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Moon Slayer posted:Unrelated to everything else, but finally some good news for Mariupol! Is this like a really twisted version of USSR Hero City status? Gross.
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Nov 16, 2022 02:10
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Moon Slayer posted:Unrelated to everything else, but finally some good news for Mariupol! Wait, uh...freedom from who, exactly? The defenders of what? Are they referring to WW2-era events, or are they celebrating the few Russian collaborators there were, or are they actually shameless enough to be praising the city for their boundless courage in defending against their own invasion?
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Nov 16, 2022 02:24
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Is this a message they scheduled months ago and forgot to cancel?
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Nov 16, 2022 02:30
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Tomn posted:Wait, uh...freedom from who, exactly? The defenders of what? Are they referring to WW2-era events, or are they celebrating the few Russian collaborators there were, or are they actually shameless enough to be praising the city for their boundless courage in defending against their own invasion? Steadfast defence against the horror of Avoz probably.
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Nov 16, 2022 02:30
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Eric Cantonese posted:Is this like a really twisted version of USSR Hero City status? Gross. Not quite. So, there are 13 hero-cities - 4 from 1945, 3 from 60s, 4 from 70s, and 2 from 80s. One of these is a hero-fortress, akshualli, but anyway, you could argue that the title simultaneously did mean something, and was also already given out left and right after the first 4 - definitely after the first 7. One distinction to know here anyway is that until 80s this status legally was “an honourable nickname” (почётное звание), whereas in 80s it got upgraded to “mark of the highest excellence” (высшая степень отличия). The difference between the two is like between a generic state award and the highest possible one. Think “Idaho national guard potato peeling champion MMXVI” vs “the Medal of Honour recipient”. But the criteria for assignment remained the same on a statutory level - cities whose workers showed exception heroism in WW2. Simultaneously, there’s a 2006 “nickname” award “city of military glory”. This one is not for WW2, but for generic “heroism shown by defenders of the city in fight for freedom and independence of the Fatherland”. The way it was assigned, except the first couple, like Kursk, to me seems to be kind of random, so I assume those were various electoral/political bribes. The 13 above have remained in their elevated status, in terms of power rankings of honourifics Russian cities may be eligible for. In 2015, for the 70th anniversary of the end of WW2, all 13* of them received giant golden swords, commemorating peace.  And that brings us to this year. As of the start of it, there were 45 cities of military glory. In June, all of the received the exact same swords. With Mariupol’ and Melitopol’ both receiving this status yesterday, I believe they are, in fact, well on their way towards twisting the hero-city status. That said, fetishisation of WW2 is deeply ingrained in the popular culture of Russia, and I don’t think they’re going to quite kick the can open by simply equating the two, or merging one into another. *Kyiv and Odessa had the swords made for them, but not sent, for obvious reasons, and the chair of the parliament at the time said that “there will surely come time when we’ll be able to deliver these swords to the Ukrainian hero-cities”. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Nov 16, 2022 |
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Nov 16, 2022 02:43
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My worthless prediction is that the most that will happen is that NATO will be basing more SAM batteries in Eastern Poland that might accidentally shoot down Russian missiles in Western Ukraine, and also NATO giving Ukraine more fancy gizmos.
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Nov 16, 2022 02:46
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War in Ukraine: giant golden swords, commemorating peace.
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Nov 16, 2022 02:49
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Tomn posted:Wait, uh...freedom from who, exactly? The defenders of what? Are they referring to WW2-era events, or are they celebrating the few Russian collaborators there were, or are they actually shameless enough to be praising the city for their boundless courage in defending against their own invasion? This is mostly a lost-in-translation thing. “Freedom” here should be interpreted as “liberty”, and “defenders” is a 3rd grade syntactical kung fu to build a message that Russia is not a land of “warriors” (who could wage “wars”), but a land of “defenders” (who can only “protect” their own).
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Nov 16, 2022 02:49
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Discendo Vox posted:War in Ukraine: giant golden swords, commemorating peace. I’m just trying to avoid attracting the attention of the astrology thread, because the whole sword affair has various gemstones engraved, with different meanings assigned to them. Blue topazs of peace, etcetera. There’s also bunch of other ornamentation. For instance, a phrase by Alexander Nevsky, a famous Slavic prince of 13th century: “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”.
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Nov 16, 2022 02:58
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The actual quote is just slightly different, but that would’ve detracted from the comedy effect. “Whoever will come to us with a sword, from a sword will perish“.
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Nov 16, 2022 02:59
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cinci zoo sniper posted:The actual quote is just slightly different, but that would’ve detracted from the comedy effect. “Whoever will come to us with a sword, from a sword will perish“. Sounds like an excellent opportunity for beating gold & topaz swords into gold & topaz plowshares.
