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Just chiming in to say genocide denialism and other explicitly fascist posting should be punished harshly. I don't want to share space with fascists, as do many other posters.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:06
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Ok great, thank you. So this is actually A Problem. It's pretty clear to me the problem is one of SA's never ending issue: Negligence. Now, that's not to say the folks who run the forums, moderators, and so on don't do a good job. They do a good job. Policing this place is hard, thankless work. And the folks keeping the lanes running generally do a great job of that. The negligence is what's beyond that. About fostering a community and keeping it healthy. Yes. I try not to get too caught up in the drama between the threads but this really is the crux of the issue as perceived by, well, "normies." Athanatos, it may come as a surprise to the admin staff but there's a number of people who feel that genocide and the indiscriminate and deliberate targeting of civilians as a strategy of military terror is at least as bad as many other matters that might warrant a permaban on this forum. Shockingly, this includes such incontrovertible issues such as sexual abuse. I would not consider, say, permabanned poater seraph64 to be more reprehensible than someone who excuses or even cheers for the deaths of Ukrainian civilians and children. He might even be less irritating depending on the poster on question, especially if they're "only doing it ironically." And he absolutely deserves to remain permabanned because he's a disgusting idiot who makes every thread he touches worse. When someone can't contain themselves from making jokes about how much they lust for the deaths of Ukrainian civilians in completely unrelated threads, they're at least guilty of the same. Runa fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 27, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 21:07
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KitConstantine posted:Beyond that any rule changes will be announced once the admin team (mods and admins, for reference) have time to discuss it. So are we actually gonna get something tangible that we can read and make decisions based on? If it just gets swept under the rug "died in committee" style then this whole face-to-face thing was less than useless and is in fact actively offensive.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:08
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fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/KATURATION/status/1585543576947249152?t=OthU_YaQom1VkkUCyElnig&s=19 Rusich has deleted the post from their Telegram, but archive.ph still has it https://archive.ph/z3kqK
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Oct 27, 2022 21:09
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Mans post is a fantastic example of deflection and whataboutism that you experience when you call out genocide denialism and such. It's a real shame. But moving on. But I want to add an addendum. I don't have a problem with CSPAM posters. My nazi bar point isn't meant to imply they're fascists or nazis. They have a human face to me. I don't have Posting Enemies or care about forums drama for the most part. That being said what bothers me, what frustrates me is to see genocide denialism and really intense anger by some posters, which is then seemingly protected and carried water by mods or even admins. And no doubt covering for these posters will bring in more like them. That's wrong. Explicit genocide denialism should be explicitly no bueno. Especially when the leader of the country committing the crimes is literally going out on TV and saying "The state (we are genociding) doesn't have a right to exist." His words, not mine. So that's why I ask, can the administration team explicitly say they OK with posts explicitly or tacitly supporting russian war crimes that isn't explicit satire or not? Because there is so much deflection, obfuscation, "Both sides..." and so on. I would appreciate a loud and clear answer. I said explicitly a lot. It's a fun word.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:10
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NecroBob posted:So are we actually gonna get something tangible that we can read and make decisions based on? I think any mod or admin that has had to read my bullshit in the mod forum over the last few months would be happy to tell you I won't be letting this poo poo go
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Oct 27, 2022 21:11
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Woolie Wool posted:One big problem is the whole edgy humor style that SA was built on is...really bad, actually, and the whole "woke" controversy on social media is exactly the turn against such behavior on the wider internet and "IRL" society, and other people wanting the 2000s standards back. It's way bigger than tankies vs liberals on two dead gay subforums and it might tear this place apart for good despite all efforts. There’s a lot of really hosed up poo poo on this site that we take with a laugh (  ) but this site was basically founded on a slur. Y0u=f-slur got run into the ground so loving hard that IIRC it was the first bannable catchphrase. Back when it was only Gibbis, it was a matter of course that threads got derailed with rotten.com’s or stileprojects latest & greatest. Nonsequitur vile shitposting eventually gave way to FYAD because it ruined everything. I very clearly remember posters in the 9/11 live thread CW rating the form on people jumping from the WTC  This site is a strange attractor for strange attractors, and quite frankly we’re a bit of a vicious lot -  check out the OSHA thread - and I think it’s important to recognize that. This site has a long history of finding things that make people RealMad and then hammering them into the ground. But also this site is loving stupidly self aware / self critical, and it’s grown a lot over time. IMO it’s the clear delineator between Reddit, 4chan, etc. if these were subreddits or whatever, they’d just ban the poo poo out of each other until users got bored and moved on. IMO there’s a huge difference between allowing fringe opinions and enforcing fringe opinions, and while some of these fringe opinions are both incredibly stupid and really loving vile, I kinda/sorta don’t want to be part of a site that mutes that opposition. I’m absolutely not advocating for Nazis (or dickheads playacting as Nazis to get a rise from internet strangers) but I’m also not into purity tests. Maybe I missed this because  and dumb IRL stuff, but whats stopping us from our own little NAFO c-spam invasion, as a treat?
