ), which does speak very poorly of the UN's ability to handle lovely militaries of member statesI'd still broadly say blue helmets are probably an improvement on either Haitian government troops or whatever words you would like to use for the anti-government militants. I also haven't seen "developing world militaries with a history of war crimes are the reason UN interventions suck" much before, it'd be a novel argument.
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Oct 17, 2022 04:10
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Victar posted:Rule of law, defined as the political situation where every citizen is subject to the law, would decrease the amount of rape and murder. Haiti has not been able to establish rule of law since July 2021. there are a lot of things the US can be accused of as regards Haiti over the past hundred years; "doing nothing" is not one of them doing nothing good, sure, but doing nothing? god, what they would give for us to merely be doing nothing.
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Oct 17, 2022 04:52
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Do nothing? Lol. Didn’t the assassins gather in Miami before setting out? It’s basically assumed that the assassination was orchestrated by the US. At the very least, the US was involved. The US is invading to keep their vassal state under its thumb, simple as. The next government will probably have slave markets just like Libya did We are not a good country. We don’t do this poo poo for humanitarian reasons. That’s just what they tell us so we give them our consent. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 17, 2022 16:44
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What should be done to help Haiti out? The US' record is appalling, but it sounds like a pretty dire situation that requires some kind of intervention.
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Oct 17, 2022 16:51
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theCalamity posted:Do nothing? Lol. Didn’t the assassins gather in Miami before setting out? It’s basically assumed that the assassination was orchestrated by the US. At the very least, the US was involved. So.... if you think the US government is involved with the assassination, how does Emmanuel Sanon fit into your theory? 
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Oct 17, 2022 16:52
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tristeham fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 17:14
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Eric Cantonese posted:What should be done to help Haiti out? The US' record is appalling, but it sounds like a pretty dire situation that requires some kind of intervention. Oh the U.S definitely has a ton of "help" in store for Haiti.
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Oct 17, 2022 17:42
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theCalamity posted:Do nothing? Lol. Didn’t the assassins gather in Miami before setting out? It’s basically assumed that the assassination was orchestrated by the US. At the very least, the US was involved. i don't believe it is basically assumed the assassination was orchestrated by the USexcept in conspiracy-theory dominated insular communities, but you could always try posting support for the idea that sane people draw that conclusion of note, virtually everyone who commits a crime that involves multiple people that is committed on american soil first gathers in the united states before committing that crime and i do not believe it is generally considered, among sane people, that all crime in the US is orchestrated by the US government
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Oct 17, 2022 17:48
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evilweasel posted:i don't believe it is basically assumed the assassination was orchestrated by the USexcept in conspiracy-theory dominated insular communities, but you could always try posting support for the idea that sane people draw that conclusion I wouldn't call basic reasoning a "conspiracy theory" especially given the U.S history of Haiti intervention which can be charitably described as "stomping them back down whenever they get too uppity" e: The "insane" position that needs evidence is the idea that U.S intervention would ever actually help. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Yinlock fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 17:52
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Yinlock posted:I wouldn't call basic reasoning a "conspiracy theory" especially given the U.S history of Haiti intervention which can be charitably described as "stomping them back down whenever they get too uppity" This is kind of telling on yourself that you don't know what you're talking about here. Moïse was considered a U.S. ally and was backed by the Trump administration when he tried to overstay his term in office. He was also buddies with U.S. textile and oil manufacturing companies.
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Oct 17, 2022 17:58
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This is kind of telling on yourself that you don't know what you're talking about here. This makes it even more puzzling that anyone would think that U.S intervention wouldn't just be another round of murder and theft
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Oct 17, 2022 18:16
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Yinlock posted:I wouldn't call basic reasoning a "conspiracy theory" especially given the U.S history of Haiti intervention which can be charitably described as "stomping them back down whenever they get too uppity" i would appreciate the "basic reasoning" that went from "the assassins gathered in miami" (as well as a reliable source on the details of that) to "many sane, sensible people believe the US orchestrated the assassination" or "it is sane and reasonable to conclude the US orchestrated the assassination" so that i can evaluate your characterization of that reasoning
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Oct 17, 2022 18:27
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We need to intervene to clear up the mess from the last intervention and assistance package is standard US foreign policy now.
