UKMT Autumn 2022 - Get thee behind me, seitan.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Autumn 2022 - Get thee behind me, seitan.

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

Beefeater1980 posted:

I was at SOAS, really happy to see the student body still doing good things.

Same, but came away with mixed views on them to be honest. They did a lot good stuff when I did my masters there (in early 30s in 2014/15), like campaigning for living wage and solidarity actions for teaching, cleaning and other staff, but I came away with a bitter taste in my mouth, as they had some real issues with tolerating antisemitic behaviour on the part of some members and Union leadership.

To explain, as I realise the last few years will have rightly made people instinctively suspicious of such claims - this was before the 2015 election (ie: it was during the Milliband period), and predates the large-scale weaponisation of antisemitism accusations against Corbyn.

It also isn't based on dubious nonsense like 'Corbyn once passed someone in a corridor', but was based on a number of personal experiences during the debates over a vote in support of BDS - which led to some jewish students being targetted by overzealous campaigners. The two worst incidents I personally witnessed was someone (a Lebanese student) making the comment (to a British jew with distant family in Israel) - "We don't want to kill your family, just drive them into the sea" (which was framed as them being reasonable), and one group incident when BDS campaigners in matching shirts came over to a table of British/American jewish students in the bar and started stamping their feet at them whilst chanting and shouting at them. One of the (male) students later broke down in tears to me in the bar later that night.

The Union leadership (one of who was in the group in the bar) entirely ignored reports about these from multiple people, including me.

TL/DR: it did a lot of good stuff, but housed a few real shits who got overexcited by the BDS campaign and directed it at individual jewish students, and then did nothing about them. Student politics is indeed the worst.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:02

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# ? May 20, 2024 20:38

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Since we were talking about Bastani being kind of sus recently:

https://twitter.com/tom_gann/status/1587443201446711300?s=46&t=jkZUTUUwM6HDhckGMnfvhA

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:07

Barry Foster: Dec 24, 2007; What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)

I just came back from Amsterdam after a long weekend

It is infuriating how well everything runs in Europe compared to here. And how cheap stuff like public transport is (and Amsterdam is not exactly a cheap European city!!)

Stuff just works. Every place has its problems, of course, but coming back here was like going from a mid-range, energy efficient, road-safe modern car to a knackered old 1982 Ford Escort with hosed suspension, one wing mirror and a broken radio. That is inexplicably 3x more expensive

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:07

Apraxin: Feb 22, 2006; General-Admiral

thank god the sensible grown-ups are back in charge
https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1587366150924636163

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:23

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Darth Walrus posted:

Bastani

The problem with neoliberalism being so poo poo and devoid of ideas and alter-globalism being effectively silenced and there being so much reactionary/troll money around for increasingly desperate attention seekers is that it leaves a lot of room for "the left wing case for absolute monarchism" and not as much space as there should be for "the case for armed Zapatistas expropriating all of Aaron Bastani's trousers."

e:

Tigey posted:

TL/DR: it did a lot of good stuff, but housed a few real shits who got overexcited by the BDS campaign and directed it at individual jewish students, and then did nothing about them. Student politics is indeed the worst.

Jews are the one group of people you're never allowed to criticize according to the people who do nothing but do that.

https://twitter.com/echo_chamberz/status/1586542962300706816

Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Nov 1, 2022

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:28

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Tigey posted:

Same, but came away with mixed views on them to be honest. They did a lot good stuff when I did my masters there (in early 30s in 2014/15), like campaigning for living wage and solidarity actions for teaching, cleaning and other staff, but I came away with a bitter taste in my mouth, as they had some real issues with tolerating antisemitic behaviour on the part of some members and Union leadership.

To explain, as I realise the last few years will have rightly made people instinctively suspicious of such claims - this was before the 2015 election (ie: it was during the Milliband period), and predates the large-scale weaponisation of antisemitism accusations against Corbyn.

It also isn't based on dubious nonsense like 'Corbyn once passed someone in a corridor', but was based on a number of personal experiences during the debates over a vote in support of BDS - which led to some jewish students being targetted by overzealous campaigners. The two worst incidents I personally witnessed was someone (a Lebanese student) making the comment (to a British jew with distant family in Israel) - "We don't want to kill your family, just drive them into the sea" (which was framed as them being reasonable), and one group incident when BDS campaigners in matching shirts came over to a table of British/American jewish students in the bar and started stamping their feet at them whilst chanting and shouting at them. One of the (male) students later broke down in tears to me in the bar later that night.

