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I'm gonna be honest, any war is gonna seem big when you have like a dozen odd spin offs and side stories.
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Nov 6, 2022 19:36
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The conflict in ZZ wasn't even really a huge war. The Federation military was basically a crippled husk that had lost most of its punch due to the Zeta civil war because the Titans and AEUG both winnowed out the officer/pilot corps and the high end mobile suits, and the Federation government knew it and were ready to line up to be good little quislings. Axis conquering the world was mostly just a matter of course rather than a real conflict. The biggest conflict in ZZ is when Axis turned on itself.
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Nov 6, 2022 19:40
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Hilariously when we covered MSG through ZZ in our tabletop campaigns for Gundam ZZ ended up being a massive shitshow of a war compared to Zeta, but one of our player characters was a politician and somehow just kept horribly escalating things by accidentally saying the worst possible things at the worst possible times.
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Nov 6, 2022 19:54
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https://twitter.com/knightsexual/status/1589270110568869889?s=46&t=6b0IUZGpRmKLapsfkwb-3A
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Nov 6, 2022 19:56
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Arc Hammer posted:Watched the first episode of The Origin again this morning after the last G-Witch cuz I felt like it. That opening battle and the music is so loving good at emphasizing "The entire Earth Sphere is on fire." and how absolutely terrifying Mobile Suits are against conventional battle tactics. Rows of ships flying at each other in tight formation and blowing up because they're too stupid to realise this isn't the parade ground, while entirely consistent with later UC material such as 0083, does not in fact make for a particularly interesting or awe-inspiring battle, IMO.
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Nov 6, 2022 20:06
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Gripweed posted:https://twitter.com/knightsexual/status/1589270110568869889?s=46&t=6b0IUZGpRmKLapsfkwb-3A I see someone else watched that video about GenLock being trash and the insane quote about it being different from other Mecha shows because its character driven. Also: https://twitter.com/knightsexual/status/1589310062492729344 I want dem Dilanzas. Lemon-Lime posted:Rows of ships flying at each other in tight formation and blowing up because they're too stupid to realise this isn't the parade ground, while entirely consistent with later UC material such as 0083, does not in fact make for a particularly interesting or awe-inspiring battle, IMO. I mean rows of ships flying in tight formation and being a wall of guns is kind of standard operating procedure for space opera fleet battles. You know what happens when we've gone a while without a war and technology has crept up very fast in the interim years? We tend to fight pretty badly until we figure out the new paradigm. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Nov 6, 2022 |
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Nov 6, 2022 20:18
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Arc Hammer posted:I see someone else watched that video about GenLock being trash and the insane quote about it being different from other Mecha shows because its character driven. Go charge that artillery and machine guns boys, we'll be home by Xmas.
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Nov 6, 2022 20:23
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Caros posted:Go charge that artillery and machine guns boys, we'll be home by Xmas. The sad thing is that kind of thinking was already outdated a full hundred years before the Battle of the Frontiers in 1914 but the cavalry corps were too drat stubborn and kept insisting on getting a decisive charge in right to the end of 1918. Someone should have smacked them upside the head. Anyhow with regards to Loum it serves its purposes of showing the old ways of warfare are horrifically out of date and the consequences of not heeding that warning. It tells a grim story with a lot of spectacle.
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Nov 6, 2022 20:28
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The thing about Loum is that the Federation's old style tactics were absolutely winning the fight they came to win. Even before the Origin, it was established that the Federation fleet kicked the everloving poo poo out of the Zeon fleet and nearly shattered it - they just had no concept that things that performed like mobile suits even existed.
