|
Neddy Seagoon posted:It doesn't look that huge a gap because the safeties are on. Mikazuki vs the Hashmal with the gloves off moving faster than thought reflexively to dodge the tail and limbs is what sets a Gundam apart from a conventional MS's performance. You don't have a point of comparison though. It is possible Mika pulls those moves off in any other high end mobile suite if you get the 'limiter off' effect. That always struck me more as a limiter on AV itself, not the suit. In normal use it feeds you x information, but when faced with a mobile armor it pulls the stopper and uploads enough data that it starts crippling you if you get damaged. The visual for Mika against the graze ein wasn't some massive ramp up in the suit itself, but the av system pushed to its limits. He purged the armor, upped his reaction speed and beat ein that way.
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 05:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 03:51 |
|
|
i'm not sure any robot is shown to be able to make the sudden changes in direction that the gundam was capable of during the hashmal fight, which the AV disproportionately benefits from but would still be useful elsewhere. like, the gundams just seem to have much faster short-term acceleration/burst speed in general for the amount of weight they carry. speaking of, i also don't think many other robots have the kind of big fuckoff weighty weapons the gundams tend to use either. barbatos one-handing that huge loving twohander sword vs hashmal is a level of pure brute force that i think only gets matched by other gundams (mostly gusion tbh). iirc other high end mobile suits use lighter weapons, or have to 2hand what the gundams are apparently capable of just swinging around in a pinch. ein's axes come close but the ein was a strength-focused robot, pretty sure it was less agile than barbatos in exchange for matching its strength what non-barbatos weapons in the show even come close to the mace? the aforementioned 2hander sword (that the original robot seems to just use as a lance - you point and then use the robot's back thrusters to move it) and ein's axes are the only non-gundam examples i can think of ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Nov 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 06:54
|
|
|
Gusions hammer and the rebake's giant pliers spring to mind but as you did they're still gundam frames.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 07:02
|
|
|
Caros posted:You don't have a point of comparison though. It is possible Mika pulls those moves off in any other high end mobile suite if you get the 'limiter off' effect. Except if it was that easy, every pirate group would be forcing their literal army of disposable kids to wreak destruction. The whole point, thematically and technologically, is the Gundams are demons. Red-eyed, absurdly fast and strong machines of terror. Seeing the Barbatos fight the Hashmal is the true representation of why the Gundams exist and what they were meant to do. The limiters are even explicitly triggered by the presence of the Mobile Armor to take the safeties off and make the Barbatos do what it was built to do. Nevermind that, as you see in the show, anything less than the performance Mikazuki gave in the Barbatos against that Hashmal would've left him dead a half-dozen times over.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 07:09
|
|
|
Caros posted:You don't have a point of comparison though. It is possible Mika pulls those moves off in any other high end mobile suite if you get the 'limiter off' effect. Characters look into the camera and go "so this is the power that ended the Calamity War" as it's happening. e; he is literally bleeding and rendered partially paralytic because of how powerful Barbatos' throughput is. The show makes this explicit; Gundams have a limiter, and non-Gundam MSes do not. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Nov 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 12:02
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I never got the impression the gap was *that* huge. We're shown plenty of non-twin units being shown as strong/durable/etc as Gundams. The major gap always comes from AV, not the Gundam itself. It's not even entirely true in Gundam 00, because while the only unit that could really compete with the 00 within the show was another twin linked drive made using Tau Drives rather than True GN Drives, the epilogue shows that even single drive Sakibures can do some of the same things like quantization once more research and development has been put into the process; and the Sakibure is not only a mass produced suit with one GN drive, it's a worker suit meant for ship maintenance and not actually a combat suit at all. Stairmaster posted:https://twitter.com/NIN_NIN_G/status/1578917620451274752?s=20&t=95Ov9r_5w9T4hWMx8ClZUQ This is basically just the Kikeroga:  Which was meant to be one of Char's suits from the original 52 episode plan for Mobile Suit Gundam, which he'd use after the Zeong was destroyed. It's basically a mobile suit sized Zeong, with wired hands that have cannons in each finger and two more cannons on the shoulders. What I've always found most intriguing about this is that Char was originally envisioned as using one more suit after the Kikeroga, called the Garaba, but Banrise have literally never addressed it in any way, shape or form beyond the name appearing in the outline of the original 52 episodes. It's never been animated, it's never been illustrated as MSV, it hasn't appeared in an AU, no-one has ever said what gimmicks or systems the suit would have; nothing. I would assume that since it was further along in the plan than even the Kikeroga, that little to no production work had been done to create a model for it and it may even have been literally just a name on some paper somewhere and not actually detailed yet at all, but even then, you'd imagine that someone would have done an MSV of it at some point given how many other unused ideas cropped up as MSV in the years after the original show. It seems almost like a deliberate absence, and my assumption was that the idea was that the Garaba would be or do something that isn't really compatible with UC as it is now anymore. Char famously stated at the start of the show that it doesn't matter how great the machine, because it's the pilot inside that makes the difference; but he never quite lived up to that claim, because he could never actually beat the Gundam even when Amuro was still learning the ropes as a pilot because of the technological gap the RX-78-2 represented. Which, if you add the fact that Amuro and Char had opposing character arcs, with Amuro starting with very narrow, petty motives and gaining a broader picture while Char had a broader perspective on the war at the start of the show and became increasingly petty over time makes me think that the Garaba would be a unit that would put Char on a similarly uneven technological footing to the Gundam. I like to think that it'd have armor that Amuro simply cannot penetrate with the Gundam's weapons; possibly by using a mobile suit sized i-field in some way, but one that buffed up the physical armor too a la electric armor. A gap Amuro would have to find some creative way to work around using the environment, improvised weapons or simply by disabling the system in some fashion on the fly. Of course, that's just an assumption based on the complete lack of information or even acknowledgement, but it's a fun thought at the very least.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 12:51
|
|
|
Yeah, every Gundam gets to show off unprecedentedly extreme strength. The only single-reactor suit that even comes close in pure hitting power is the Graze Ein, which is specially designed to use its long limbs and heavy weaponry to create energy-efficient momentum, and therefore can only smash things like a Gundam when it's got the time and space for a big windup. The Julia has speed, range, and sharp blades, but only single-reactor strength, which is demonstrated when Mikazuki is beating the poo poo out of Julietta - they're actually landing a similar number of hits, but she's only lightly scratching the Barbatos while it's tearing huge chunks off her suit. There's also the Helmwige (the refitted Grimgerde) with its gigantic sword, but that's obviously making enormous sacrifices in speed and agility that a Gundam doesn't have to in order to carry that kind of hardware (as Mikazuki demonstrates when he steals its weapon and uses it like a fencing epee).
