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Pook Good Mook posted:Fair to point out that a big reason Germany changed so much was because its enemies killed and jailed everyone responsible for the crimes. That just won't happen with Russia.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:12
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uXs posted:Circumstances change. Do you think nothing would happen if Russia shot down a civilian airliner today? Iran shot down an airline recently, right after attacking a US army base. Nothing significant happened.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:12
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evil_bunnY posted:LOL they absolutely did not. They rubber-stamped MANY denazifications because they needed a competent buffer west of the USSR. Also everyone responsible would be like a quarter of the country..
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Nov 15, 2022 21:13
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https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1592609073090138113
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Nov 15, 2022 21:14
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Youth Decay posted:Does it make a difference if the Russian missile flying over NATO airspace was caught by air defense, fell and killed 2 people vs the missile actually detonating and hitting the people? I don't think so, it wasn't aimed at Polish territory in any case. It failed for whatever reason and landed there - if Russia can't guarantee their munitions don't land in NATO territory accidentally then the response is the same (whatever that may be)
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Nov 15, 2022 21:14
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Youth Decay posted:Does it make a difference if the Russian missile flying over NATO airspace was caught by air defense, fell and killed 2 people vs the missile actually detonating and hitting the people? Probably not, unless it is somehow possible for an air-defence missile to cause the Russian missile to alter it's original path. I have no idea if that's how these things work.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:16
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Chalks posted:I don't think so, it wasn't aimed at Polish territory in any case. It failed for whatever reason and landed there - if Russia can't guarantee their munitions don't land in NATO territory accidentally then the response is the same (whatever that may be) Do we know for sure it wasn't aimed at Polish territory? I know we're operating under the assumption that Russia isn't that stupid but is there any way to tell?
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Nov 15, 2022 21:16
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Cooler heads will prevail https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1592603091274149888?s=20&t=WbGHdrdAQcDeqF78iJrUyw
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Nov 15, 2022 21:17
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Isn't Zelenskyy and the rest of the current Ukrainian administration insistent on liberating everything including post 2014 borders?
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Nov 15, 2022 21:17
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Youth Decay posted:Do we know for sure it wasn't aimed at Polish territory? I know we're operating under the assumption that Russia isn't that stupid but is there any way to tell? It's bumfuck in the middle of nowhere.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:18
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Isn't Zelenskyy and the rest of the current Ukrainian administration insistent on liberating everything including post 2014 borders? So is anyone with any speck of decency?
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Nov 15, 2022 21:19
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Despite everyone already knowing Russia shot down MH17 it took over a year of investigations to prove it in an official report by by the Dutch Safety Board. I don't think anyone is going to do anything at least not in the immediate time frame.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:19
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Pook Good Mook posted:Fair to point out that a big reason Germany changed so much was because its enemies killed and jailed everyone responsible for the crimes. That just won't happen with Russia. That is hilariously off base. The entire judiciary and security apparatus was kept full of Nazis, prominent Nazis got their Persilschein and were either recruited by the allies or put back to work. There was no actual reckoning until decades after.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:21
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Isn't Zelenskyy and the rest of the current Ukrainian administration insistent on liberating everything including post 2014 borders? 1991 borders
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Nov 15, 2022 21:21
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TheRat posted:Iran shot down an airline recently, right after attacking a US army base. Nothing significant happened. It was also one of their own jets over their own territory and there were no Americans onboard.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:23
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Antigravitas posted:That is hilariously off base. The entire judiciary and security apparatus was kept full of Nazis, prominent Nazis got their Persilschein and were either recruited by the allies or put back to work. This is fair and I was imprecise. My point was that leadership was beheaded and that there were outside forces that mandated a certain path forward and (perhaps most importantly) funded the transition. Putin, Shoigu, Lavrov, etc, aren't going anywhere voluntarily. Pook Good Mook fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Nov 15, 2022 |
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Nov 15, 2022 21:24
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Ikasuhito posted:It was also one of their own jets over their own territory and there were no Americans onboard. I think they mean the Ukrainian jetliner shot down over Iran