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Nov 6, 2022 20:39
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And as much as Loum became the largest military disaster in human history, it was still a very close run thing that hinged almost entirely on timing and split second decision making. If the Tianem Fleet had managed to intercept the Zeon fleet after they withdrew from the initial engagement they very well could have crippled Zeon. It wouldn't have stopped Revil's second wave from getting mauled by the Mobile Suit corps but destroying the Zeon fleet would have caused a logistics nightmare for the rest of the war. Suits are no good if you don't have the ships to carry them and nobody had built a long range mobile suit yet. OYW stuff is also kinda the only place in Gundam where you can make this kind of assessment because there's so much material to read up on. You'll never get a full picture but that's kind of the point. War is so all encompassing that trying to make a definitive beginning to end description of it is impossible. Instead you get these flashpoints, individual experiences, conflicting reports, hearsay and ambiguity that lends itself to building up this defining moment in UC history. You don't get that as much with the other series. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Nov 6, 2022 |
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Nov 6, 2022 20:45
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Warmachine posted:Even Wing is getting kinda hot by the time the White Fang arc starts, but even the Eve War feels small compared to what it was supposed to represent in show. The Even war is small. Barely more than 100,000 dead. Sure, that's much worse than the McGillis Fareed incident, but remarkably tiny for a 'war to end all wars'. (Also, I'm liking the latest episodes of Witch, just since the topic came up. Not loving it yet, but some of the things I didn't like are getting handled better, and other things that didn't make sense are being shown to have a reason for being odd.)
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Nov 6, 2022 21:42
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Arc Hammer posted:I mean rows of ships flying in tight formation and being a wall of guns is kind of standard operating procedure for space opera fleet battles. Yes, and it's bad! They could at least do turn-of-the-century naval tactics.
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Nov 6, 2022 22:33
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Lemon-Lime posted:Yes, and it's bad! Part of the reason it had gone back to the old pre-carrier days was the Minovksy particle loving up what we consider to be modern naval doctrine. Long range missile strikes were right out because you couldn't build a guidance system that was cheap, light, and resilient. And even getting two of those would be a stretch--certainly not enough to build standoff range missiles. It pushed tactics back to the age of massed cannon fire and dumbfire torpedos at best. One thing I never got a read on was if Gundam took the position that the traditional "fighter jet" was a liability in space or not. We see the Federation fielding small one-person craft, but the franchise never feels like it comments on their effectiveness outside them being fodder for mobile suits (much like everything else that isn't a mobile suit). edit: I suppose the existance of the Core Booster suggests it thought there was a place but I've been adopting the "hard" sci-fi stance recently that in most cases anything a theoretical space fighter could do a missile could do better. Gundam is unique here because the same conceit that forces warships into close-range combat also works to justify why you need humans piloting what are functionally space-capable F-8 Crusaders. Warmachine fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 03:51
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The fighter jet is a liability because AMBAC means it's going to burn more propellant changing its orientation than a mobile suit of the same power will. Core Booster gets a pass because it was that or Balls and they had a bunch of Core Fighters that the GMs wouldn't need.
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Nov 7, 2022 04:05
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wdarkk posted:The fighter jet is a liability because AMBAC means it's going to burn more propellant changing its orientation than a mobile suit of the same power will. Core Booster gets a pass because it was that or Balls and they had a bunch of Core Fighters that the GMs wouldn't need. Plus the Core Booster has fire power comparable to a GM unlike the Ball
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Nov 7, 2022 04:24
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Just following the UC Gundam logic, ye olde line of battle but with z-axis seems viable but wouldn't it just be lazily optimal to opt for the absolute biggest wall (with some depth) if you're just going to shoot at the enemy at stand-off range?
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Nov 7, 2022 04:44
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They've made Psycho Gundam shirts Now, you might say "Why did they give the models such oversized shirts? Shouldn't they have given them shirts that fit?" They recommend you buy the larger size so you can do this. 