The Union leadership (one of who was in the group in the bar) entirely ignored reports about these from multiple people, including me.

TL/DR: it did a lot of good stuff, but housed a few real shits who got overexcited by the BDS campaign and directed it at individual jewish students, and then did nothing about them. Student politics is indeed the worst.

Thing is though, people from the Middle East have a very different history with Israel than the UK does.
In particular Lebanon where in 1982 the Sabra & Shatila massacre occurred where over 2000 Palestinian refugees & Lebanese were killed in just 2 days by christian Phalange militia under the cover of Israeli military protection.
I have friends whose Egyptian husbands are old enough to have actually fought the Israeli army in Sinai in the 70s. They also see no problem in equating Israel with Jews (as much of the western world has no problem equating Arab countries with Islam).

So I think when you raising the issue of anti-semitism with individuals who have that different experience (and without a doubt, their families and friends 'back home' probably rehearse the history repeatedly - same as Brits do in relation to our history - or the US does in relation to 9-11) there's a much more complex discussion to be had and I can quite well imagine that a union president may not have felt remotely up to that - and indeed without knowing who the president was & what his or her background was, may have had a lot of sympathy for the expressed views.

NB this is NOT saying any of what you experienced was right, just trying to say things are not as simple to those with a different experience.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:39

jiggerypokery: Feb 1, 2012; ...But I could hardly wait six months with a red hot jape like that under me belt.

Tigey posted:

Same, but came away with mixed views on them to be honest. They did a lot good stuff when I did my masters there (in early 30s in 2014/15), like campaigning for living wage and solidarity actions for teaching, cleaning and other staff, but I came away with a bitter taste in my mouth, as they had some real issues with tolerating antisemitic behaviour on the part of some members and Union leadership.

To explain, as I realise the last few years will have rightly made people instinctively suspicious of such claims - this was before the 2015 election (ie: it was during the Milliband period), and predates the large-scale weaponisation of antisemitism accusations against Corbyn.

It also isn't based on dubious nonsense like 'Corbyn once passed someone in a corridor', but was based on a number of personal experiences during the debates over a vote in support of BDS - which led to some jewish students being targetted by overzealous campaigners. The two worst incidents I personally witnessed was someone (a Lebanese student) making the comment (to a British jew with distant family in Israel) - "We don't want to kill your family, just drive them into the sea" (which was framed as them being reasonable), and one group incident when BDS campaigners in matching shirts came over to a table of British/American jewish students in the bar and started stamping their feet at them whilst chanting and shouting at them. One of the (male) students later broke down in tears to me in the bar later that night.

The Union leadership (one of who was in the group in the bar) entirely ignored reports about these from multiple people, including me.

TL/DR: it did a lot of good stuff, but housed a few real shits who got overexcited by the BDS campaign and directed it at individual jewish students, and then did nothing about them. Student politics is indeed the worst.

I didn't go to soas but I do know people who did, leftists obviously, who were convinced by the accusations of antisemitism within the membership based on things they saw amongst activists there. There was a slither of truth to it all, which made the lie work.

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Thing is though, people from the Middle East have a very different history with Israel than the UK does.
In particular Lebanon where in 1982 the Sabra & Shatila massacre occurred where over 2000 Palestinian refugees & Lebanese were killed in just 2 days by christian Phalange militia under the cover of Israeli military protection.
I have friends whose Egyptian husbands are old enough to have actually fought the Israeli army in Sinai in the 70s. They also see no problem in equating Israel with Jews (as much of the western world has no problem equating Arab countries with Islam).

So I think when you raising the issue of anti-semitism with individuals who have that different experience (and without a doubt, their families and friends 'back home' probably rehearse the history repeatedly - same as Brits do in relation to our history - or the US does in relation to 9-11) there's a much more complex discussion to be had and I can quite well imagine that a union president may not have felt remotely up to that - and indeed without knowing who the president was & what his or her background was, may have had a lot of sympathy for the expressed views.

NB this is NOT saying any of what you experienced was right, just trying to say things are not as simple to those with a different experience.

There is an element of the left that doesn't distinguish Jews from Israel deliberately or otherwise. My dad was horrible for it. It's obviously an incredibly insidious thing when the Israeli right weaponise it to discredit critisms of their policies, but it isn't based on absolutely nothing

jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Nov 1, 2022

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:41

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

BougieBitch posted:

The flip side tho is that Liz Truss just blew up institutional trust in UK government debt less than a month ago, so while it's true that you can deficit spend at times, it isn't clear that the UK is in a situation where that could be done without issues. Of course, raising taxes would be a much better option, but it sort of seems like at present the damage from Brexit and the associated issue with the import/export market might mean that there needs to be an actual "tightening of the belt".