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Nov 15, 2022 21:24
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Ikasuhito posted:It was also one of their own jets over their own territory and there were no Americans onboard. It was a Ukrainian jet lmao.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:25
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Ikasuhito posted:It was also one of their own jets over their own territory and there were no Americans onboard. A large amount of Canadians though. E: And yeah, it was Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752
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Nov 15, 2022 21:25
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Germany was definitely helped by people aging out. My grandfather has been through the occupation as a young kid (and remembers loving around with the local Hitlerjugend), and while his opinions on Germany and Germans mellowed out over time, I would never call it accepting.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:26
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Antigravitas posted:That is hilariously off base. The entire judiciary and security apparatus was kept full of Nazis, prominent Nazis got their Persilschein and were either recruited by the allies or put back to work. yeah, and the occupiers in iraq tried a different method where every ba'athist was fired, and it lead to a much worse situation, eg. isis was created by former ba'athists unfortunately dictatorships can't be fixed overnight
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Nov 15, 2022 21:26
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RT head still going off on Twitter https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1592614508442578945?s=20&t=2wsFRB42QSfTc5zR7jSRTA Note that Hungary and Moldova are also having emergency meetings - their own power infrastructure was affected by the strikes in Ukraine Powerstation near pipeline that services Hungary was hit https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1592601959965822977?s=20&t=DkHBCnDOt58m5DfN4CkIUw https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1592609947552215040?s=20&t=DkHBCnDOt58m5DfN4CkIUw Moldova experiencing power outages https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592568126285438980?s=20&t=DkHBCnDOt58m5DfN4CkIUw So this spillover into Poland isn't the only collateral damage from today KitConstantine fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Nov 15, 2022 |
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Nov 15, 2022 21:32
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KitConstantine posted:
I saw a mention on reddit that it wasn't the pipeline itself, but a powerstation nearby - hitting that shut the gasflow. EDIT: I guess that's mentioned in the twit itself, nevermind.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:34
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Youth Decay posted:Do we know for sure it wasn't aimed at Polish territory? I know we're operating under the assumption that Russia isn't that stupid but is there any way to tell? It’s up to you to provide evidence to insane fiction, not for us to disprove it.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:35
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mmkay posted:I saw a mention on reddit that it wasn't the pipeline itself, but a powerstation nearby - hitting that shut the gasflow. I fixed it anyway. Better to be accurate!
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Nov 15, 2022 21:36
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https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1592616005851054080?s=46&t=QKeNNnrrNoCDj0kcWOiNQQ Looks like the object on the Ukrainian side is not a water treatment plant, but a thermal power plant, which would be more like the other energy-related targets Russia is going after.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:37
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cinci zoo sniper posted:It’s up to you to provide evidence to insane fiction, not for us to disprove it. I swear I'm not trying to do Clancychat, I guess I'm just asking if there's a way to tell which direction a missile (any missile) was going/what its aim was after it's been shot down.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:39
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Nenonen posted:I feel like there's some practical issues with shooting into someone else's airspace. It would require an integration of Ukrainian and NATO missile defenses lest NATO fires missiles into Ukrainian airspace which then get shot down by Ukrainian missiles, or worse, NATO missile brings down a Ukrainian MiG. It might be more effective to just give more missile defense assets to Ukraine. Oh, well. I guess we'll just need to integrate Ukraine into NATO. For Poland's protection. I guess Russia should have thought of that. NATO should absolutely put up active air and missile defenses across the Polish and Romanian borders with Ukraine if either country requests it, and then shoot down anything that could so much as drop a loose screw on their land. Pook Good Mook posted:Fair to point out that a big reason Germany changed so much was because its enemies killed and jailed everyone responsible for the crimes. That just won't happen with Russia. Yeah, people forget that the solution to fascism was hanging a bunch of fascists after leveling their countries. It's unpleasant to dwell on. (No, we didn't kill all of them, but evidence suggests we killed enough to keep the peace for a few generations.) Youth Decay posted:Does it make a difference if the Russian missile flying over NATO airspace was caught by air defense, fell and killed 2 people vs the missile actually detonating and hitting the people? If a robber shoots at their victim, misses and hits someone else, they're guilty of shooting that person.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:39
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I am curious about the distance between the X and the power plant, any chance it's an even multiple of arcseconds or something?
