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OwlFancier posted:I just really struggle to see why this is somehow not what people voted for, they voted to put the tories in power, at the time they did that it was loving johnson in charge running on the platform of hard brexit who cares, if people vote for that I don't think they then get to turn around and go "how could I possibly have known what that would lead to" as if this end state has not been visible from loving space. I get your point but I think you're overvaluing the amount of thought that goes into most Tory voters decision making. They think the Tories are going to make them more materially wealthy because that is their entire brand, but now the brand has been smeared by some reality because Liz Truss tried to go full mask off tory at a moment when the lie that they have any moral qualms about anything is more necessary than usual. So people who also have none are now realising that they have been exposed and are feeling under threat. Their mandate was to continue the lie that capitalism is going to make us all healthier and happier and they've failed to do that. roomtone fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 14:33
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Lmao of *course* Braverman and Bad Enoch are running. I don't *think* there are enough truly deranged MPs to let either through to the members, but there might be. In which case lol and lmao forever
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Oct 20, 2022 14:34
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roomtone posted:there's got to be a GE asap. the facade that we live in a democracy is completely gone otherwise, and i don't think we're quite that far in the toilet. Hey if the cons over there are anything like they are over here, they do not give one solitary flying gently caress about democracy 
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Oct 20, 2022 14:34
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JordanKai posted:I see what you're saying, but I don't agree 100%. People vote for their representative, yes, but they vote for a representative knowing who the Prime Minister will be if their representative's party wins. This knowledge has a non-zero effect on voting behaviour surely, and because of that I wouldn't say that a GE mandate carries over after a leadership election, at least not in full. We don't have one of those though lol. Still the pantomime internal procedures of the conservative party shredding the kayfabe that manifesto pledges matter at all is part of why Liz was so hugely unpopular. This would have been easier to get way with if the party hadn't been crowing about their majority and mandate since 2019.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:35
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Skull Servant posted:She's elected to represent a constituency, then elected by her peers in the lower house to be the figurehead for the house. Resignation of the latter role does not impact her election by the former. Israel and Ireland had those rotating PMs agreed in advance during coalition negotiations (I think), it's not the same thing and comparing 2-party systems to multi-party systems is also not accurate. I agree with other posters that the UK PM is hugely influential in shaping policy as well as literally appointing the whole cabinet, so pretending like they're just some nobody acting as a mouthpiece for the House of Commons is a really dishonest way of presenting things.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:35
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Red Bones posted:1922 Committee has said they want to conclude a leadership election by the 28th and have a new leader in before the 31st October. So if they want the party members to have a vote on it, they're going to have to be pretty quick about it. Be interesting to know wither they just want it quick because they've already had so much turmoil this year, and just want things settled, or if the committee have an idea of who they want in and think if the leadership election is done fast enough they think their preferred candidate has a far better chance.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:35
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lmao at the Sky News analyst who used the term "she produced a budget that spontaneously combusted the moment it hit reality" I'm going to be using that from now on for projects that are dead on arrival
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Oct 20, 2022 14:35
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If you think that a PM that won a general election in 2019 on a manifesto being replaced by a PM voted in by a small membership in order to basically act counter to that whole manifesto is conceptually fine then maybe stop pretending democracy is an important part of the system. I mean this separate from the practical incentives in the system - yes, it is obvious why the Tories wouldn't want to have a general election now, but let's not pretend that's because of some consistent democratic belief rather than entirely out of self-preservation.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:35
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William Bear posted:Is it correct to say that the problem is that the people of the UK voted for Brexit in 2016? Their elected representatives then had a popular mandate to make the country poorer, which left them unable to govern effectively. I mean they also voted for the tories in 2015, and tory/lib dem in 2010, and frankly however far back you want to go. They aren't "unable to govern effectively" they're governing in a way that has been done across the globe, cutting public services, privatizing things, funnelling money to the rich from the public purse and directly out of people's bank accounts by forcing them to pay for private provision of basic services which they can't do without such as housing and food and energy, and now healthcare. It is not ineffective governance it is deliberate governance for the rich and for the owning classes. Brexit is I suppose the first time it got "out of hand" in that it wasn't what cameron wanted, he called the referendum so he could win it and then he lost it, but that, arguably, is because his and previous governments had traded on the support of the right wing press and those governments and that press, had spent decades previously using the EU as a scapegoat for the malevolence of those governments. That is an example of the deliberate government erosion of the public institutions coming back to bite them.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:35
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OwlFancier posted:I just really struggle to see why this is somehow not what people voted for, they voted to put the tories in power, at the time they did that it was loving johnson in charge running on the platform of hard brexit who cares, if people vote for that I don't think they then get to turn around and go "how could I possibly have known what that would lead to" as if this end state has not been visible from loving space. .... and if UK media is anything like it is in the states, people were told that the alternative to the conservatives was death and anarchy I'm assuming the public was told in all caps "YOUR ONLY MODERATE CHOICE IS THE CONS" ?
