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Josef bugman posted:I suppose. But it only represents a paradox if you think that "doing something" is more moral than not doing something. In this instance can you see a likely way that things will improve through intervention? Without knowing what the UN's plan is, I can't say really but i don't think this is the US requesting help on an imperialism because they are trying to come up with some sort of international response.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:39
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MixMasterMalaria posted:Yes I'm aware of the awful history, but what now? I mean I am not a smart person. But I would imagine stop loving the drat beehive would be a good start. Don't keep doing poo poo that was bad earlier and expect a different result. Mooseontheloose posted:Without knowing what the UN's plan is, I can't say really but i don't think this is the US requesting help on an imperialism because they are trying to come up with some sort of international response. I response to the bolded bit do you think it will help? In response to the unbolded bit, I think aiming to religitimise the idea of a "rules based international order" that the USA happens to be Primus inter Pares of could be the cynics answer. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 17, 2022 22:41
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MixMasterMalaria posted:So what's the approach the international community should take? By all accounts the situation has deteriorated precipitously. 'Sorry but we can't help you with the problems we helped cause, because we'd just be self serving about it' is the same conclusion as the idiot I was arguing with on YouTube comments who was complaining about how 'we're always giving handouts and bailing Haiti out.' Yes I'm aware of the awful history, but what now? If you're aware of the awful history, what is your informed opinion on how to move forward there? I'm not as informed, so I'd love your educated take.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:47
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MixMasterMalaria posted:So what's the approach the international community should take? By all accounts the situation has deteriorated precipitously. 'Sorry but we can't help you with the problems we helped cause, because we'd just be self serving about it' is the same conclusion as the idiot I was arguing with on YouTube comments who was complaining about how 'we're always giving handouts and bailing Haiti out.' Yes I'm aware of the awful history, but what now? Put Cuba in charge of the relief effort, with absolute authority over the UN coalition. Not joking. We fund it, Cuba runs it. No US or French boots to increase trust and cultural sensitivity.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:53
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MixMasterMalaria posted:So what's the approach the international community should take? Pay back all the money that's been stolen from it (inflation adjusted, with interest).
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Oct 17, 2022 23:00
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cgeq posted:Pay back all the money that's been stolen from it (inflation adjusted, with interest). This is both correct and, at the moment, logistically tricky. If the current government isn't legitimate enough to say "please send us UN troops to unfuck the security situation", how on earth is it legitimate enough to steward however many dozens of billions of reparations? It would really help if we had some semblance of knowledge of Haitian public opinion re intervention.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:10
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I haven't got a single family member back home who isn't absolutely in favor of US intervention at this point because they're already poor and dispossessed as poo poo and most of their livelihood is tied to work in and around port au prince One in-law is against any 'interferences' but that's largely because he's descended from papa doc's enforcers and he'd loooooooooooove the violent purging + dictatorship solution, he's totally ready to be a jackboot
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Oct 17, 2022 23:29
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GreyjoyBastard posted:This is both correct and, at the moment, logistically tricky. If the current government isn't legitimate enough to say "please send us UN troops to unfuck the security situation", how on earth is it legitimate enough to steward however many dozens of billions of reparations? Our priors are that "this is bad." We don't have compelling evidence to suggest otherwise. The "experts" in the foreign policy blob have been consistently wrong about the long-term effects of US intervention - usually in a way that benefits capitalist/MIC interests. In other words, we should use the precautionary principle when intervening in countries decision-makers don't understand.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:32
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From what I gather, much of Haiti is divided between warring gangs in support of one leader or another, and they intercept any aid that arrives rather than distribute it, thus famine and cholera. Public opinion does not necessarily enter into it. I don't really see a way around a military intervention unless you're willing to live with the consequences of "do nothing."
