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slurm posted:All of the weird theorycrafting and basically baseless calculations around sexual violence of all things is incredibly creepy. It is very useful when it comes to justifying another western “intervention” in Haiti, a country that has never once been helped ever by any foreign nation “intervening” in it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2022 15:42
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Nucleic Acids posted:It is very useful when it comes to justifying another western “intervention” in Haiti, a country that has never once been helped ever by any foreign nation “intervening” in it. Why are you scare quoting intervention when the Haitian government is literally requesting intervention? I get there's a big history of military adventurism with the US and a lack of trust in the institutions of power on behalf of a lot of posters (myself included) - but can we maybe trust when a government with a lived experience of dealing with us is aware of that history and is requesting help regardless, that maybe thing are just that bad and that doing nothing is in fact probably the greater evil, not the lesser?
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Oct 19, 2022 16:10
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DeathSandwich posted:Why are you scare quoting intervention when the Haitian government is literally requesting intervention? Because the Haitian government is a American puppet state and there is no possible way this will result in anything good for the Haitian people, who have the actual “lived experience” of dealing with the United States.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:16
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Maybe because it's not certain the Haitian government is acting in the best interests of it's people? E: beaten by seconds
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Oct 19, 2022 16:18
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Nucleic Acids posted:Because the Haitian government is a American puppet state and there is no possible way this will result in anything good for the Haitian people, who have the actual “lived experience” of dealing with the United States. The current Haitian government is the one led by the person assumed to have been behind the assassination of the previous President, who was considered a U.S.-friendly leader. He got his start in politics in the Haitian Socialist party.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The current Haitian government is the one led by the person assumed to have been behind the assassination of the previous President, who was considered a U.S.-friendly leader. I’m sure United States has nothing to do with a former socialist getting into office to replace their old strongman.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:35
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Nucleic Acids posted:I’m sure United States has nothing to do with a former socialist getting into office to replace their old strongman. I'm confused. You said the Haitian government is a U.S. puppet state. But, it became a U.S. puppet state because the U.S. secretly had its puppet assassinated so a socialist politician could take over to become the new puppet? And the primary impact on the U.S. of this was that U.S. oil and textile companies haven't been able to move product from there for almost two years and there has been a huge influx of Haitian illegal immigration. Why would they do all of that? It all seems bad for them and doesn't really make sense to assassinate their own "puppet governor" to install a "socialist puppet government."
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Oct 19, 2022 16:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I'm confused. You said the Haitian government is a U.S. puppet state. I’m saying I doubt he’s a socialist in any actual sense or else the US never would have allowed him into office last actually leader who could claim a Democratic mandate without US backing was Aristide and the US coupled him for it. And the US has treated Haiti like a colony since it’s inception because we couldn’t stomach the thought of a black nation that freed itself from slavery.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:44
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Nucleic Acids posted:I’m saying I doubt he’s a socialist in any actual sense or else the US never would have allowed him into office last actually leader who could claim a Democratic mandate without US backing was Aristide and the US coupled him for it. And the US has treated Haiti like a colony since it’s inception because we couldn’t stomach the thought of a black nation that freed itself from slavery. out of curiosity do you have anything that backs this claim that this guy is a US puppet?
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Oct 19, 2022 16:46
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Mooseontheloose posted:out of curiosity do you have anything that backs this claim that this guy is a US puppet? That the US couped Aristide and that our deep racism has always underlined our every interaction with Haiti?
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Oct 19, 2022 16:48
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Nucleic Acids posted:That the US couped Aristide and that our deep racism has always underlined our every interaction with Haiti? So nothing. edit: like I get it, be skeptical fine. Why go through the UN? Why specifically wait for that? Also, why assassinate the last guy who was friendly to the US government?