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Oct 20, 2022 14:36
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keep punching joe posted:The UK PM is for all intents and purposes the head of state (yes its officially the king but all political power is enacted through Parliament led by the PM). In no way are they equivalent to whatever the US Speaker does. This is a stupid derail but it is absolutely the closest America has to it and I'm really surprised people are making it more difficult than it actually is. Resignation of the President does not result in an election, but there is a formal line of succession which does not apply to PM. Chief of Staff also does not apply because it is not an elected position, along with all of the President's Cabinet. Yes, Westminster systems have literal Speakers of the House but, in function, it works differently to the USA. Speakers in Westminster systems are typically "unelected" in their constituencies by convention, unlike in the USA. It is absolutely the closest possible comparison.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:37
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Tories are having a normal one, eh?
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Oct 20, 2022 14:38
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The Lord of Hats posted:Wow, Liz absolutely smashed the UK Prime Minister speedrun record, previously set in 1827. Just about the only way she could've done better is using a knife instead of a sneeze to murder the Queen. 44 days /played any%. This one will last.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:40
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Chinese Gordon posted:Lmao of *course* Braverman and [b]Bad Enochp/b] are running. I don't *think* there are enough truly deranged MPs to let either through to the members, but there might be. In which case lol and lmao forever That's not a surprise she seemed quite popular with tory voters due to her whole anti-woke bollocks.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:40
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Seth Pecksniff posted:lmao at the Sky News analyst who used the term "she produced a budget that spontaneously combusted the moment it hit reality" "Reports are saying that the budget was 'compromised to a permanent end'" Also: https://twitter.com/tristandross/status/1583085063121809410
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Oct 20, 2022 14:41
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SixFigureSandwich posted:I agree with other posters that the UK PM is hugely influential in shaping policy as well as literally appointing the whole cabinet, so pretending like they're just some nobody acting as a mouthpiece for the House of Commons is a really dishonest way of presenting things. Actually it was just a coincidence that everyone attacked Corbyn for several years when there was a possibility he would become PM, rather than just the MP for Islington North.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:42
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Potato Salad posted:.... and if UK media is anything like it is in the states, people were told that the alternative to the conservatives was death and anarchy Sure, in the face of the last, at the time, almost ten years of reality. Which is why the british public are unspeakable loving morons who aren't capable of making decisions about anything, and why I find their current buyer's remorse nothing but contemptible.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:43
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bessantj posted:That's not a surprise she seemed quite popular with tory voters due to her whole anti-woke bollocks. I know. I'd be more surprised if she *didn't* run. There will be a candidate for the lunatic wing to coalesce around (again) and if that candidate is allowed through to the completely unhinged membership (again) then we are truly in Cool Zone territory(again?).