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Nov 7, 2022 05:36
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Gripweed posted:They've made Psycho Gundam shirts 
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Nov 7, 2022 06:11
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Loum has tactics would have been openly mocked by commanders in WW1 because it is hard to get even mediocre tactics into mass media. For example, Star Wars Andor is the first time we have seen anything resembling actual small squad tactics used by anyone in the Star Wars universe. And it was used by no name backwater security and the rebel's B team. It doesn't make sense for them to have better tactical sense than the galactic empire's finest and the best commandos in the rebel alliance. But this is the first time the production team cared to show anything resembling realistic tactics instead of making it visually dramatic and also knows enough about modern warfare to pull it off. Static walls of motionless spaceships makes a great visual statement while being really easy to pull off. Meanwhile doing anything more is hard and requires a deep understanding of military history as opposed to "WWI is about lemmings charging machine guns".
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Nov 7, 2022 07:18
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verisimilitude is an important component of a good narrative but at the point where you're criticizing the show for not following realistic naval doctrine, i think you have left the realm where it's reasonable to find verisimilitude failing to be upheld in this aspect as ruining the entire scene
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Nov 7, 2022 07:27
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Argas posted:Just following the UC Gundam logic, ye olde line of battle but with z-axis seems viable but wouldn't it just be lazily optimal to opt for the absolute biggest wall (with some depth) if you're just going to shoot at the enemy at stand-off range? Funny enough "wall formation" is where the Terra Invicta meta has landed at this point in early access: heavy forward armor, overlapping point defense fire, slow advance toward the enemy. Mostly because past a certain point it is a pain in the rear end to manage maneuvers in that game but I digress... ninjewtsu posted:verisimilitude is an important component of a good narrative but at the point where you're criticizing the show for not following realistic naval doctrine, i think you have left the realm where it's reasonable to find verisimilitude failing to be upheld in this aspect as ruining the entire scene I suppose the see also here includes 'space fighters' and 'sound in space' and 'explosive decompression.'
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Nov 7, 2022 07:30
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wdarkk posted:The fighter jet is a liability because AMBAC means it's going to burn more propellant changing its orientation than a mobile suit of the same power will. Core Booster gets a pass because it was that or Balls and they had a bunch of Core Fighters that the GMs wouldn't need. This is only really a thing in data books, and some of the manga to be honest. It never comes up in UC animations as such. The only time the concept of AMBAC is talked about in any UC animation at all to my knowledge is one line in the first Mobile Suit Gundam movie, but it's a technician saying that the AMBAC system is ready for drop to Char when he's getting ready to launch in his Zaku II on Earth; which already makes it different to how AMBAC is described in those technical books. There is no mention of it during the same scene in the TV show, and no mention of any kind about AMBAC in Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ, Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack, Mobile Suit Gundam F91, Mobile Suit Victory Gundam, Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket, Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: Stardust Memory, Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team, Mobile Suit Gundam MS IGLOO: The Hidden One Year War, Mobile Suit Gundam MS IGLOO: Apocalypse 0079, Mobile Suit Gundam MS IGLOO: The Gravity Front, Mobile Suit Gundam: Unicorn, Mobile Suit Gundam: NT, Mobile Suit Gundam: Hathaway or even any of the short animation projects like the Gundam Evolve stuff. Indeed, not only is it not brought up in any of those but they appear to actively ignore it because the number of vernier thrusters on suits generally increases over time from 0079, which had none, probably due to a mix of budget and the creators not thinking it important, through to maybe F91, where the eponymous suit has nearly 60 verniers. Which are usually placed near joints, and which high budget animation like 0083, Char's Counterattack, Unicorn and F91 will usually spend a few scenes showing off maneuvering with lots of thrust. The average number of verniers on suits dropped post F91 not because of AMBAC, but because mobile suits started using different systems like beam rotors or Minovsky engines to supplement the unit's maneuverability and replace the need for verniers or thrusters to some degree. Tomino does describe something similar in his Mobile Suit Gundam novels, but it's not about fuel efficiency, it's about efficiency of movement i.e. minimizing the amount of movement needed to do something. Amuro moves the Gundam like a human body, using slight movements of the feet, hips etc. to correct for thrust and swings of the arms and legs that stop the unit moving so wildly in a way that basically no-one else had or could going by the reactions of deck crew to it. What it mostly seems to aid isn't minimizing the use of fuel as such, but in facilitating melee attacks; same as limbs in general within UC and Gundam as a whole. Thrusters are almost certainly still faster, because thrusters are used regularly to re-orient in order to evade fire and so on. You can't melee with a Core Fighter or other jet like object, but then, you generally don't need to in one of them anyway and Sayla shows that a good pilot can be loving devastating in one regardless of the stigma against fighter units once mobile suits had debuted.