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Nov 16, 2022 03:09
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I mean the weird thing about all this is that I feel like Ukraine would be more than happy to declare Mariupol a Ukrainian Hero City or similar, all things considered. God knows they've deserved it. To have Russia come swooping in to give them the label for their own deeply cynical purposes is kind of a weird case of whiplash.
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Nov 16, 2022 03:14
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Tomn posted:I mean the weird thing about all this is that I feel like Ukraine would be more than happy to declare Mariupol a Ukrainian Hero City or similar, all things considered. God knows they've deserved it. To have Russia come swooping in to give them the label for their own deeply cynical purposes is kind of a weird case of whiplash. They already did! quote:In addition to renewing the status of Kyiv, Odesa, Sevastopol and Kerch, decree 111 also awarded the title to the cities of Chernihiv, Hostomel, Kharkiv, Kherson, Mariupol and Volnovakha. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_City_of_Ukraine I agree that this is a bizarre move from Russia though, especially with the way it's worded.
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Nov 16, 2022 03:45
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Tomn posted:Wait, uh...freedom from who, exactly? Freedom from intactness and/or lack of warcrimes
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Nov 16, 2022 03:49
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It looks like the US doesn't think the missiles that hit Poland came from Russia https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-11-15-22/index.html
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Nov 16, 2022 04:02
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Charliegrs posted:It looks like the US doesn't think the missiles that hit Poland came from Russia The full statement is vague in a rather technical sense quote:Speaking to reporters after meeting with other world leaders in Bali, Indonesia, the president was asked if it was too early to say whether the projectile was fired from Russia.
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Nov 16, 2022 04:04
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cinci zoo sniper posted:The full statement is vague in a rather technical sense I mean technically they could have been fired from Belarus, though I imagine he wouldn't bother with this distinction unless they believed it was the military of Belarus firing them, but that would be bizarre and extreme. So sounds like it was most likely an accident with Ukrainian AA missiles then. If they are S-300's, even more reason to give them more western AA. Not that any system is perfect.
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Nov 16, 2022 04:11
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Interesting quote here -- hard to parse the possible implications. quote:Biden ‘unlikely’ missile that hit Poland fired from Russia https://apnews.com/article/g-20-summit-nato-biden-andrzej-duda-25e615909ba0d871d5092f5b3aec21c8
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Nov 16, 2022 04:18
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Orthanc6 posted:I mean technically they could have been fired from Belarus, though I imagine he wouldn't bother with this distinction unless they believed it was the military of Belarus firing them, but that would be bizarre and extreme. Since he’s not a Twitter pundit, I think he would in fact make a distinction between Russia and Belarus. That said, this gives us about as much information as a single questionably attributed photo that Twitter is arguing over, especially as it’s “preliminary information” that merely “contests” an hypothetical explanation. Only time will tell, be it what the Polish government chooses to say or not to say. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Nov 16, 2022 |
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Nov 16, 2022 04:20
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Orthanc6 posted:I mean technically they could have been fired from Belarus, though I imagine he wouldn't bother with this distinction unless they believed it was the military of Belarus firing them, but that would be bizarre and extreme. AA systems are complex machines no matter who makes it. Take this example of a Patriot missile malfunction. This was in Saudi Arabia when the Houthis were firing ballistic missiles at them https://youtu.be/YS4i2InVB-Y
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Nov 16, 2022 04:58
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Zelensky doesn't seem to think that the attack on Poland were just some missiles that missed their target and Russia was deliberately targeting it https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1592617861327228929 Is there any information that supports this, because Biden is saying he doesn't believe the missiles were fired from Russia
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Nov 16, 2022 05:10
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Willo567 posted:Zelensky doesn't seem to think that the attack on Poland were just some missiles that missed their target and Russia was deliberately targeting it Zelenskyy is always cheerleading for more involvement from NATO.
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Nov 16, 2022 05:16
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Just because the missiles weren’t fired from Russia doesn’t mean they were fired by Russia. It is pretty obvious that Biden is going to try and do everything he can from escalating the conflict by involving NATO and in turn having any possibility of boots on the ground. They are going to have to thread this very carefully as I don’t see any way that you don’t escalate things more. Hell this entire exercise may have been Russia trying to get NATO to officially get involved so they can lose and save face doing it. Big bad NATO defeated them not those lowly Ukrainians. Granted I think it is more likely that Russian missiles being used have dogshit for guidance and they have bad intel to be firing at in the first place.
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Nov 16, 2022 05:29
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Cinci, that was a top tier post on city titles. Good info.
