|
Mr. Evrart is helping me found my commune.
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 05:09 |
|
|
pedro0930 posted:When you discuss the revolution with Joyce she mentioned that the communists shot a lot of people in the head (I forgot the number, but I think it's in the hundred of thousands, and the Coalition came in and shot millions). I don't know if these head shooting were the result of there being a huge civil war lasting years or the post revolution execution. I suppose there's might be at least some for the latter, as we get a glimpse of the execution site behind the Feld building. quote:YOU - "Did the communists and the anarchists shoot back?" 40 million people died in the Antecentenial revolution, so assuming that Joyce is rounding up everyone who died fighting the Communists and not people being randomly murdered then the Communists and Moralintern are responsible for roughly equal numbers of deaths. e: it's a big bit of the thematic significance of the Tribunal that lots of different factions have been pushing Revachol to a crisis, but the flashpoint itself is actually totally out of everyone's control and none of the power players could stop it even if they wanted.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:45
|
|
|
Eiba posted:It is absolutely fascinating to see (in my opinion correctly) that the Union is better than Wild Pines and then twist everything else into making Evrart and his methods actually good, and Joyce is an irredeemable monster. The institutions may be good and evil, but the people are not so simple. IMO the big question that evrarte poses is "how far are you willing to go?" and that's what makes him such a divisive figure. Is it worth dealing drugs to fund the union? Is it worth sending men to their deaths to fight the mercenaries? Is it worth assassinating a political rival in order to seize power? How you answer these questions is how you judge evrarte.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:46
|
|
|
Okay but what if Joyce is quoting Black Book of Communism numbers?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:48
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Okay but what if Joyce is quoting Black Book of Communism numbers? Joyce is a fairly reliable info-dump on the player, she doesn't lie to you and she's open and self-reflective about her beliefs and biases. e: or to put another way, in addition to Joyce being the mirror of Evrart who is lying to you all the time, she's the embodiment of 'money doesn't lie to itself'. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Nov 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:50
|
|
|
Sardonik posted:I would argue Evrart's greatest sin is less seizing the harbor itself, a cool and good thing to do, but more directly explicitly planning on getting a shitload of his own people killed in the reprisal. I wouldn't consider the latter a forgone conclusion of the former. Evrart recognizes that the price of freedom will be blood. He's not wrong about that. The question is whether that makes him a good or a bad person. I mean you start a war you're going to be piling up bodies. You *should* recognize that going in. Evrart does and he starts the war anyway.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:54
|
|
|
My read on it was that even with Evrart being corrupt and even with several union foot soldiers either having no affinity for union values (Call Me Manyana), or actively hostile to socialism (Measurehead), the union still is a effective vehicle for improving the quality of life for the workers. Playing it got me thinking about how an organization has a function all its own and is not just a average or sum of the moral value of its membership and leadership.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:54
|
|
|
clicked in hoping kurvitz had risen from his vana tallinn bender and published a scathing polemic/post-mortem that alludes to a future for fictions written within the world of disco elysium, got a whose worse joyce or evrart argument instead
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:55
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Evrart recognizes that the price of freedom will be blood. He's not wrong about that. The question is whether that makes him a good or a bad person. E: Evrart didn't help them find some guns Sardonik fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:57
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Evrart recognizes that the price of freedom will be blood. He's not wrong about that. The question is whether that makes him a good or a bad person. Evrart was way ahead of Wild Pines if he’s to be believed - he had already locked up contracts with companies that used Wild Pines for shipping and realized he had a bargaining chip that can’t be pried out of his hands by Wild Pines if he just refused to play ball. I think it’s questionable whether the fake lynching moved the needle at all, and doesn’t represent what the war would or is going to look like. He tried to take advantage of the situation and it arguably failed miserably for him.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 19:59
|
|
|
i am a moron posted:it arguably failed miserably for him. it was a colossal, unambiguous success
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:07
|
|
|
i just bought this game and like it more than i thought i would (i thought it would be too heavy handed and on the nose, but it's pretty fun playing detective). going for a moralist pragmatic character
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:12
|
|
|
By the end of the game everyone knows the dockworkers didn’t hang the merc. He potentially handed the RCM a huge win in his own backyard once all the dust settles, and lost a bunch of the Hardie Boys. The person running his drug operation is either gone or dead. What part of it worked out for him?