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Oct 27, 2022 21:12
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In some ways I get the admin dilemma, in that they didn't necessarily sign up to moderate politics and in the case of Athanatos and Jeff, who both (IIRC) don't really know or care about the politics of Eastern Europe to any great degree, aren't really equipped to sort through the mountains of information on this without lengthy prep any more than average poster X is to sort through whatever other specialized topic and body of knowledge this forum can generate (servers, bicycles, snake ownership, cooking, guns, whatever). It can't be easy to have two threads with polar opposite opinions each saying that the other is the devil, and having to try and sort who is correct (or at least, more correct). A proper grounding takes work--a lot of work. At the same time, insofar as we have not one but two politics subforums here plus offshoot threads (the worst idea for a comedy website, but that cat is long out of the bag and had kittens besides), I can't help but think that if you're going to keep them, host them and moderate them, it's on the admin staff to make themselves informed about this sort of major stuff. The excuse of "I don't know, I don't care" is just that--an excuse. I don't expect that the admin staff be informed on every incident of invasion and ethnic cleansing on the planet and have the correct informed opinions on all of them, but something of this scale and that has drawn in a large portion of the userbase needs to be handled by something other than apathy. If you don't want the work that comes with running this kind of thing, shut it all down; don't just throw your hands up with a big "welp" and "a lot of good people on both sides / posting enemies are so silly" rhetoric. You can't have ownership and authority without responsibility.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:12
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Nelson Mandingo posted:So that's why I ask, can the administration team explicitly say they OK with posts explicitly or tacitly supporting russian war crimes that isn't explicit satire or not? Because there is so much deflection, obfuscation, "Both sides..." and so on. I would appreciate a loud and clear answer. without calling you out, do you have specific posts in mind when you talk about this? I tend to peruse the cspam and d&d threads for the most part, and "explicit support of russian war crimes" to me feels like a very uncommon sentiment in that thread. there's without a doubt a very gallows humor/macabre tone to quite a few posts, but majorian has been pretty diligent for probing people going "yay war crimes" even ironically.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:13
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gone
Set fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Oct 29, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 21:13
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KitConstantine posted:I think any mod or admin that has had to read my bullshit in the mod forum over the last few months would be happy to tell you I won't be letting this poo poo go Wait, hold on, is there actually a bandwagon narrative that you "lost control" of something?
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Oct 27, 2022 21:13
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I generally don't care what C-SPAM gets up to, but if some of them are harassing specific goons through PMs, that really shouldn't be tolerated for even a second. I forgot who it was that posted a screenshot about this earlier, but that sort of behavior just crosses a line.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:14
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Waffle House posted:Wait, hold on, is there actually a bandwagon narrative that you "lost control" of something? 'Lost control' is the charitable side of the CSPAM Thread narrative regarding what I'm doing in this thread from what I've seen KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Oct 27, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 21:14
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Set posted:It makes me sad that they gatekeep leftism behind a lot of truly anti-leftist beliefs, and immediately claim all other leftists to be liberals. It poisons the well for all leftists everywhere. It is a vicious attitude, that promotes ideological purity before all and turns everyone into tiny inquisitors looking for heretics. Counterpoint: you can blow up the gates and build new wells. Regardless, yes it’s loving annoying to contend with, but it comes with the territory. I’ve dealt with it IRL enough, online just makes it all the more…sadder? Not the right word
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Oct 27, 2022 21:16
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Vampire Panties posted:
It would be cringe beyond description.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:17
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teen witch posted:Counterpoint: you can blow up the gates and build new wells. Tiresome
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Oct 27, 2022 21:17
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Well it finally happened to me. I logged on thinking something major had happened as there were many posts, and instead, a slapfight. Anyway, my beef is with the mods and the posters on the other forum, and the whole rotten system that gets good posters like me probed constantly for nothing. Yuck!