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Oct 17, 2022 23:33
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Sodomy Hussein posted:From what I gather, much of Haiti is divided between warring gangs in support of one leader or another, and they intercept any aid that arrives rather than distribute it, thus famine and cholera. Public opinion does not necessarily enter into it.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:34
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cat botherer posted:Why would you think that us putting the thumb on the scale for our favored strongman would fix this? Well, we can also just drop food without "security" guarantees of any kind and let the Haitians sort it out. Aside from the humanitarian costs, technically that would hinder Ariel Henry, who has been implicated in Moďse's assassination. "Do nothing" is a not a neutral choice.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:53
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Well, we can also just drop food without "security" guarantees of any kind and let the Haitians sort it out. Aside from the humanitarian costs, technically that would hinder Ariel Henry, who has been implicated in Moďse's assassination.
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Oct 17, 2022 23:58
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On the plus side, securing humanitarian aid at least at point of service is... not a solved problem, exactly, but one with which the world has a lot of experience and can generally make somewhat work. That seems like a sensible enough minimum to me (and one people don't generally pay enough attention to to post about  ).
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Oct 18, 2022 00:00
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Josef bugman posted:I mean I am not a smart person. But I would imagine stop loving the drat beehive would be a good start. Don't keep doing poo poo that was bad earlier and expect a different result. Completely agree, and I'm also not a smart person, but I see a conceptual difference between invited multilateral intervention in a failed state and unilateral action to say... overthrow Aristide or support hegemony via sending the Duvaliers arms. Jaxyon posted:If you're aware of the awful history, what is your informed opinion on how to move forward there? I'm not as informed, so I'd love your educated take. This is a very fair question and i wish i had a ready answer or strategy i could confidently advocate. Unfortunately, i would not consider myself particularly well informed. I had the pleasure and distress of reading some of Paul Farmer's work on Haiti a while back, his book 'the Uses of Haiti' was a great starting place at understanding the historic currents and dynamics that have underpinned the horrific and cynical treatment of the Haitian people, but it was published in 1994 and so much has happened since then. I've tried to stay somewhat engaged with the topic but my knowledge of the situation as it is now consists of pretty broad strokes and zero expertice. selec posted:Put Cuba in charge of the relief effort, with absolute authority over the UN coalition. Not joking. We fund it, Cuba runs it. No US or French boots to increase trust and cultural sensitivity. This is an interesting proposal, but seems pretty far from realistic given the political situation involved with the cuban relationship with a certain prominent UN member. Do you see a path to this or would you have a plan B if that doesn't work? cgeq posted:Pay back all the money that's been stolen from it (inflation adjusted, with interest). Strongly agree, but to whom / via what channels / how do you deal with sending reparations to people when there's (allegedly) an armed paramilitary currently squeezing the populace? I'm asking this stuff because Haiti had suffered tremendously and imo we (US and France) really do owe them big time.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:07
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MixMasterMalaria posted:This is a very fair question and i wish i had a ready answer or strategy i could confidently advocate. Unfortunately, i would not consider myself particularly well informed. I had the pleasure and distress of reading some of Paul Farmer's work on Haiti a while back, his book 'the Uses of Haiti' was a great starting place at understanding the historic currents and dynamics that have underpinned the horrific and cynical treatment of the Haitian people, but it was published in 1994 and so much has happened since then. I've tried to stay somewhat engaged with the topic but my knowledge of the situation as it is now consists of pretty broad strokes and zero expertice. Would you guess you are more, or less, informed than the folks disagreeing with you?