I think by breaking away from the EU, the UK may no longer be a big enough market to opt for deficit spending as a policy in practice - it is frequently brought up with regards to US policy, and it makes sense for China or the EU too, but I don't think now is actually a good time for the government to increase expenditures without also increasing tax. We had like 10 years of near-zero interest rates which could have easily supported government spending on infrastructure, but now the range of viable projects is going to be greatly reduced due to current global inflation.

That said, on a case-by-case basis you definitely can still do certain projects that might be predicted to have great enough economic impact to generate tax revenue which offsets the initial spending, but even from a left-policy perspective this is done by taxing and spending counter-cyclically, it isn't actually a good idea to just create a bunch of programs while refusing to ever tax the rich fucks who free-ride on whatever infrastructure you build to keep the peons peaceful

Edit: Note, I am an American so take my take with a pinch of salt. Still, none of that is to say that cutting the NHS is a good idea, or that infrastructure improvements or similar couldn't be worthwhile, just that "We'll pay for it later" isn't great when the global markets have just essentially jacked up your interest rates because of a budget that got pitched (not even implemented)!

In terms of what I mean by "limited range of projects", the high inflation at present is bad for borrowers and good for lenders (point of clarity, high inflation is good for debt holders, but it is almost always a bad time to ADD debt as interest rates are going to correspond to inflation), and that's true whether you are a person, a business, or a government. Governments do have the flexibility to defer payment to a later time in many cases and have more capacity to just suddenly increase income through taxes, but that is still dependent on being a reliable borrower institutionally, and the whole situation with bonds makes that somewhat shaky ground to explore right now.

Macroeconomics is a field with a lot of abstraction, but I'm not really sure what the UK PRODUCES right now other than misery for the inhabitants, so there is some real danger of capital flight (and to at least some extent this has already happened as companies ditched for the EU as a result of Brexit). With so much of the economy tied up in financial services in London, and comparatively little in goods (with the added complication of lacking land borders too), I really don't think either Labs or Cons have any hope of successfully expanding government services, certainly not with any of the current crop at the helm

QE can still provide cheap debt at this moment because BoE rates are still well below inflation, and given that the high levels of inflation aren't being fueled by excess demand it's arguably still a good avenue for funding investment.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 15:49

Noxville: Dec 7, 2003

Apraxin posted:

thank god the sensible grown-ups are back in charge
https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1587366150924636163

In both parties

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1587444449872838656?s=46&t=yKfqerWY9KbC8JfNgq9WUw

Starmer here apparently disagreeing with legal precedents from the mid-80s

# ? Nov 1, 2022 16:09

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; ~*4 LIFE*~

Love to have regular panic attacks caused by our government

# ? Nov 1, 2022 16:14

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Starmer is a such a sniveling little coward

# ? Nov 1, 2022 16:16

sebzilla: Mar 17, 2009; Kid's blasting everything in sight with that new-fangled musket.

Noxville posted:

In both parties

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1587444449872838656?s=46&t=yKfqerWY9KbC8JfNgq9WUw

Starmer here apparently disagreeing with legal precedents from the mid-80s

Rather more recent than the 80s in this particular circumstance but yeah it does look that way

quote:

In late 2020, Bell v Tavistock considered whether under-16s with gender dysphoria could be Gillick competent to consent to receiving puberty blockers. Due to the unique specifics of that treatment, the High Court concluded that in such cases the answer will almost always be 'no', a priori.[12] In late 2021, the Court of Appeal overturned Bell v Tavistock, as the clinic's policies and practices had not been found to be unlawful.[13]

# ? Nov 1, 2022 16:18

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

jiggerypokery posted:

I didn't go to soas but I do know people who did, leftists obviously, who were convinced by the accusations of antisemitism within the membership based on things they saw amongst activists there. There was a slither of truth to it all, which made the lie work.

