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The fact is that it's only being disputed how scary it is that people are being beaten arrested and lose their jobs. It was never even contested that the protests achieved change just that their existence showed change, which is laughable
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Nov 2, 2022 17:05
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I maintain that six protesters being executed by police, in addition to all the other people police execute on a fairly consistent basis, is a rather effective tool by the police to stifle protest and dissent. None of the articles linked even say they were killed by police, that's largely conjecture, at least one was definitely a suicide, and they certainly weren't killed while or close to when they were protesting. That's not a message or a tool. Uncle Boogeyman posted:As far as I can tell, "everyone who protests or pushes for change being slain" is a narrative that has only so far been presented by you. Ghost Leviathan posted:Thing is if you start actually being successful with leftist agitation, despite being utterly reviled by every part of the media and political apparatus, including conservatives and liberals, and calling for meaningful change, eventually the cops just shoot you. Uncle Boogeyman posted:
And that's also with implicit approval of everybody who chimed in to agree with both the statement and the sentiment. While there are issues with the police, that does not add up to a grand conspiracy to murder all public dissenters, as demonstrated by all the people who are free to dissent publicly. And in fact, one of the major problems with the police is that they aren't under the control or supervision of the federal government, which is why it's so complicated for the problem to be addressed nationally.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:17
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Oracle posted:I remembered hearing a This American Life on this where Jelani Cobb went and checked things out in 2019. You can find it here. (second segment) It didn’t go into the questions I was specifically asking, but still a good/informative listen. Thanks!
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Nov 2, 2022 17:18
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It was six separate executions if you want to get technical. Again, leaving out all the other unarmed civilians executed by police over the last several years. That's not a mass execution. Even assuming it is a CIA/FBI/(?) plot to fabricate suicides, accidents and overdoses, this would be more a targeted assassination campaign. To be technical, mass executions generally happen...on a single day. And these deaths happened after the protests? Wouldn't this be a targeted assassination campaign in retaliation to protests over a prolonged period of time, which is uh sort the opposite of a mass killing to end a protest no matter how you twist it. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Probably talking about how between 2014 and 2019, there were 6 people related to the protests who died. Definitely hyperbolic. Harold Fjord posted:The fact is that it's only being disputed how scary it is that people are being beaten arrested and lose their jobs. It was never even contested that the protests achieved change just that their existence showed change, which is laughable This really doesn't prove the all powerful conspiracy to stymie all leftist progress or political success. Besides if shadow assassins come after anyone who calls the Republican voters an rear end in a top hat, again, are they really that competent?
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Nov 2, 2022 17:24
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It's been repeatedly pointed out that it's not a conspiracy, just class behavior. at this point I can only assume you're ignoring arguments that don't fit what you want to believe. Which is fine but you certainly aren't proving anything about the dumb claims you're making. If you're idea was so great, someone would be using it.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:25
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DarkCrawler posted:That's not a mass execution. Even assuming it is a CIA/FBI/(?) plot to fabricate suicides, accidents and overdoses, this would be more a targeted assassination campaign. To be technical, mass executions generally happen...on a single day. And these deaths happened after the protests? Wouldn't this be a targeted assassination campaign in retaliation to protests over a prolonged period of time, which is uh sort the opposite of a mass killing to end a protest no matter how you twist it. Fair enough, I'm comfortable calling it a targeted assassination campaign. Still seems to serve the same purpose of stifling protest, don't you think? I mean if I were in Ferguson, I'd be less inclined to protest knowing the cops were running a targeted assassination campaign against protesters. Especially given that, as I pointed out earlier, this works in concert with the police generally being given license to murder with impunity. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 17:27
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I really didn't expect DarkCrawler to invent an entirely new way of being unbelievably annoying, not this late in the game! I don't claim any special knowledge of federal law enforcement/intelligence taking action against left-wing groups. But considering that we know they did it in the past, and accomplished their goals while suffering no repercussions whatsoever, it seems foolish to think that they just stopped at some point, out of the goodness of their hearts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2022 17:29