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Oct 18, 2022 00:12
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What's changing as we speak compared to how bad the situation already has been is the gang lockdowns on power finally degrading the situation so bad that there are no means by which to provide supplies or water to thousands upon thousands of people, even on a basic level, so: serious serious cholera outbreak time. Henry has no tools to contain dechoukaj now spreading up north, it's only going to get worse! The appeals to the US have been going on for a long time, but they refuse to go in not as part of operations mostly helmed by UN or similar. On the 6th binuh just outright called for a humanitarian corridor over the issue of varreux terminal, which has now been blocked so long that many health centers have closed and there's no more water treatment services. Lack of drinking water is going to cause cholera to explode in a dramatic way, cannot understress The gang situation is absolutely loving crazy, you don't want details. It is not safe for girls or women in many places. Some relatives are taking temporary refuge in gonaives with other friends, and we will be sheltering a child up here in the US because she can take up residence here and we got over the fiction of it being ok to have her split time between the countries. There's currently a lot of absolute bullshit in this thread, like comical levels, and while I'm not sure how much of it I want to emotionally deal with (lol) given how I hear about it on the daily and expect relatives to start falling over dead real quick, a good thing to hope for is that you introduce more commentary by people with significant familiarity with Haiti I will however up and outright say Ghost Leviathan posted:'Intervention' in Haiti is and continues to be solely to punish them for the slave rebellion over a century ago. This is a case of "oversimplify things so hard you become completely wrong" which sucks because there's so much fascinating nuance in how Haiti does get abused And theCalamity posted:Do nothing? Lol. Didn’t the assassins gather in Miami before setting out? It’s basically assumed that the assassination was orchestrated by the US. At the very least, the US was involved. You have no idea what you're talking about and the discussion will be better if it instantly disregards what you think is "basically assumed"
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Oct 18, 2022 00:14
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Staluigi posted:I haven't got a single family member back home who isn't absolutely in favor of US intervention at this point because they're already poor and dispossessed as poo poo and most of their livelihood is tied to work in and around port au prince My vague impression talking to a few diaspora folks around here and seeing some interviews of Haitians on YouTube is that the situation in the capital has grown desperate enough / gov has little enough legitimacy that they're willing to entertain intervention. That doesn't make it a good idea and my 'impression' is not consent for anything, but it seems like some kind of intervention is going to happen and it would probably be good if there was some consensus on what it might involve that would have the best ratio of benefit to harm. May I ask if you're from Haiti?
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Oct 18, 2022 00:18
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cat botherer posted:Again though, even in times like after the earthquake, intervention has done more harm that good. Every intervention the US has done in Haiti has been, in part, justified by your reasoning. It always turns out the same way. "Do nothing" is not a neutral choice. It is the less-worse choice, given history. "Doing something" is a worse choice. So just so I'm clear, what is your take on what if any actions should be taken by foreign governments? If I am to believe any number of news reports and general sentiment of people ITT better-read on this topic, Haiti is about to become post-apocalyptic without intervention.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:18
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A great way for folks to indicate whether they care about Haiti beyond scoring a point in whatever political stance they champion would be for them to give a detailed nuanced view of what is going on there and what they think should be done. (not referring to Staluigi)
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Oct 18, 2022 00:22
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Sodomy Hussein posted:So just so I'm clear, what is your take on what if any actions should be taken by foreign governments? If I am to believe any number of news reports and general sentiment of people ITT better-read on this topic, Haiti is about to become post-apocalyptic without intervention.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:23
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Don't think it would be unhinged to say our nations and systems just don't do "the right thing". The "right thing" may be achieved as a by-product of the real goal, or the intent to do "the right thing" may exist (in a cynical political / electoral way), but there's no reason to think we're capable of global altruism for the sake of global altruism, or even justice. We can't even provide proper equitable sustainable acts domestically, only short sighted preservation of the status quo. Stability peace and order are important to a predictable acquisition of profit. Not sure if I believe proper altruism exists (I'm sure that's a whole can of worms) but I'd bet individuals and small groups are far more capable of it than something like a large wealthy nation. Edit* basically "doing the right thing", "helping people", "protecting the future" is very much not the point of any major power on this planet. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 00:26
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Jaxyon posted:Would you guess you are more, or less, informed than the folks disagreeing with you? Difficult to tell, but if I'm any more informed then it's not by enough to give my opinion authority over my interlocutors'. Imo the resources that have been plundered + the sum total of oppression and political violence wrought by the internstional community to Haiti's civic decelopment + the current geopolitical / economic milieu + the natural disasters they've faced + recent arms flowing into the country make recovery without assistance extremely difficult to the point of unlikely. The catch 22 is accepting intervention like a Lucy football and getting screwed yet again vs going it alone when the institutions have collapsed, food and fuel are scarce, and organized crime is on the rise. It's totally hosed and there's no silver bullet but I do believe we have some kind of obligation to put our resources at Haiti's disposal. MixMasterMalaria fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 00:26