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Nov 16, 2022 05:44
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Unless you can prove or there is a compelling reason to believe it was a deliberate action there's not going to be any NATO involvement in the sense of a declaration of war or forces deployed to Ukraine. We didn't do anything the other times Russia killed people or blew things up in NATO countries. Our governments accept that Russia will do that on occasion. Right now it appears it's wayward AA or maybe a damaged Russian missile. Russia deliberately deciding to blow up a random farmhouse makes no sense but a lot of their targetting choices make no sense nor did blowing up Nordstream. I would argue that it was most likely an accident regardless of who fired the missiles but given past Russian behavior it certainly can't be ruled out it was deliberate choice to send a message or some incomprehensible 5th dimension Kremlinology chess.
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Nov 16, 2022 05:54
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https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592733434182787073 So they know exactly what it's all about. They're just crafting an appropriate response.
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Nov 16, 2022 05:56
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I think you’d have to get pretty deep into Clancychat territory to come up with a scenario where NATO decides it’s had enough and conducts direct strikes against Russia. NATO will issue angry statements, increase military readiness, etc. but that’ll be it. Deteriorata posted:https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592733434182787073
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Nov 16, 2022 06:03
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"used the latitude of a target in Kyiv, and the longitude of one in Lviv" is a theory that sounds dumb enough to be what russia really did
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Nov 16, 2022 06:15
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https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1592745092112347136?s=46&t=ARysUQm7zmqgkw8ShtUJEg
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Nov 16, 2022 06:16
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mlmp08 posted:https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1592745092112347136?s=46&t=ARysUQm7zmqgkw8ShtUJEg This is the best possible news.
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Nov 16, 2022 06:25
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Willo567 posted:Zelensky doesn't seem to think that the attack on Poland were just some missiles that missed their target and Russia was deliberately targeting it. Yeah, that is just really dumb. Deliberately targeting two farmers in eastern Poland. It might worsen the war, but goddamn, Russia needed to get rid of these particular people at all costs. If it was the intention to hit Poland, it would have landed at a more crucial place. Sorry, to those farmers, but in a global scale their deaths are a bit insignificant.
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Nov 16, 2022 06:35
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MikeC posted:This is the best possible news. Yup. And the deaths can still be blamed on Russia. Ukraine will apologize and pay compensation, the families will mourn their dead, and maybe NATO steps up its air defense support. A win for literally everyone except for the two poor SOBs who were killed. And the Russians, because gently caress those guys.
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Nov 16, 2022 06:52
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MikeC posted:This is the best possible news. Now NATO can send peacekeepers to Ukraine! 
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Nov 16, 2022 06:58
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Reminder that in March a six ton Soviet era drone hit Zagreb (Croatia, a thousand km away) launched by Ukrainian forces. It doesn't surprise me at all that they hit Poland by mistake.
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Nov 16, 2022 08:19
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The big NATO meeting way back in Octobor pledged to increase protection and defence of Ukrainian infrastructure, was there ever any details on how they would go about that? One would think that beefing up Ukrainian IADS would be relatively easy politically well as a great way to test capabalities against Russian systems. At this point in the conflict it seems these mass missile strikes are the only way for Russia to lash out and feel good about themselves.
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Nov 16, 2022 08:31
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Staluigi posted:"used the latitude of a target in Kyiv, and the longitude of one in Lviv" is a theory that sounds dumb enough to be what russia really did there's a whole bunch of far simpler explanations that don't involve a short-medium range missile ending up farther off course than it's range would allow mlmp08 posted:https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1592745092112347136?s=46&t=ARysUQm7zmqgkw8ShtUJEg all things considered that is extremely relieving to hear
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Nov 16, 2022 08:50
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It’s good to hear Russia is not yet stupid and/or incompetent enough to hit NATO countries. Still incredibly sad for the 2 Polish farmers though.
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Nov 16, 2022 08:55
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mlmp08 posted:https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1592745092112347136?s=46&t=ARysUQm7zmqgkw8ShtUJEg 2 people dead still is a disaster, but this is the lowest drama scenario that we could get out of this. Better news, for most of us, than what it looked like yesterday, loosely targeted air strikes being called near NATO border.
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Nov 16, 2022 09:43
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If it was a Ukrainian SAM it's not even clear that it would be due to Russia firing missiles near Poland at all. When these missiles go wrong they can fly a very long way from their target https://twitter.com/Aviation_Intel/status/1592641701365317632
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Nov 16, 2022 10:50
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Our probably best outlet is still at "Russian missile struck in Poland, 2 dead". I wonder when will they update the article.Rigel posted:From an American context, the only thing insane about this is that the Homeowner unnecessarily chased after the getaway driver trying to kill them after they fled. He is very lucky that he was unsuccessful because that would have been a crime even here and I suspect could have been charged with attempted murder. (shooting the guy who was trying to run back to the car might be controversial depending on the state) Actually that all sounds completely loving insane.
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Nov 16, 2022 10:54
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