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Oct 17, 2022 19:51
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Haiti has actually been asking the U.S. and Canada to send troops since early 2021, but they have both refused and said they wouldn't do it unless the U.N. was involved. Has Haiti been asking for this? Or has the government of Haiti been asking for this, because there seems to be some antipathy towards US or U.N. intervention in part because of Cholera outbreaks and other events. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_Haiti_cholera_outbreak#Outbreak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti The parts of note are the bits in the first Wikipedia article detailing how US security services knew and attempted to downplay the potential Cholera outbreaks source. If this is inappropriate for this thread, I do apologise.
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Oct 17, 2022 21:31
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Josef bugman posted:Has Haiti been asking for this? Or has the government of Haiti been asking for this What entity would you consider authorized to express the desires of Haiti as a whole?
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Oct 17, 2022 21:39
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haveblue posted:What entity would you consider authorized to express the desires of Haiti as a whole? I know that in the US, the country is united as one, behind the president. It's probably the same elsewhere. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 17, 2022 21:43
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haveblue posted:What entity would you consider authorized to express the desires of Haiti as a whole? Not a dictator who may have had a hand in the assassination of his predecessor. I think you should look at what has happened every other time you tried to "do something" and not go with "give military vehicles to the person oppressing people" or "send in 'peace keepers'" considering their track records.
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Oct 17, 2022 21:48
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haveblue posted:What entity would you consider authorized to express the desires of Haiti as a whole? Probably not the entity that has been postponing elections for about a year (three years for the parliament) after the assassination of the President over a year ago. A government lead by a man who's been accused of helping plan the assassination.
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Oct 17, 2022 21:53
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Josef bugman posted:Not a dictator who may have had a hand in the assassination of his predecessor. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:[The government of] Haiti has actually been asking the U.S. and Canada to send troops since early 2021, but they have both refused and said they wouldn't do it unless the U.N. was involved. There, I explicitly added the implicit assumption to the post you're objecting to 
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Oct 17, 2022 21:59
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Kalit posted:There, I explicitly added the implicit assumption to the post you're objecting to Do you think the people of Haiti, of whom there are 9,000 less due to U.N. troops spreading Cholera in the nation, will want this? Do you think I was just referring to the US alone here? I do not think the current president of Haiti represents the people of Haiti. Even by the standards of other nations.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:15
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Josef bugman posted:Do you think the people of Haiti, of whom there are 9,000 less due to U.N. troops spreading Cholera in the nation, will want this? Do you think I was just referring to the US alone here? Aren't you hitting on a paradox here? Sure, yes a dictator by definition can't really represent his people fine. if that's the case, the UN would want to make sure the people are being giving the humanitarian aid they need by passing their sovereignty which as you stated can't be given by a dictator.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:24
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Mooseontheloose posted:Aren't you hitting on a paradox here? Sure, yes a dictator by definition can't really represent his people fine. if that's the case, the UN would want to make sure the people are being giving the humanitarian aid they need by passing their sovereignty which as you stated can't be given by a dictator. I suppose. But it only represents a paradox if you think that "doing something" is more moral than not doing something. In this instance can you see a likely way that things will improve through intervention?
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Oct 17, 2022 22:32
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So what's the approach the international community should take? By all accounts the situation has deteriorated precipitously. 'Sorry but we can't help you with the problems we helped cause, because we'd just be self serving about it' is the same conclusion as the idiot I was arguing with on YouTube comments who was complaining about how 'we're always giving handouts and bailing Haiti out.' Yes I'm aware of the awful history, but what now?
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Oct 17, 2022 22:36
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