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Staluigi posted:I haven't got a single family member back home who isn't absolutely in favor of US intervention at this point because they're already poor and dispossessed as poo poo and most of their livelihood is tied to work in and around port au prince I missed this post and I have approximately infinity questions about Haiti on the ground, as saddening as the answers would probably be. Thanks for chiming in.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:29
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cat botherer posted:It's been post-apocalyptic for a couple centuries now. This is kind of a weird horseshoe theory version of "shithole countries" sentiment. Haiti has absolutely not been "post-apocalyptic" for centuries. If you can't see the difference between two levels of bad where: A is "economy is growing, but poverty is widespread. A lot of the best and brightest leave the island for other opportunities." and B is "there is literally no potable water, people can't leave or enter the island without being killed or robbed, the country is divided up among several gangs who have all out war in the streets daily, and the U.N. describing the current state of Haitian society as 'rape is now the primary weapon of control' for many gangs that effectively run the country." Then, you're being a little silly. Thanks for the post. I really appreciate it and would love to hear more. I know the history of Haiti, what went down in 2021, and all that stuff. But, most of the current situation I only know from the U.N. reports and media reports - which are helpful, but all very "big picture" stuff that doesn't really give a feel for how individual people are dealing with it. So, I think your post was a nice window into some Haitian perspective that you don't see often in the media, let alone these forums.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:32
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I'm not sure "people have been suffering for a long time, this is the natural order" is the slam dunk argument you think it is. Like yeah the US is pretty evil and imperialist. The problem is not the concept of intervention, the problem are the international and capitalist interests that follow from intervention. Just as you can posit that the consequences of inaction are better than the consequences of action, the situation can theoretically deteriorate to a point where the opposite is true. Yes, many an imperialist has lied and used this kind of thing as an excuse to exploit the local population. If you ask the average person whether they want to risk cholera to maintain the intellectual purity of this thread I think you'd know the answer. The problem is not that intervention is bad. It's that intervention by traditional imperial powers is bad. The fact that we need a better way than we've used isn't an excuse to do nothing, it's a reason to do something different.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:33
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Just for a good primer on the background, here is a CNN article describing the U.N. report on the situation in Haiti that was released a few days ago: Edit: Spoilered for descriptions of rape by request. quote:‘Rape has become a weapon’ for Haiti gangs, says UN https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/14/americas/haiti-gangs-sexual-violence-intl-latam Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 00:37
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cat botherer posted:It's been post-apocalyptic for a couple centuries now. Can you explain this a little further? It's kind of a bizarre thing to just throw out there with no further elaboration.
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Oct 18, 2022 00:41
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hey Leon, mind spoilering that megaquote? I feel it's a bit too upsetting at points to leave unspoilered
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Oct 18, 2022 00:41
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Main Paineframe posted:Can you explain this a little further? It's kind of a bizarre thing to just throw out there with no further elaboration. 1. A Haitian leader is going against US/French interests. 2. US/French sponsors a coup. 3. The coup succeeds, with the cost of the coup tacked on to Haiti's foreign debt (oppression ain't free) 4. At some point, another leader does something coup-worthy, we rinse-repeat, with the new coup-debt tacked on. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 18, 2022 01:10
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selec posted:So are we gonna invade Haiti? Seems kinda likely. Why would you care about the United States' policies or opinions when forming an opinion on Ukrainian sovereignty, if I may ask? Do you form all of your opinions on opposite day logic or something? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 02:45
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I said it before, if it is that important to intervene, let Cuba run it. If the US really cares about the welfare of Haitians, letting Cuba run an intervention wouldn’t be an issue. They have tons of experience delivering genuine humanitarian aid without the weight of the hegemon behind them, they don’t give a poo poo which international NGOs are demanding bribes or gatekeeping, and it would do a poo poo-ton to improve relationships between the US, Cuba and Haiti. I’d say the US government opposing this reflexively, as a poster suggested they would, is a strong indicator that they didn’t have the best intentions for Haiti at the center of their planning. I think the US has a ton of money and very little to no skill or success at adequate humanitarian interventions that aren’t also doing double-duty as hegemonic discipline, and so to break this track record of bad results and bad intentions, we should fund an intervention run by a people famous in the region for doing it right: selflessly. The fact that this reads as a joke to many folks is just an example of how well propaganda works, IMO.