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Oct 27, 2022 21:17
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any of the mods or admins gonna ask for evidence of the claims made against cspam or are you just going to take that post saying we love child rape at face value E: just going to put it here to make sure some helpful mod doesn’t edit it out later Icept posted:I'm not reading the CSPAM thread so this post is based on what other people have said. Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Oct 27, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 21:18
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Set fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Oct 29, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 21:18
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Raskolnikov38 posted:any of the mods or admins gonna ask for evidence of the claims made against cspam or are you just going to take that post saying we love child rape at face value https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY2xBNWrBZ4
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Oct 27, 2022 21:19
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KitConstantine posted:'Lost control' is the charitable side of the narrative of what I'm doing in this thread from what I've seen Not at all. You do a great job considering what you have to work with. People are just wondering why one group needs to be controlled heavily and the other can actively harass individuals with no repercussion.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:19
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A big flaming stink posted:without calling you out, do you have specific posts in mind when you talk about this? I tend to peruse the cspam and d&d threads for the most part, and "explicit support of russian war crimes" to me feels like a very uncommon sentiment in that thread. there's without a doubt a very gallows humor/macabre tone to quite a few posts, but majorian has been pretty diligent for probing people going "yay war crimes" even ironically. In this case I do not have specific examples. Since the crack downs in this thread about talking about CSPAM during the big blowup after Kit came back from vacation I've purposefully avoided it. Especially after the behavior of Calibanibal. But definitely I explicitly remember the day I really took a deep dive and it was just wall to the wall genocide denialism. ...Wait. The fact there is apparently ironic celebration of war crimes against Ukrainians is kind of telling, no?
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Oct 27, 2022 21:20
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RGX posted:I'd like an admin to tell us why this isnt the right course of action. The current way seems to be "as long as you aren't loving with other forums users or causing harm irl, having a discussion is fine." Now that's not codified somewhere, and like I always say context matters so ghoulish poo poo is going to be run even though it doesn't perfectly fit that. Modding is always going to be actually reading and deciding. Clearly people feel that is not working and we should do something different. That said, your question is why I am here asking questions and reading posts. I had/have an opinion how I would do things, I talked it out a bit with some other Admins and Mods and went "gently caress it, lets go into the threads and see what they say." I have a baseline of "Forever probe anyone who can't stop talking about other posters" and am starting from there. Hell, even THAT may be dumb as gently caress. I'm here to gather your thoughts and help me make the decision where to go from here. Every post and every argument in here is helping me decide. So to answer your question directly, I don't currently know if that is the right course of action for the forums.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:20
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KitConstantine posted:'Lost control' is the charitable side of the narrative of what I'm doing in this thread from what I've seen gently caress that, you're doing a great job and most sane people probably would have quit long before now.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:20
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Phlegmish posted:I generally don't care what C-SPAM gets up to, but if some of them are harassing specific goons through PMs, that really shouldn't be tolerated for even a second. I forgot who it was that posted a screenshot about this earlier, but that sort of behavior just crosses a line. I would be shocked if most on SA didn't have at least a couple of C-spam threads that they like/enjoy; personally I love the Doomsday Economics thread. I think part of the problem is that you end up a with a select number of threads with like-minded posters for whom they can shitpost however they want, the C-spam mods join in, and if you don't completely align with a particular mindset (for example, the Ukrainian thread: Russia bad, Ukraine worse (NAZIS!), West evil, so I guess Russia good?), you get chased off. Sometimes it seems like some of the threads are basically Internet Daycares for Adults, but that's just my dumb, lovely comparison.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:20
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KitConstantine posted:'Lost control' is the charitable side of the narrative of what I'm doing in this thread from what I've seen That is some serious "psychic war" mental gymnastics from people who I assume have made a second or primary job out of posting on the SomethingAwful dot com forums, or otherwise being opinionated on social media. That is some veeeeery narrow forum internet drama to commit to your RAM anywhere, much less carve a hill to die on out of.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:20
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Raskolnikov38 posted:any of the mods or admins gonna ask for evidence of the claims made against cspam or are you just going to take that post saying we love child rape at face value i think that maybe getting intensely tribal about posts on a forum is a generally bad thing to do because there is no deescalation there, you've convinced yourself you're posting badly to defeat fascism and its just tremendously corrosive for your emotional health yes this equally applies to people posting in the gbs thread, who are accused of being bloodthirsty nazi lovers who share war porn for their own sick little nazi pleasure maybe all of these claims are a little overblown to get mad at people who post in a nearly identical fashion in a different corner of this same website, and that is a weird as gently caress thing to do?