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Oct 19, 2022 16:51
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Nucleic Acids posted:I’m saying I doubt he’s a socialist in any actual sense or else the US never would have allowed him into office last actually leader who could claim a Democratic mandate without US backing was Aristide and the US coupled him for it. And the US has treated Haiti like a colony since it’s inception because we couldn’t stomach the thought of a black nation that freed itself from slavery. But, why did they secretly assassinate their actual puppet who had control over 100% of the country to install a socialist puppet who only has control over 25% of the country while gangs control the other 75%? I'm just confused about the motive behind someone secretly assassinating their own puppet to install a socialist puppet who has even less control over the country he is puppeteering. The assassination was a disaster for the U.S. textile and oil industries and caused a lot of problems in the U.S. with migrants.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:54
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Mooseontheloose posted:So nothing. The UN has a pretty dogshit records in Haiti, so them giving a fig leaf cover to this isn't shocking. And you'd have to ask the men with ties to US law enforcement who were involved in the assisination about that.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:54
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Maybe because it's not certain the Haitian government is acting in the best interests of it's people? What is the best interest of the people, in this case? I'm not meaning to be pedantic, but there are a whole bunch of conclusions you could be leading to and I don't want to strawman you.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:54
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:But, why did they secretly assassinate their actual puppet who had control over 100% of the country to install a socialist puppet who only has control over 25% of the country while gangs control the other 75%? I don't believe he's actually a socialist in any sense and there's an absolute history of the US bumping off someone they found inconvenient and replacing them with someone even worse/more incompetent.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:55
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In what sense was the old guy inconvenient?
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Oct 19, 2022 16:58
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Nucleic Acids posted:The UN has a pretty dogshit records in Haiti, so them giving a fig leaf cover to this isn't shocking. And you'd have to ask the men with ties to US law enforcement who were involved in the assisination about that. One guy snitched to the DEA in 2011. I guess that is technically a "tie to U.S. law enforcement," but seems like a pretty loose definition. Almost everyone else behind the assassination were Colombian and Haitian. I'm not even arguing about whether a U.N. intervention would be good or not, but I am just confused about the logic of the U.S. assassinating their puppet to install... a different and less ideologically friendly puppet (?) and shut down the U.S. textile and oil industries there for two years during a time of soaring oil costs and inflation. Or why the United Nations seems to be involved in helping the U.S. do this.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:One guy snitched to the DEA in 2011. I guess that is technically a "tie to U.S. law enforcement," but seems like a pretty loose definition. Almost everyone else behind the assassination were Colombian and Haitian. The United Nations has frequently been used by the United States to give a cover of justification for it's foreign interventions, Iraq not withstanding. I've seen nothing to actually suggest that this example of liberal interventionism will be different than before.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:03
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are operating with literally zero facts and only on ideological grounds, correct? As in, everything the US does is bad so therefore you are working backwards to determine how this particular action is bad, after starting from that premise?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:09
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Clarste posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are operating with literally zero facts and only on ideological grounds, correct? As in, everything the US does is bad so therefore you are working backwards to determine how this particular action is bad, after starting from that premise? I'm looking at the 220 year plus history of Haiti and how it has been treated as a colony by every foreign power that had an 'interest' in it, the United States especially. There has never been one example of a foreign power sending in the kind of help Biden is proposing and it actually leading to positive outcomes for the people of Haiti, with, again, the United States having an especially bad track record.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:12
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Nucleic Acids posted:Because the Haitian government is a American puppet state and there is no possible way this will result in anything good for the Haitian people, who have the actual “lived experience” of dealing with the United States. Oh cool I'm assuming from your posting like this you have deep roots in Haiti and are comfortable speaking for the average Haitian. How's it going down there and what's the sentiment among your friends and family?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:14