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Nov 7, 2022 13:22
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The logic I always took was that mobile suits were A able to do much more effective thrust vector maneuvering because of the foot boosters and B could fight inside a colony structure much better than a space fighter, both of which gave them a significant advantage during the early stages of the war.
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Nov 7, 2022 16:07
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I think the most important thing is that they're more size-efficient thanks to AMBAC. So a mobile suit can't outmanoeuvre a traditional space-fighter, but it can attain approximately equivalent mobility while being much bigger, tougher and better-armed.
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Nov 7, 2022 16:13
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:The logic I always took was that mobile suits were A able to do much more effective thrust vector maneuvering because of the foot boosters and B could fight inside a colony structure much better than a space fighter, both of which gave them a significant advantage during the early stages of the war. I don't know that there was ever significant amounts of fighting inside a colony in any war during the entirety of Gundam as a franchise. Around them, certainly, but I don't think inter-colony fighting was ever much of a concern. It happened a few times during Zeta and ZZ, but it didn't ever seem to be a major thing there. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 16:22
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tsob posted:This is only really a thing in data books, and some of the manga to be honest. It never comes up in UC animations as such. The only time the concept of AMBAC is talked about in any UC animation at all to my knowledge is one line in the first Mobile Suit Gundam movie, but it's a technician saying that the AMBAC system is ready for drop to Char when he's getting ready to launch in his Zaku II on Earth; which already makes it different to how AMBAC is described in those technical books. 
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Nov 7, 2022 19:02
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Even if colony fighting was limited it did still happen. In terms of tactics Mobile suits are a cross between a fighter jet and a fast attack tank, just like the G-Fighter but with the added advantage of melee
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Nov 7, 2022 19:07
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Mecha posted:IIRC in 0083 after they've moved to space, Kou takes off in the GP01 without waiting for the environmental adjustments and is wobbling all over the place for the fight. Some Zeon mook sneers "your auto-balancer isn't working, huh" but then Kou nails him with a lucky shot so I'm not sure what that scene was supposed to be saying. I'd assume it's what helps regulate the unit's position to keep it stable in a given environment, akin to the bones in the ear that regulate it for humans. There's a balancer mentioned in ZZ once too, if I recall. In the case of the GP-01, the problem with it's maneuverability in space was explicitly fixed by bolting two huge rear end thrusters with additional verniers on them to the rear; so it definitely wasn't just about balancing the mass to move better. The GP-01 thing is even worse though, because Kou is convinced he, an amateur enthusiast, can math out the internal coding to ensure the GP-01 works fine in space even after a professional designer tells him it can't be done. He's such a loving moron  War and Pieces posted:Even if colony fighting was limited it did still happen. In terms of tactics Mobile suits are a cross between a fighter jet and a fast attack tank, just like the G-Fighter but with the added advantage of melee Oh it definitely happened; I just don't think it was ever really a selling point of mobile suits as a platform because it was relatively rare. It's more a holdover of their original purpose than an indication of their military purpose, I'd think, since mobile suits are descended from worker units created to build the colonies in the first place. I imagine it'd be hell to pilot a jet inside one though, even just on speed alone and without considering how the lack of atmospheric gravity would affect a fighter. A colony is only 8km in diameter and 36km long, so if a fighter was travelling at 1,000km (which is pretty average for modern jets from what I can see) it'd still be doing roughly 16.5km/minute and gun from one end to the other in about 2 minutes. It'd be worse across the center, since it'd cross that space in less than 30 seconds. You would have to be constantly aware of the walls just to prevent yourself splatting off them. Doing that in a fight can not be a fun prospect. tsob fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 20:01
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I think any aircraft in colonies would have to be very leisurely ultralights or balloons because otherwise lol. I wonder if there'd be significant impact with taller buildings? I guess on that scale it might be perceptible at some point but it wouldn't be drastic if you weren't like, Burj Khalifa sized.