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Oct 27, 2022 21:21
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gone
Set fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Oct 29, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 21:21
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Nelson Mandingo posted:In this case I do not have specific examples. This is a problem imo
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Oct 27, 2022 21:21
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Nelson Mandingo posted:In this case I do not have specific examples. Since the crack downs in this thread about talking about CSPAM during the big blowup after Kit came back from vacation I've purposefully avoided it. Especially after the behavior of Calibanibal. But definitely I explicitly remember the day I really took a deep dive and it was just wall to the wall genocide denialism. and it gets hammered down by majorian when it comes up. Im just trying to say that there seems to be a sort of assumption that there are posts in CSPAM going "yay war crimes" and people are just kind of riding that vibe without actually verifying that such a thing is true
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Oct 27, 2022 21:21
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Athanatos posted:The current way seems to be "as long as you aren't loving with other forums users or causing harm irl, having a discussion is fine." Now that's not codified somewhere, and like I always say context matters so ghoulish poo poo is going to be run even though it doesn't perfectly fit that. Modding is always going to be actually reading and deciding. Clearly people feel that is not working and we should do something different. Please forever ban every poster who doesn't send me $5. I could really go for a gyro for dinner tonight. Pretty sure this will solve both the "who are the idiots here" and "what am I gonna eat tonight" issues at hand. Bing Bong, Problems Gone
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Oct 27, 2022 21:22
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UCS Hellmaker posted:And azoroth basically negating anything athonos is attempting to do by saying the sole issue is gbs is horseshit and completely paints this as a gbs issue and anything said here doesn't matter. Can you link me to where he says that, that's not something he's told me when we've talked about it.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:22
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Unless I'm missing something, this whole admin intervention seems to be a response to the Fascists of SA twitter account and it is very strange that it seems to be largely missing from this conversation.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:22
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:i think that maybe getting intensely tribal about posts on a forum is a generally bad thing to do because there is no deescalation there, you've convinced yourself you're posting badly to defeat fascism and its just tremendously corrosive for your emotional health only one side is making the claims buddy and it ain’t cspam
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Oct 27, 2022 21:23
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Icept posted:Not at all. You do a great job considering what you have to work with. People are just wondering why one group needs to be controlled heavily and the other can actively harass individuals with no repercussion. As far as I can tell, both sides have had harassment.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:23
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Third World Reagan posted:As far as I can tell, both sides have had harassment. Im about to harass you 
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Oct 27, 2022 21:24
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Raskolnikov38 posted:any of the mods or admins gonna ask for evidence of the claims made against cspam or are you just going to take that post saying we love child rape at face value They don't need to, as they wouldn't do anything about it anyway
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Oct 27, 2022 21:24
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The weird thing is that the "snuff" posting was maybe what, two tweets in like a 24 period? The one of the blowjob boys (lol) and then the toilet one, maybe, except it was labeled and I think that was mostly shouted down as being a "no one wants to see that" thing anyways that self-corrected. The rest of the sPoOkY ScArY content is just people sitting on tanks, maybe shooting javelins at something unseen. I haven't seen any gross poo poo in a long, long time tbh. If the main dig and complaint of CSPAM is "other threads are bloodthirsty snuff depositories" meanwhile they're usually subtly and even sometimes overtly cheering for a completely pointless imperialist fascist invasion that has killed tens of thousands To Own The Libs, I don't see these things as being on equal moral footing, like, uh at all.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:24
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Dandywalken posted:It would be cringe beyond description.  Ah yes because shitposting on dead gay forums this way is cringe, but shitposting that way is Cool and also Good.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:24
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Athanatos posted:The current way seems to be "as long as you aren't loving with other forums users or causing harm irl, having a discussion is fine." Now that's not codified somewhere, and like I always say context matters so ghoulish poo poo is going to be run even though it doesn't perfectly fit that. Modding is always going to be actually reading and deciding. Clearly people feel that is not working and we should do something different. This sentiment is very difficult to maintain when many people in this thread truly and sincerely believe that a number of people in CSPAM hold far-right beliefs verging onto outright nazism or celebration of civilian deaths. If they are correct in that belief, it is absolutely unreasonable for them simply to agree to disagree about this matter.
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Oct 27, 2022 21:24
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