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Oct 18, 2022 18:49
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selec posted:They have tons of experience delivering genuine humanitarian aid without the weight of the hegemon behind them, they don’t give a poo poo which international NGOs are demanding bribes or gatekeeping, and it would do a poo poo-ton to improve relationships between the US, Cuba and Haiti. I'm open to the idea, but not familiar with Cuba's experience delivering humanitarian aid. I did a quick search and all I was seeing was hits about aid to Cuba. Where should I look?
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Oct 18, 2022 18:53
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France and US and any international org that took payment pay it into a fund, to be split evenly between all living Hatian individuals (maybe even for a yet-to-be born new generarion) in US dollars or currency preference in any bank the individual wants with a card+ID attached to that account. Show up, give your preferred name (no records necessary), get your picture taken for an ID and you get your bank info, a share, an ID and a card. Can also choose payments or a lump sum or get it in cash. Logistically finicky but worth it.
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Oct 18, 2022 19:00
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Cranappleberry posted:France and US and any international org that took payment pay it into a fund, to be split evenly between all living Hatian individuals (maybe even for a yet-to-be born new generarion) in US dollars or currency preference in any bank the individual wants with a card+ID attached to that account. you don't, uh, see a large variety of incredibly obvious flaws in this proposal to deal with a country that currently does not have a functioning government and needs humanitarian aid among the most obvious: you can't eat money, especially electronic money
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Oct 18, 2022 19:10
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Also you may be raped to death during your trip to the distribution point and back
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Oct 18, 2022 19:17
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evilweasel posted:you don't, uh, see a large variety of incredibly obvious flaws in this proposal to deal with a country that currently does not have a functioning government and needs humanitarian aid If the government isn’t functioning why do we think it’s qualified to represent a nation well enough to request aid? Unless you’ve got a better plan for instilling trust and running a humanitarian operation that isn’t also an IMF stand over job, please share. Because the US running it is a nonstarter for anyone with passing knowledge of the previous history and a sober, reasonable cynicism about the US’ intentions, and actual concern for the longterm health of the people of Haiti. I don’t trust anyone who didn’t publicly speak up about Obama telling them they didn’t deserve .61/hour more than you deserved cheap tighty whities.
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Oct 18, 2022 19:21
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selec posted:I said it before, if it is that important to intervene, let Cuba run it. Do you have any suggestions that a have a snowballs chance in hell of happening or are we just having a fun theorycrafting time? I agree that this would be a good idea but also it's definitely not going to happen.
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Oct 18, 2022 19:22
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Jaxyon posted:Do you have any suggestions that a have a snowballs chance in hell of happening or are we just having a fun theorycrafting time? I agree it’s not going to happen, I just want to see people accept why it’s not going to happen as a way of having a better conversation about what actually will happen, and how this is an identical cycle to what’s played out in the past. It should happen, it’s a much better plan than anything the “Haitians make too much money” wing of the party can come up with.
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Oct 18, 2022 19:24
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selec posted:I agree it’s not going to happen, I just want to see people accept why it’s not going to happen as a way of having a better conversation about what actually will happen, and how this is an identical cycle to what’s played out in the past. Has Cuba even offered aid? The last I heard, Cuba themselves are currently requesting aid from the US. https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cuba-requests-us-aid-after-hurricane-ian-knocks-out-power-wsj-2022-09-30/
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Oct 18, 2022 19:25
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Papercut posted:Has Cuba even offered aid? The last I heard, Cuba themselves are currently requesting aid from the US. They wouldn’t, in this awesome plan, have to offer up anything but guidance and staff the leadership. I would love if the US started paying Cuba back the billions in reparations we owe. Edit: To the goon wondering about Cuba’s history of foreign aid, they frequently send out their (world class) doctors to disaster struck regions to give medical help. Also if you were a CIA officer working to protect and empower the South African apartheid regime in the 70s anywhere in Africa, and died to enemy action, there was a significant chance that this improvement to the state of the world was brought to us by a Cuban soldier or intelligence agent. selec fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Oct 18, 2022 |
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Oct 18, 2022 19:27
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