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Nov 7, 2022 21:06
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This is the era of autogyro combat
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Nov 7, 2022 23:07
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tsob posted:I don't know that there was ever significant amounts of fighting inside a colony in any war during the entirety of Gundam as a franchise. Around them, certainly, but I don't think inter-colony fighting was ever much of a concern. It happened a few times during Zeta and ZZ, but it didn't ever seem to be a major thing there. I don't know. It might not be a full scale war, but it could be some kind of significant conflict on a smaller scale. Like it was held in a jacket or something. A war, metaphorically, in a pouch of some kind attached to an item of clothing. But when could that have been?
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Nov 7, 2022 23:15
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war in the gusset
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Nov 7, 2022 23:19
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chiasaur11 posted:I don't know. It might not be a full scale war, but it could be some kind of significant conflict on a smaller scale. Like it was held in a jacket or something. A war, metaphorically, in a pouch of some kind attached to an item of clothing. I would never call the fighiting in 0080 significant on any scale beyond personal, as in it was emotionally affecting to the people involved. On the other hand, it was really just 2 fights overall, one with 1 Zeon suit against a garrison that was almost immediately wiped out due to surprise, leaving one suit to fight back, and another fight that was two suits basically dueling. Very small scale by design, since it wanted to tell a more personal story. You could probably even fit it in your pocket. The very first fight of the original show takes place in a colony and Amuro fought Char and M'Quve in the Texas Colony in 0079 too, there's a couple of battles against the Crossbone Vanguard in F91, Uso does a little bit of fighting inside colonies in Victory and the Kshatriya fight in the first episode of Unicorn takes place inside a colony too. As does Full Frontal's showing off of the Neo Zeong by destroying a Silver Bullet. There were some battles in colonies spread around, but Zeta and ZZ were the ones that it happened in most often, and even then it tended to be a handful of suits that left the cylinder to fight in space a good chunk of the time. If I was going to pick one to highlight in retrospect it'd probably be F91, if only because fighting inside a colony made up a relatively large amount of the film's runtime.
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Nov 7, 2022 23:41
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AMBAC makes zero sense if you actually start thinking about it for more than a minute. Just gotta let it slide cause Robomen are cool
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Nov 8, 2022 00:51
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AMBAC does add to the difficulty of the GP01's situation without the proper space calibrations, plus the general lack of maneuvering thrusters due to it being ground specialized. The software won't compensate for how moving your arm to aim can throw your aim off, etc. But as a "and that's why limbs are better" reason, it's kinda flimsy.
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Nov 8, 2022 01:03
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Gaius Marius posted:AMBAC makes zero sense if you actually start thinking about it for more than a minute. Just gotta let it slide cause Robomen are cool Wait, you mean you don't see the terrifying military applications inherent in this movement?  Meanwhile, reaction wheels are just chillin'  Nothing upsets them.
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Nov 8, 2022 01:40
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https://twitter.com/MayB_Art/status/1589522595069988864?s=20&t=_y4trrwjzgeox6x-oLLEaw I don't think I've ever seen it rendered "Hi-Storymer" before
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Nov 8, 2022 04:52
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It's a clue that they've cast Peter Stor(y)mer as Amuro in the Hollywood adaption 
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Nov 8, 2022 05:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SBAyLIbGf4
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Nov 9, 2022 06:37
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they put the 0083 movie on youtube should i rec it to people
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Nov 10, 2022 05:42
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