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Nucleic Acids posted:I'm looking at the 220 year plus history of Haiti and how it has been treated as a colony by every foreign power that had an 'interest' in it, the United States especially. There has never been one example of a foreign power sending in the kind of help Biden is proposing and it actually leading to positive outcomes for the people of Haiti, with, again, the United States having an especially bad track record. I don't trust US intervention either, but you sound like an absolute idiot, sorry.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:17
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Nucleic Acids posted:I don't believe he's actually a socialist in any sense and there's an absolute history of the US bumping off someone they found inconvenient and replacing them with someone even worse/more incompetent. I hate to say it, but this is looking a lot like conspiracy theory reasoning. You don't have any actual evidence, and you're arguing that any facts that don't fit your preconceived notions were faked by the conspiracy to cover up their true involvement. If you were pointing to something in his personal history or what his political record, that'd be one thing. But you haven't shown any indication that you even know who the current leader of Haiti is. You're claiming that he's a fake socialist solely because you believe the conspiracy would never allow a true socialist to come to power and survive. It's fine to use history and ideological beliefs to inform your interpretation of current events, but when you don't even need to hear about current events to proclaim your verdict, that's just dogma.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:19
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Jaxyon posted:Oh cool I'm assuming from your posting like this you have deep roots in Haiti and are comfortable speaking for the average Haitian. Seems like a lot of Haitians really don't like their government right now.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:19
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Clarste posted:I don't trust US intervention either, but you sound like an absolute idiot, sorry. No, it's just looking at the actual history of the United States treating the Caribbean like as it's playground.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:20
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Nucleic Acids posted:Seems like a lot of Haitians really don't like their government right now. Oh that must suck. Can you go into more detail? Are you living there right now? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2022 17:21
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Still curious who has the right to speak for Haiti on the international stage if the current government lacks credibility due to the history of outside interference (let's, for the sake of argument, ignore that the current government is recognized by the UN) If you don't think there is any such entity right now, does that mean it is not possible for a request for intervention in Haiti to be made? And it is the obligation of the rest of the world to respect this, no matter what atrocities are committed upon the actual living people there?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:21
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Jaxyon posted:Oh cool I'm assuming from your posting like this you have deep roots in Haiti and are comfortable speaking for the average Haitian. It’s perfectly valid to speak like this as an American who owns part of the responsibility of the hegemon we run. Power flows from us, and is wielded against the powerless. Thus we have a moral duty to speak on it, unless you’ve got a different conception of our responsibilities to a nation we stole their entire treasury from and never returned. We could just start by paying the $65,750,628.92 we owe them. We stole 500k from them in 1914, and never paid it back. You should look at the circumstances we took it under, it’s pretty enlightening. Saying we have to have deep roots in Haiti to speak on this while ignoring our role in the subjugation of those people is what people talk about when they talk about the cynical weaponization of identity politics, as though I have nothing to contribute by being part of the oppressor nation to the discussion.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:22
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Nucleic Acids posted:I'm looking at the 220 year plus history of Haiti and how it has been treated as a colony by every foreign power that had an 'interest' in it, the United States especially. There has never been one example of a foreign power sending in the kind of help Biden is proposing and it actually leading to positive outcomes for the people of Haiti, with, again, the United States having an especially bad track record. Yeah it really sounds like you started from 'US bad' and then worked backwards from that whole making claims that the current guy is a US puppet despite 0 evidence and it not making much sense I have a friend from Haiti and her family is still there and it sounds absolutely awful there right now I dunno what the solution is but it's loving dreadful
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Oct 19, 2022 17:23
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Jaxyon posted:Oh that must suck. Can you go into more detail? Are you living there right now? It turns out Americans actually should recognize their nation's racist history of foreign interventions and exploitation of Latin American and Caribbean nations.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:24