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SlothfulCobra posted:And that's also with implicit approval of everybody who chimed in to agree with both the statement and the sentiment. While there are issues with the police, that does not add up to a grand conspiracy to murder all public dissenters, as demonstrated by all the people who are free to dissent publicly. And in fact, one of the major problems with the police is that they aren't under the control or supervision of the federal government, which is why it's so complicated for the problem to be addressed nationally. there is also this https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland in addition, a ton of people from The Women's March were broadly charged with a plethora of crimes they didn't participate in. You can argue those charges were/will get dismissed but in the interim it screws up lives and livelihood, cost money to defend against and causes stress. That also chills protests and participation. Cranappleberry fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 17:31
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Halloween Jack posted:I really didn't expect DarkCrawler to invent an entirely new way of being unbelievably annoying, not this late in the game! Any comment on the details you requested? Halloween Jack posted:I don't claim any special knowledge of federal law enforcement/intelligence taking action against left-wing groups. But considering that we know they did it in the past, and accomplished their goals while suffering no repercussions whatsoever, it seems foolish to think that they just stopped at some point, out of the goodness of their hearts. Again, they could act with far more impunity in the past, this wasn't because of a coordinated conspiracy against leftists directed from both high and low echelons that will automatically act against any leftist success, which is why all leftist failures to do things that work are justified automatically. It was because America was racist as gently caress and also there was this thing called the Soviet Union. And even then they weren't this omniscient and competent, have you seen the War on Terror? Someone, anyone, what will happen if a leftist would achieve success through the politics of hate and fear? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 17:31
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https://mobile.twitter.com/MonmouthPoll/status/1587822016568213505 it looks like fetterman can probably still win. i think walker loses, kelly wins and fetterman wins. nevada is hosed. maybe vance loses and "maybe" johnson, but the rest are either safe blue or red. house is hosed but that was always there.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:32
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I maintain that six protesters being executed by police, in addition to all the other people police execute on a fairly consistent basis, is a rather effective tool by the police to stifle protest and dissent. As far as I can tell, "everyone who protests or pushes for change being slain" is a narrative that has only so far been presented by you. Cori Bush was a huge Ferguson activist, got elected to Congress from the district (MO-01) that contains Ferguson, and is now running for reelection and projected to easily win. A bunch of Ferguson activists (Action for Change) have been getting their endorsed candidates elected at every level of St. Louis politics to directly target a police department that's very hostile to change. Another is a city councilwoman. Doesn't look like it worked very well.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:37
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Fair enough, I'm comfortable calling it a targeted assassination campaign. Still seems to serve the same purpose of stifling protest, don't you think? I mean if I were in Ferguson, I'd be less inclined to protest knowing the cops were running a targeted assassination campaign against protesters. Especially given that, as I pointed out earlier, this works in concert with the police generally being given license to murder with impunity. If you hadn’t listened to that link that Oracle posted, I’d highly recommend it: Oracle posted:I remembered hearing a This American Life on this where Jelani Cobb went and checked things out in 2019. You can find it here. (second segment) It gives a good overview on locals’ views (assuming you are unfamiliar/aren’t a STL local) along with overlooked facts
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Nov 2, 2022 17:40
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I imagine that if something similar happened in an "enemy" nation like Russia or Iran, where several protest leaders were found dead under mysterious circumstances, there would be a lot ink spilled over how they were obviously murdered by those brutal authoritarian regimes. The term "mass executions" might even be used. Obviously that's not proof that the US government definitely killed these people, but it should be an insight as to why people who are less than sympathetic to the US regime would treat these cases with skepticism and use hyperbolic language.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:43
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https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1587564274548965379
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Nov 2, 2022 17:44
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Halloween Jack posted:I really didn't expect DarkCrawler to invent an entirely new way of being unbelievably annoying, not this late in the game! Do you remember COINTELPRO? There has always been action against any leftwing groups in this country. In fact, our government has worked really hard to crush any leftist governments in central and south america often installing military dictatorships or rightwing governments because it helps our companies have access to the resources in those countries. Why would you think they wouldn't do the same within our borders? The book "Washington Bullets" By Vijay Prashad goes through the history of the CIA plots in these countries. If anyone has any suggestions on a book about CIA plots against left wing groups in the US I would love to hear it. here is more recent anti leftist and anti journalist efforts by government agencies https://www.kpbs.org/news/midday-edition/2019/03/07/report-government-kept-tabs-journalists-instigator ManBoyChef fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 17:44
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Who got bribed to put this poll together?