There is an element of the left that doesn't distinguish Jews from Israel deliberately or otherwise. My dad was horrible for it. It's obviously an incredibly insidious thing when the Israeli right weaponise it to discredit critisms of their policies, but it isn't based on absolutely nothing

Not just on the left! Right wingers do the same! I think most of the conspiracy nuts from all wings and none are guilty of it.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 16:20

Scientastic: Mar 1, 2010; TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒

Noxville posted:

In both parties

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1587444449872838656?s=46&t=yKfqerWY9KbC8JfNgq9WUw

Starmer here apparently disagreeing with legal precedents from the mid-80s

This argument also completely relies on parents being reasonable custodians of their child�s welfare, which you�d have thought that a former lawyer and director of public prosecutions would know is not a given.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:04

Mebh: May 10, 2010

He's such a spineless, useless poo poo with a clear authoritarian streak. gently caress him, the horse he rode in on and anyone who supports him. Gonna write to my MP and ask him to justify supporting him. That'll be a lark.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:07

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

He doesn't believe in it for a second, because he'd be fine using the law as a bludgeon when it was for something where the parent's decision was unpopular with the public and press (say, the child needs and wants a blood transfusion but the parents have religious objections) but is conveniently pretending that he sides with all the 'good reasonable parents' for transphobe points.

Which just tells me that he's susceptible to the kind of poo poo show that happens around every Charlie Gard and Archie Battersbee case, because the pseudoreligious con artists that coalesce around those stop short of things that people find 'a bit weird' like opposing blood transfusions or shellfish but are absolutely fine with the worst kinds of anti-LGBT anti-abortion anti-vaccine and anti-sexual health nonsense.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:35

Apraxin: Feb 22, 2006; General-Admiral

headline: 'police investigating whether the petrol bomber could maybe possibly have been a right-wing extremist'

article:

quote:

It emerged yesterday that after hurling the petrol bombs, Leak told coach drivers waiting to transport migrants: 'Do you know what you're doing? Your children should be raped and killed!'

'All hell broke loose' when he was seen laughing as he threw the devices at the centre where nearly 1,000 migrants were brought for processing less than 24 hours earlier.

His social media profiles painted a disturbing picture of some of his views.

One of his rants states: 'The next time the job centre sanctions your money for not looking for enough work asked (sic) them about the thousands of people getting benefits cannot speak English cannot write English.

'How are they looking for work 4 times. I have put in freedom of information request. How many people cannot speak English right (sic) English Are receiving unemployment benefits clearly States you cannot claim benefits if not looking for work all of these people should be excluded from benefit.

'Next time you go to the job centre show them this message if they sanctioned you they are breaking the law they cannot have one rule for 1 and a different from the other you can clearly not look for work if you cannot read English speak English they are breaking the law time to stand up.'

A source told The Telegraph that the bomber had previously been investigated for child sex offences, and threatened to kill himself while being questioned by police.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:38

1965917: Oct 4, 2005

Noxville posted:

In both parties

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1587444449872838656?s=46&t=yKfqerWY9KbC8JfNgq9WUw

Starmer here apparently disagreeing with legal precedents from the mid-80s

Every day this ~~man~~ spineless weasel finds new ways to disappoint me

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:44

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Apraxin posted:

headline: 'police investigating whether the petrol bomber could maybe possibly have been a right-wing extremist'

Who's going around giving luxury SUVs to nazi nonces on jobseekers (these days)?

Strong small business owner who managed to gently caress up their own life through poor personal decisions energy all around.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:46

mrpwase: Apr 21, 2010; I HAVE GREAT AVATAR IDEAS
For the Many, Not the Few

_ posted:

How many people cannot speak English right (sic) English Are receiving unemployment benefits

Bitter lol

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:51

DiscoWitch: Oct 16, 2009; uwu

Rarity posted:

Love to have regular panic attacks caused by our government

Very much same. I'm trying to plan moving to Scotland

# ? Nov 1, 2022 17:55

Tarnop: Nov 25, 2013; Pull me out

Noxville posted:

In both parties

https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1587444449872838656?s=46&t=yKfqerWY9KbC8JfNgq9WUw

Starmer here apparently disagreeing with legal precedents from the mid-80s

Harm reduction

# ? Nov 1, 2022 18:34

Jeherrin: Jun 7, 2012

At what point do we put mumsnet on the same radicalised list as the EDL and co, seriously? How is that it�s become this insane pseudo-bellweather?