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:13
|
|
|
The part where all the mercs are dead and wild pines is leaving.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:14
|
|
|
Wild Pines is pulling up stakes if you tell Joyce what is going on pre tribunal. Has nothing to do with it ultimately. And if the merc hadn’t have been fake lynched Wild Pines likely would’ve recalled their muscle once Joyce realized how far behind Evrart she was
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:15
|
|
|
i am a moron posted:By the end of the game everyone knows the dockworkers didn’t hang the merc. He potentially handed the RCM a huge win in his own backyard once all the dust settles, and lost a bunch of the Hardie Boys. The person running his drug operation is either gone or dead. What part of it worked out for him? no one has a clue about the truth behind the hanging except the RCM, and once Dros’s confession comes out, even if the news makes it to Martinaise, it’ll pale in comparison to fully-decked out Wild Pines contractors gunning people down in broad daylight. the Hardies are expendable schmucks in the Claires’ calculus, and their loss means little compared to the humiliation, ostracization, and surrender of their most significant competition for control of Revachol’s logistics hub Evrart utterly trounced Joyce in their standoff. his victory being greased with the Hardies’ blood is the questionable part, not the fact of his victory
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:17
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:it was a colossal, unambiguous success Albeit mostly because of two cops who decided to most likely die to stop the mercenaries. also there's some risk to Evrart if the sniper has enough moments of lucidity to finger him/Edgar for murder i am a moron posted:By the end of the game everyone knows the dockworkers didn’t hang the merc. He potentially handed the RCM a huge win in his own backyard once all the dust settles, and lost a bunch of the Hardie Boys. The person running his drug operation is either gone or dead. What part of it worked out for him? Wild Pines' grip on the docks is almost certainly broken and as long as he doesn't personally get arrested Evrart doesn't seem to mind the RCM being a thing too much. This goes quadruple for the revolution plot, which in fairness Evrart probably doesn't know about yet. well actually the revolution might annoy him, right now he's sitting pretty with a position that capital can't really assail directly, but if the Coalition airships start shooting that'll change right quick
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:18
|
|
|
My recollection of the last day is that you've basically stalled the crisis point and things are back to uneasy stasis? Freely admit I might have that wrong. e: but yes it's clear things have mostly gone Evrart's way and Wild Pines at-best are scrambling to come up with a plan to unfuck their situation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:19
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Albeit mostly because of two cops who decided to most likely die to stop the mercenaries. the RCM was a triviality from Evrart’s perspective. all they can accomplish is a few less dead Hardies, and he’d written them all off from the beginning the real oopsie in his plan was Lizzie going off and trying to play mediator, because she seems way more valuable to the union than Titus and company
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:20
|
|
|
Jack Trades posted:He doesn't even deny being corrupt when you talk to him about it. He's the good option through the magic of being the only actor *getting poo poo done* for regular people. It is precisely the existence of people such as Joyce, the Sunday Friend, hell even René, that prevent people from getting poo poo done for regular people in a nicer way than Evrart can manage. Those people who try the nice way end up dead. It is because Evrart is effective that the dockworkers can weather the mercenary storm sent upon them. If a less effective person was in charge, they'd get murdered by the mercs, and exploitation as usual would continue and nothing would ever get better for regular people. Thinking Evrart has any responsibility for the mercenaries is insanity. They are the flesh-made tools of capital sent to continue the subjugation of the working class.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:21
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Albeit mostly because of two cops who decided to most likely die to stop the mercenaries. Yea but Joyce realizes they’ve lost before the tribunal even happens. And since Wild Pines wasn’t making any progress anyways I don’t see what the tribunal really impacted as far advancing those plans. Maybe as a distraction but I kinda don’t see what difference it makes when Evrarts big moves all happen off screen Alchenar posted:My recollection of the last day is that you've basically stalled the crisis point and things are back to uneasy stasis? Freely admit I might have that wrong. Yes
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:22
|
|
|
Actually, it occurs to me that Evrart says something like "yeah if they come for the docks I have people personally loyal to me who are more heavily armed". It's possible that getting the Hardie Boys, who are more loyal to the union and Martinaise than to Evrart, mowed down isn't a tragically necessary ploy against Wild Pines, it is itself a feature.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:25
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Joyce's choices aren't dismissable, they're just separate and distinct. Everyone has responsibility and everyone is guilty (including Harry, who pissed away three days he didn't have). You're just going to take the a-priori existence of exploitative labour relations enforced at gunpoint by literal gunboats in the sky, in a setting where the bullet holes and artillery craters from said gunboats are still visible *everywhere* and then claim Evrart *started* it? Unbelievable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:25
|
|
|
If you’re going to go that far with causality, the whole thing is Delores Dei’s fault but Harry already suspected that
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:27
|
|
|
Joyce bails because she lost control of the only players she had left in the drama. Had the mercs won she or another Wild Pines rep would've been back to rebuild the old order that brought all this about. She just didn't have any way of influencing or hearing about anything anymore and knew what was coming next so got out of town before the blood. The mercs represent Wild Pines, with Sunday Friend being the more explicit mouthpiece for the Moralintern because Joyce spent too much time in the pale and unfortunately caught an acute case of existentialism.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
Eiba posted:It is absolutely fascinating to see (in my opinion correctly) that the Union is better than Wild Pines and then twist everything else into making Evrart and his methods actually good, and Joyce is an irredeemable monster. The institutions may be good and evil, but the people are not so simple. I think Evrart absolutely believes that the changes he's trying to make will be better for those people too. However it won't preserve their way of life. They can prosper and benefit from the community center he's going to build but he doesn't care about preserving that specific individual community. Evrart's interesting because the higher your stats are the easier it is to see how much of the sleaziness is a deliberate tactic on his part to throw people off