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Oct 20, 2022 14:45
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William Bear posted:Is it correct to say that the problem is that the people of the UK voted for Brexit in 2016? Their elected representatives then had a popular mandate to make the country poorer, which left them unable to govern effectively. No, the problem is we didn't elect Jeremy Corbyn when we had the chance, & he didn't install government by workers councils instead of a bourgeoise parliament.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:46
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According to law, the lettuce is now the PM and all lettucelative power is transferred to the Tofu party.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:46
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The way I see it, what you actually vote on is 'This person is the one I choose to represent my interests in Parliament' And part of the power that MP is entrusted with is picking who gets to be the Prime Minister. So doesn't matter how many prime ministers resign, as long as the person you have voted for, your MP is still sitting there, your vote is still being honoured. Heck, this goes far beyond 'Well, shouldn't there be a re election because they switched some plans' As I understand it, a MP can outright switch parties and maintain his seat, because they are still the person everyone voted for. And that's even so in the US. Perhaps best understood as 'If the President was elected by a vote of congress, rather than popular vote' then it doesn't matter how many presidents resigned, your vote was for seating that congressperson, and as long as his term runs, they get to vote for as many presidents as the situation calls for.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:46
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[reading comprehension]
Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 14:46
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Lol Boris is running
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Oct 20, 2022 14:47
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Skull Servant posted:This is a stupid derail but it is absolutely the closest America has to it and I'm really surprised people are making it more difficult than it actually is. Resignation of the President does not result in an election, but there is a formal line of succession which does not apply to PM. Chief of Staff also does not apply because it is not an elected position, along with all of the President's Cabinet. It really isn't. The Speaker of the House in the US is effectively the Leader of the House of Commons in the UK as far as their actual role goes, in terms of setting the legislative agenda and the making sure the government is making use of the structural advantages it has when it comes to the legislative function of government. The US also having a VP is useful since they are elected on the same ticket as the President, so they already have that democratic mandate. This is also ignoring the fact that the President doesn't choose when the elections are run (nor does the Speaker), so they at least have a conceptual out by pointing at the normal functioning of the system. The UK PM does not - they can call an election at any time, so a new PM coming in is making an active decision to not call an election. Honestly the only way your comparison would make sense is if you didn't consider the executive function to be the head of government, and that head to instead be the head of the legislature, which is a baffling position.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:47
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sinky posted:Actually it was just a coincidence that everyone attacked Corbyn for several years when there was a possibility he would become PM, rather than just the MP for Islington North. That reminds me does anyone know how Labour is getting on in selecting candidates for his constituency? And, as a Labour party member, does Corbyn get a vote in selecting that person because lmao
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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a pipe smoking dog posted:Lol Boris is running Wait really?
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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a pipe smoking dog posted:Lol Boris is running As expected, who else were the ERG going to pick. They have run out of their presentable picks.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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Failed Imagineer posted:Potential forums namechange to Cheap Reformed Meat Hunk 
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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massive spider posted:Thread is moving fast but I'm going to try and paraphrase it partly as practice to explain it to a Canadian friend. Thanks for that writeup. Sounds like a real shitshow, sorry you guys are going through it. On the fracking issue, does that mean fracking is now unbanned?
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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a pipe smoking dog posted:I'm kind of thinking of putting a bet down on Boris being PM again by Christmas. Wish I'd actually done this
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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keep punching joe posted:Mordaunt will be PM, and win the votes of all the horniest centrist dad's. Keith will be left in the dust. Conservative Party Political Broadcasts will be like those M&S Food adverts with steamy saxophone music
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Oct 20, 2022 14:48
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Seth Pecksniff posted:Wait really? https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1583091554574831617?t=UomCmDfGY44-CXmmXyj2MQ&s=19
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Oct 20, 2022 14:49
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It's a bit weird that Americans have trouble understanding this when their system works the same? When Nixon resigned, Gerald Ford became president. But Ford was an appointee after the elected VP Spiro Agnew resigned. So no one had voted for the president. They had an election two-and-a-bit years later, as previously scheduled.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:49
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a pipe smoking dog posted:Lol Boris is running Sickos.png
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Oct 20, 2022 14:50
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a pipe smoking dog posted:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1583091554574831617?t=UomCmDfGY44-CXmmXyj2MQ&s=19 lmao
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Oct 20, 2022 14:50
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The power of the executive is with parliament, via the magic mace or whatever, but the point is they just pick someone to push the actual buttons, the UK political system has not considered it very important to restrict the executive power to a specific person via elections, and it's weird to me that we now suddenly do need to do that just because people watch too much american TV and think that's how it works. I'm not really convinced that the american approach produces better results.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:50
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From whence did this gangtag originate? Because it's surely relevant again.
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Oct 20, 2022 14:51
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a pipe smoking dog posted:https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1583091554574831617?t=UomCmDfGY44-CXmmXyj2MQ&s=19  I love this timeline! He's absolutely going to be PM ahahahaha
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Oct 20, 2022 14:51
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Guavanaut posted:New PM and LOTO:
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Oct 20, 2022 14:51
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Shogeton posted:The way I see it, what you actually vote on is 'This person is the one I choose to represent my interests in Parliament' And part of the power that MP is entrusted with is picking who gets to be the Prime Minister. So doesn't matter how many prime ministers resign, as long as the person you have voted for, your MP is still sitting there, your vote is still being honoured How many voters do you think knew who their MP was (or their preferred party's candidate) in the 2019 election, rather than Johnson and Corbyn?
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Oct 20, 2022 14:51
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