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selec posted:It’s perfectly valid to speak like this as an American who owns part of the responsibility of the hegemon we run. Power flows from us, and is wielded against the powerless. Thus we have a moral duty to speak on it, unless you’ve got a different conception of our responsibilities to a nation we stole their entire treasury from and never returned. Honest question, in circumstances like this where the government has basically lost control of the country, who exactly do you give the money to? Nucleic Acids posted:It turns out Americans actually should recognize their nation's racist history of foreign interventions and exploitation of Latin American and Caribbean nations. Literally noone in this thread is denying any of this so I don't know who you are talking about
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Oct 19, 2022 17:25
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Alctel posted:Yeah it really sounds like you started from 'US bad' and then worked backwards from that whole making claims that the current guy is a US puppet despite 0 evidence and it not making much sense We could get real orthagonal and just ask everyday Iraqi and Afghan citizens what they think we should do in Haiti. That would produce a lot of new, extremely well-informed opinions about what the US is good at, probably smarter than anyone in this thread can come up with. Think of it like a recent customer survey! Edit: Alcatel, read back a few pages, I had some ideas for leveraging nations with skill sets and without the centuries of colonist baggage who could help out. selec fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 17:25
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Alctel posted:Yeah it really sounds like you started from 'US bad' and then worked backwards from that whole making claims that the current guy is a US puppet despite 0 evidence and it not making much sense The solution is for the United States to not send troops in to establis it's preferred vision of order.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:26
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selec posted:It’s perfectly valid to speak like this as an American who owns part of the responsibility of the hegemon we run. Power flows from us, and is wielded against the powerless. Thus we have a moral duty to speak on it, unless you’ve got a different conception of our responsibilities to a nation we stole their entire treasury from and never returned. Oh sorry you must be confused. America Bad. We both agree on that. Feel free to continue talking on behalf of America and how bad it is, as an American. Are you speaking for the Haitian people as well? If so, I'm happy to hear about your personal connection to Haiti that allows you to do that. Also you're not the poster I was replying to. Nucleic Acids posted:It turns out Americans actually should recognize their nation's racist history of foreign interventions and exploitation of Latin American and Caribbean nations. Yeah for sure, American is real bad. What does that have to do with what I typed?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:28
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Jaxyon posted:Oh sorry you must be confused. America Bad. We both agree on that. Feel free to continue talking on behalf of America and how bad it is, as an American. Why do you think that American and Canadian soldiers on the ground is something that the actual people of Haiti might want?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:30
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Nucleic Acids, please provide some kind of evidence that the U.S. assassinated the previous President or anything supporting your other theories or just stop going on about it. Otherwise, it's just going to be 20 people responding to you saying that it makes no sense and you replying "it feels right" and "check your history" for the next 10 pages. You can make arguments about whether the U.N. would be a good idea or anything else, but there's no point in the back forth of the logic of that specific theory.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:30
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The assassination was a disaster for the U.S. textile and oil industries It doesn't extract or refine oil, and is too small and too poor to be a significant export market. There's a bunch of unproven geological evidence of maybe-large reserves, but nobody's ever extracted or done exploration. Knit textiles are the majority of Haiti's exports, mostly t-shirts and mostly to the US. But it's not very much from the US's perspective, it's about 1% of the US imports in that tariff category. It matters to the specific companies with factories there, but not to the industry as a whole
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Oct 19, 2022 17:31
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Jaxyon posted:Oh sorry you must be confused. America Bad. We both agree on that. Feel free to continue talking on behalf of America and how bad it is, as an American. Are the thread rules now that people can’t respond to other people’s responses? Can I get a Mod to weigh in here? That’s not a rule I am familiar with and things are extremely tetchy with the reporting in here. I of course would never presume to speak for the Haitian people. Think of me more like a guy working on a truck assembly line who’s been ordered to start building them wrong again and wondering what the gently caress management is doing.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:31
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Foxfire_ posted:Not really. Haiti isn't economically important to the US. The assassination was a disaster for the U.S. textile and oil industries [in Haiti].
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Oct 19, 2022 17:32
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Nucleic Acids posted:Why do you think that American and Canadian soldiers on the ground is something that the actual people of Haiti might want? Where did I say I think that? Was it in your head?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:32
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