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
i am a moron posted:If you’re going to go that far with causality, the whole thing is Delores Dei’s fault but Harry already suspected that My dude you think Evrart *politicized* the dead body of a psychotic murdering mercenary sent in explicitly to break their labour action and benefit capital. Like everything was just fine and dandy here, totally nothing political going on, until Evrart decided to make it so. Incredible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:28
|
|
|
I gotta say though, getting real curious what y'all chose when the game forced you to say either something communist or something fascist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:31
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:I think Evrart absolutely believes that the changes he's trying to make will be better for those people too. However it won't preserve their way of life. They can prosper and benefit from the community center he's going to build but he doesn't care about preserving that specific individual community. I think he'll just tell you this outright if you ask. He's not trying to preserve anything because his whole deal is that everything sucks rear end. If you want to preserve things Wild Pines is there waiting to help. The question there imho is whether the youth center is for real or if it's just another play where Evrart gets you to go around and demonstrate that you're working for the union, like how if you want financial assistance from him it means you're carrying an oversized novelty check with A GIFT FROM THE UNION on it right past the strike line.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:31
|
|
|
Orange Devil posted:My dude you think Evrart *politicized* the dead body of a psychotic murdering mercenary sent in explicitly to break their labour action and benefit capital. In a sense, he kind of did, though. Lely's murder really didn't have anything to do with the political situation but Evart went to the trouble of disguising it as an act of explicit political violence. Granted the mercs would have treated it as one regardless and the situation was fraught enough that any spark would be enough to set if off.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:32
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:I think he'll just tell you this outright if you ask. He's not trying to preserve anything because his whole deal is that everything sucks rear end. If you want to preserve things Wild Pines is there waiting to help. The question there imho is whether the youth center is for real or if it's just another play where Evrart gets you to go around and demonstrate that you're working for the union, like how if you want financial assistance from him it means you're carrying an oversized novelty check with A GIFT FROM THE UNION on it right past the strike line. TBH I think it's both. The youth center is for real, but part of his whole deal is doing it in the sleaziest and most suspicious way possible because that's part of his whole act.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:33
|
|
|
christmas boots posted:In a sense, he kind of did, though. Lely's murder really didn't have anything to do with the political situation but Evart went to the trouble of disguising it as an act of explicit political violence. ... The presence of the mercenaries, hell even their existence, is political as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:39
|
|
|
A truism to keep in mind is: "Everyone does politics. If you aren't, someone else is doing politics to you."
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:43
|
|
|
So what positive things have Claires actually done that don't include fixing problems that they themselves have caused?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:48
|
|
|
Regardless of whatever Evrart "started" he's the one who decided the Hardies were more valuable to the Union as dead martyrs than living cops. That's a decision he made that he didn't have to make. He may not be responsible for the death squad, or the sociopolitical conditions or the rest of it, but he is still responsible for his part in how it all went down.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:52
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:Actually, it occurs to me that Evrart says something like "yeah if they come for the docks I have people personally loyal to me who are more heavily armed". It's possible that getting the Hardie Boys, who are more loyal to the union and Martinaise than to Evrart, mowed down isn't a tragically necessary ploy against Wild Pines, it is itself a feature. If you press Evrart on how he knows what you've been doing before you come tell him, he tells you his real wetwork team has been watching and also had Joyce bugged. The Hardies are totally disposable thugs who are there to draw everyone attention from the fact that Evrart has his own version of Wild Pines Mercs. Evrart doesn't sneer at Wild Pinces for hiring a bunch of racist murdering thugs, he sneers at them for the mistake of hiring foreign racist murdering thugs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:52
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:Evrart doesn't sneer at Wild Pinces for hiring a bunch of racist murdering thugs, he sneers at them for the mistake of hiring foreign racist murdering thugs. huge leap of logic here a lot of your posts re: the union seem to gyrate around “gosh, but he’s just so mean”
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:55
|
|
|
Eiba posted:Regardless of whatever Evrart "started" he's the one who decided the Hardies were more valuable to the Union as dead martyrs than living cops. That's a decision he made that he didn't have to make. The Hardies are explicitly a militia formed to ensure the monopoly on violence that is what defines a regional power does not get ripped out from under his heels, they tell you themselves they exist because of the surplus created by the dockworkers and that that is their role in addition to community work. The mercs aren't there because the Hardies exist and their stated goal at the big moment is to kill everybody they can find starting with all present. What other way should he have acted if he has the provably correct belief that a violent confrontation is just days or hours away? Have them die in their role as militia and then call them idiots? Order them to find a hole to hide in while everybody is killed?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:58
|
|
|
The game is explicit that Evrart is fine with having racists act as muscle for him, he's also fine with murdering/disappearing anyone who gets in his way. He's not morally outraged by the mercs at all because he knows he's perfectly happy to use similar tools, he's gleeful that Wild Pines have made a tactical error in their choice of agents that he can exploit. e: ^^ the mercs are there for the Hardies because the Hardies have been announcing to the world that they committed the murder.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 20:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 05:09 |
|
|
And the mercs are only threatening to kill everyone because Evrart made it look like the union did it
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 21:00
|
|