# ? Nov 1, 2022 18:49

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

They're the thin 'common sense' end of the wedge for all kinds of crazy nonsense like
https://twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1587398033192386560

Which generally ends somewhere around
https://twitter.com/yungz0rn/status/1587397606241615873

Just complete constructed fear of the Other even if that Other is far less of a danger to them than the fascists and Christian nationalists behind GC.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 18:59

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Parenting in general is bad, it is basically just a small business tyrant but with children instead of employees. It should be abolished.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:02

crispix: Mar 28, 2015; Grand-Maman m'a raconté
_{(Les éditions des amitiés franco-québécoises)}

Hello, dear

Guavanaut posted:

They're the thin 'common sense' end of the wedge for all kinds of crazy nonsense like
https://twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1587398033192386560

Which generally ends somewhere around
https://twitter.com/yungz0rn/status/1587397606241615873

Just complete constructed fear of the Other even if that Other is far less of a danger to them than the fascists and Christian nationalists behind GC.

i'd just assume whoever made that had developed a complex due to having a vag like a runover jellyfish tbh

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:08

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Some people are quite happy to build walls around their brains if it means they get to police everyone else's brain walls.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:11

DesperateDan: Dec 10, 2005; Where's my cow?

Is that my cow?

No it isn't, but it still tramples my bloody lavender.

getting towards "chase the prospective labour candidate down the road with a broom come election time" levels of radicalisation here tbh

the outdoor one too, with the stiff bristles and all

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:16

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I broke the shaft off the last one of those I used, load of wank, need a proper broom handle for my powerful brooming action

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:19

sebzilla: Mar 17, 2009; Kid's blasting everything in sight with that new-fangled musket.

OwlFancier posted:

I broke the shaft off the last wank, need a proper handle for my powerful action

Seek medical help

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:23

Tarnop: Nov 25, 2013; Pull me out

DesperateDan posted:

getting towards "chase the prospective labour candidate down the road with a broom come election time" levels of radicalisation here tbh

the outdoor one too, with the stiff bristles and all

I have spent some time thinking about all the bullshit the current Labour party supports that I would like to confront my local candidate with but eventually decided I'll just laugh in their face and tell them to gently caress off

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:23

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

sebzilla posted:

Seek medical help

buddy i have already been to hospital for that and it's the reason i was prescribed sounding

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:24

Mebh: May 10, 2010

I left my broom out in the rain and it won't broom anymore. It just sorta brushes over things as the bristles all curved. Wtb new broom to chase clive betts with. Pst.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:29

Z the IVth: Jan 28, 2009; The trouble with your "expendable machines"; Fun Shoe

Apraxin posted:

headline: 'police investigating whether the petrol bomber could maybe possibly have been a right-wing extremist'

article:

Darwin award winner right there.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:53

Mebh: May 10, 2010

Just browsing headlines and

Thought i was on a parody site honestly.

Decent dead cat I suppose.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:55

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

honestly is going on a reality tv show really a sillier way of leaving parliament than taking the hundreds?

# ? Nov 1, 2022 19:59

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Cameron put his live penis into a dead/live hog's mouth, so Hans Mouthcock receiving a dead marsupial penis on primetime TV seems prime ministerial and dignified by comparison imo

# ? Nov 1, 2022 20:01

fuctifino: Jun 11, 2001

Wanksock knew his time was up in the party after the handshake incident... or should I say lack of handshake incident.

https://twitter.com/cooperphil1/status/1584580326713479169

# ? Nov 1, 2022 20:08

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

crispix posted:

i'd just assume whoever made that had developed a complex due to having a vag like a runover jellyfish tbh

I don't think they've ever had any kids by the sounds of it, so they're just applying ridiculous appeal to nature standards to other hypothetical women.

It's like "the only moral abortion is my abortion" but "if your babby is too big or your pelvis too small you've just got to die or you're a bad mother."

With a dash of 'god' stuff in there. I'm not sure if many of the bronze age religions had much to say about giving birth other than "you can't make a baby up the bum" and "try to avoid feeding it to a big metal cow with fire coming out of its nose once it's born" so I think the religion at play there is the First Self-Righteous Church of I'm Better than You.

OwlFancier posted:

Some people are quite happy to build walls around their brains if it means they get to police everyone else's brain walls.

This too, a lot of it is about creating a locus of control or something. Which for a lot of people seems to revolve around idealizing eras when they had gently caress all rights and died all the time.

OwlFancier posted:

honestly is going on a reality tv show really a sillier way of leaving parliament than taking the hundreds?

Just name a hamlet Kangaroo Dongs, it's no worse than most other English village name and you could quit by taking the Hundreds of Kangaroo Dongs.

# ? Nov 1, 2022 20:12

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# ? May 20, 2024 20:38

crispix: Mar 28, 2015; Grand-Maman m'a raconté
_{(Les éditions des amitiés franco-québécoises)}

Hello, dear

Guavanaut posted:

"you can't make a baby up the bum"

# ? Nov 1, 2022 20:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Autumn 2022 - Get thee behind me, seitan.

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