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Nov 15, 2022 21:40
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Youth Decay posted:I swear I'm not trying to do Clancychat, I guess I'm just asking if there's a way to tell which direction a missile (any missile) was going/what its aim was after it's been shot down. Based on the crater alone, not always - especially if it took a grazing AD hit and was sent flailing. If it has some kind of flight recorder that can survive the impact (why would there be one) or if a radar tracked its flight (why wouldn’t there be one) then sure.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:43
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Youth Decay posted:Do we know for sure it wasn't aimed at Polish territory? I know we're operating under the assumption that Russia isn't that stupid but is there any way to tell? From the images, it looks like it hit a tractor in the middle of a field. It missed what ever it was aiming at so there's no reason to think that target was anywhere besides Ukraine.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:47
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Xarn posted:Germany was definitely helped by people aging out. My grandfather has been through the occupation as a young kid (and remembers loving around with the local Hitlerjugend), and while his opinions on Germany and Germans mellowed out over time, I would never call it accepting. There is certainly some resentment left in Poland.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:47
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OddObserver posted:I am curious about the distance between the X and the power plant, any chance it's an even multiple of arcseconds or something? Here ya go  I got the coordinates of the plant from a list of coordinates of Thermal power plants in Ukraine -https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-knowledge/list-of-thermal-power-stations-in-ukraine-1368425920-1
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Nov 15, 2022 21:48
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OddObserver posted:I am curious about the distance between the X and the power plant, any chance it's an even multiple of arcseconds or something? Just checked and it seems that image is overestimating the distance - the Dobrotvir TPP is outside of L’viv, putting it around
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Nov 15, 2022 21:49
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Chalks posted:From the images, it looks like it hit a tractor in the middle of a field. It missed what ever it was aiming at so there's no reason to think that target was anywhere besides Ukraine. If it’s actually two missiles as is being reported by some outlets, I find it highly dubious this was anything other than an intentional direct escalation of the Russian government aimed at seeing how far they can actually push NATO.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:49
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Ynglaur posted:Oh, well. I guess we'll just need to integrate Ukraine into NATO. For Poland's protection. I guess Russia should have thought of that. So what if the police goes after the robber and hits the civilian instead? Is that the robbers fault?
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Nov 15, 2022 21:51
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Kuleba is lobbying for F-15s and F-16s. https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1592615651344265216
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Nov 15, 2022 21:53
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ZombieLenin posted:If it’s actually two missiles as is being reported by some outlets, I find it highly dubious this was anything other than an intentional direct escalation of the Russian government aimed at seeing how far they can actually push NATO. They've already pushed NATO too far though, I don't see how this makes sense. Like, 12 months ago, sure, they were saying "lets see how much we can get away with!!" but then they very much did not get away with that poo poo. Now is not the time to gamble on even more support for Ukraine with zero upside. cant cook creole bream posted:So what if the police goes after the robber and hits the civilian instead? Is that the robbers fault? If this was an AD missile fired by Ukraine it's a very different situation. Chalks fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Nov 15, 2022 |
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Nov 15, 2022 21:54
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Chalks posted:They've already pushed NATO too far though, I don't see how this makes sense. Like, 12 months ago, sure, they were saying "lets see how much we can get away with!!" but then they very much did not get away with that poo poo. Now is not the time to gamble on even more support for Ukraine with zero upside. I don't think Putin is literally crazy, but it sure seems like he's got nothing but kiss-rear end types working for him, and everyone is lying up and down the chain of command to cover their own asses after each new botched op. It's not an environment that produces good strategic decisions.
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Nov 15, 2022 21:58
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Shes Not Impressed posted:Cooler heads will prevail "Poland started WW2 because it didn't roll over for Hitler" is one hell of a hot take. Is that remotely common in Russian popular history or was this take specifically created for current events? KitConstantine posted:Note that Hungary and Moldova are also having emergency meetings - their own power infrastructure was affected by the strikes in Ukraine I wonder if this is going to have any effects on Orban's stance on Putin. cant cook creole bream posted:So what if the police goes after the robber and hits the civilian instead? Is that the robbers fault? I am not a lawyer, but I think in the US it might actually be legally chalked up as the robber's fault (in part), yes, on the basis that "the robber created the situation in which one might have reasonably predicted this happening." Doesn't mean the police officer gets off scot-free, just that the robber gets part of the blame for that on top of everything else he's blamed for.
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