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Nov 2, 2022 17:45
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Oracle posted:Cori Bush was a huge Ferguson activist, got elected to Congress from the district (MO-01) that contains Ferguson, and is now running for reelection and projected to easily win. That's great! I wish the activists in Ferguson success in the face of the murderous, fascist intimidation tactics being used against them.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:46
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Eric Cantonese posted:Who got bribed to put this poll together? I don't believe this poll either and figure it was a Democratic pollster but... They are just a Florida pollster for different groups. I still have major doubts.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:53
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DarkCrawler posted:Someone, anyone, what will happen if a leftist would achieve success through the politics of hate and fear? Same thing that happened to Carter in VA. They would be stymied by combined efforts of Ds and Rs. Their voters would inevitably drift away from electoralism as a means to accomplish leftist goals.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:56
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Oracle posted:Cori Bush was a huge Ferguson activist, got elected to Congress from the district (MO-01) that contains Ferguson, and is now running for reelection and projected to easily win. People being able to overcome adversity isn't evidence that the adversity never existed, if that's what you're trying to say here. This is a pretty weak argument imho. It's along similar lines of "well we elected a black president so I guess racism doesn't exist".
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Nov 2, 2022 17:56
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If Cori Bush could achieve leftist goals in Congress all by herself they would kill her, but she can't.
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Nov 2, 2022 17:59
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Charlie Crist again? 
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Nov 2, 2022 18:04
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Well the goal of the protests wasn't to get people elected necessarily, it was to restore civilian oversight to police departments that had broken free of it and becoming occupying forces nationwide. So success or not should probably be held against that standard, and that answer is probably going to have to come from those in the communities that protested. Nationally of course there has been nothing, but at the national level we're barely able to keep the lights on anymore as everybody is focused on either pretending everything is going to be alright, pretending they're holy warriors against literal demons, or grimly plowing ahead with labor discipline programs despite the screams so you'd definitely have to start with the flashpoint communities that began the movement in the first place, if one were to feel it's relevant to the 2022 midterms.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:04
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Harold Fjord posted:If Cori Bush could achieve leftist goals in Congress all by herself they would kill her, but she can't. I’m also not convinced the bullets that lit up her car in January didn’t come from a cop’s gun but I admittedly can’t substantiate that.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:05
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I’m also not convinced the bullets that lit up her car in January didn’t come from a cop’s gun but I admittedly can’t substantiate that. I too love it when I can uncritically assert things that align with my worldview while simultaneously dunking on, say, QAnon because their stupid conspiracies just don’t happen to be put forth by someone on my team.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:07
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I AM GRANDO posted:What baffles me is why people think that republicans can fix economic problems. They don’t even pretend to be able to do that. This time, they’re all campaigning on culture-war poo poo. It's not like the GOP doesn't have an economic platform. Republicans are very open about how they're going to fix the economy by slashing government spending to the bone, cutting taxes accordingly, and pumping all that money directly into private business so your job will be more prosperous and pay you lots more money. And don't forget stuff like purging the homeless to drive up home values, ethnically cleansing the country so Hispanic people won't be taking Good American Jobs, getting rid of regulations so big government red tape doesn't get in the way of making your business ideas work. The fact that none of that poo poo is actually good for the economy, and that it's mostly just blatant handouts to the rich and fascist favors to white supremacists, doesn't stop white working class folks with a bit of money to spend from loving every word of it. Fister Roboto posted:I imagine that if something similar happened in an "enemy" nation like Russia or Iran, where several protest leaders were found dead under mysterious circumstances, there would be a lot ink spilled over how they were obviously murdered by those brutal authoritarian regimes. The term "mass executions" might even be used. Obviously that's not proof that the US government definitely killed these people, but it should be an insight as to why people who are less than sympathetic to the US regime would treat these cases with skepticism and use hyperbolic language. I don't think I've ever seen "mass executions" used for the mysterious deaths of a couple of local protesters years after the event, not even in the most blatant US propaganda. If anything, this just seems like projection: you're justifying your hyperbolic claims by insisting that somebody else must surely have made similar hyperbolic claims toward another country's government at some point in the past.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:07
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i am a moron posted:I too love it when I can uncritically assert things that align with my worldview while simultaneously dunking on, say, QAnon because their stupid conspiracies just don’t happen to be put forth by someone on my team. I have to admit this is my favorite username/post combo in a minute
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Nov 2, 2022 18:11
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It's time to try trickle down economics for the eighth time! Surely it'll work this time.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:11
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I’m also not convinced the bullets that lit up her car in January didn’t come from a cop’s gun but I admittedly can’t substantiate that.  Why did they go through the hassle of tracking down Bush’s car just to shoot bullets at it while it was empty? Especially since you think they are bold enough to plot ahead to execute a number of activists?
Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 18:13
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Just lmao at quibbling over whether the constant execution of citizens by police across the nation counts as "mass"Kalit posted:Especially since you think they are bold enough to murder a number of activists? lmao if you think they aren't
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Nov 2, 2022 18:13
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Hi friends, Trying to sleuth out the real killers from the 2014 shootings and trying to define the word "mass" are not really relevant to the 2022 midterms and is getting non-productive. Feel free to take it to the chat thread, but try to keep the midterm thread focused on the actual midterms that are happening in less than a week.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:13
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I have to admit this is my favorite username/post combo in a minute Same, you’re posting utter bullshit here
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Nov 2, 2022 18:14
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i am a moron posted:Same, you’re posting utter bullshit here When someone clarifies that is something is their opinion and they can't prove it you really don't need to continuously pound on disagreeing with them like this. Calling it an uncritical assertion was just factually inaccurate, but we already know you disagree so what are you adding? Do you think it's impossible that cops did it or just unlikely?
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Nov 2, 2022 18:15
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Epic High Five posted:Well the goal of the protests wasn't to get people elected necessarily, it was to restore civilian oversight to police departments that had broken free of it and becoming occupying forces nationwide. So success or not should probably be held against that standard, and that answer is probably going to have to come from those in the communities that protested.
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Nov 2, 2022 18:16
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Unless there's been something immediately relevant to the midterms re: the BLM after-analysis I think we should move that to a thread more suited for it or shelve it for a bit, we're in the final week before the thread's namesake and surely there's stuff going on surrounding that that people following this thread would prefer to hear about and discuss.Uncle Boogeyman posted:I have to admit this is my favorite username/post combo in a minute This is far too meta for a D&D thread I'm afraid, I'm going to need to see a bit more grim seriousness from you in future, and ideally some graphs
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Nov 2, 2022 18:16
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God damnit Leon
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Nov 2, 2022 18:16
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Epic High Five posted:God damnit Leon 
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Nov 2, 2022 18:17
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Fister Roboto posted:I imagine that if something similar happened in an "enemy" nation like Russia or Iran, where several protest leaders were found dead under mysterious circumstances, there would be a lot ink spilled over how they were obviously murdered by those brutal authoritarian regimes. The term "mass executions" might even be used. Obviously that's not proof that the US government definitely killed these people, but it should be an insight as to why people who are less than sympathetic to the US regime would treat these cases with skepticism and use hyperbolic language. Is painting yourself with the same brush as the American media breathlessly writing about Russia or Iran something you're trying to do? That's how I read this post, but I can't imagine that's what you want to say. Can you clarify?
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Nov 2, 2022 18:24
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Harold Fjord posted:When someone clarifies that is something is their opinion and they can't prove it you really don't need to continuously pound on disagreeing with them like this. Calling it an uncritical assertion was just factually inaccurate, but we already know you disagree so what are you adding? Just posting my opinions, therefore they’re unassailable
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Nov 2, 2022 18:24
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If anyone feels like continuing the conversation, I'd be happy to do it in the gently caress the Police thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3926317&pagenumber=44#lastpost
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Nov 2, 2022 18:25
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