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 14:42
|
|
|
I love isurugi's look of shocked awe at the battle when mikazuki comes by to take his sword. this shot always sticks in my brain, almost as much as the mobile armor's fantastic screech
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
Lemon-Lime posted:Characters look into the camera and go "so this is the power that ended the Calamity War" as it's happening. And what about the twin drives makes that seem to be the cause? Like if the problem is that I'm getting fed too much raw information by the computer, that likely isn't because the engine is bigger. If anything that seems like a software or processing issue. This isn't the tallgeese where the veniers pulverize your internal organs due to g forces, the damage is entirely though the AV link. It seems more likely that gundams are designed with AV in mind, that the initial system is capable of dumping crippling amounts of data through the link, but limits it in normal use, then kicks that to the curb when a mobile armor comes into view. Edit: just to be clear, I think the twin drive probably does up the strength of the suit, but the red eye berzerker poo poo is absolutely the av at its finest. Caros fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Nov 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 18:49
|
|
|
Caros posted:And what about the twin drives makes that seem to be the cause? Two reactors = twice the musclepower.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 18:56
|
|
|
the terrifying strength of the gundams definitely comes from a combination of the AV system + frames/engines with the strength and durability to utilize the AV to its fullest potential but like remove the AVs and gundams are definitely better robots than even top of the line end of s2 stuff, although the gap is a lot narrower by that point
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 20:34
|
|
|
It's indisputable text that the Gundams are freakishly strong in terms of raw power output. The Barbatos physically caves in insanely tough mobile suit frames with raw blunt force trauma and the Gusion Rebake's trademark move is literally crushing mobile suits into paste like a trash compactor using a set of unpowered manual clamps. Nothing else in the setting is ever shown demonstrating remotely that level of raw brute physical power besides the Hashmal and the Graze Ein.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 21:53
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3qgudxPeko So this is the power of whale money. Though the standing around isn't great, I really enjoy the chunky feel of the combat that feels like it's truly from the grunt perspective. Shields actually do something, though everyone's accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. While the MS taking cover behind buildings isn't exactly realistic, since most of those buildings wouldn't stand up to much fire at all, the cover it unrealistically gives does add a lot to the whole fight. And that goddamn Nemo pilot is a badass. It's a cutscene from UC Engage, which is apparently a gacha autobattler following various UC stories including a new multi-era story centered on Peche Montagne, a UC Engage original whose life intersects with many canon characters. From what I've gathered based on subs and unreliable internet trawling, Peche is a newtype candidate in Zeon who joins the newtype corps late war after her adopted father's death while testing the plasma leaders for the Val Walo. She ends up posted on Granada along her father's old friend, Ashley. She's not a great pilot (she can operate psycommu or pilot, but can't focus on both at once) but she gets a mid-battle power-up during A Baoa Qu after copilot gets wounded while they're piloting a heavily modded Zakrello with a bunch of wire-guided weapons. She survives the war and joins Anaheim, testing the titular Engage Gundam, which is apparently a split/parallel development to 0083's MSV GP00. She later engages with Michel (a mechanic at Kelly's junkyard) in a Kampfer high mobility custom (looks like a hodgepodge of a Kampfer and Gerbera Tetra, can't tell if they're trying to imply a development link), presumably because Delaz's big announcement got her willing to die senselessly for Zeon. For the Zeta era segment, she's now working at Augusta Labs as a another test pilot/newtype candidate. There's some Nanai cameos and Peche tries to help handle Rosamia. When Augusta comes under attack from AEUG (the actual linked segment), she launches to assist. Notably, her Engage Gundam has upgraded to a larger backpack with incoms, though she doesn't deploy them. Second bit has her... trying to reach Rosamia in the Psyco Gundam Mk2 and fails, then gets clowned on by Zeta. The Zeong-esque equipment looks quite fun though she's still a pretty mediocre pilot. At least it didn't end in another toasted newtype/cyber newtype.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
Argas posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3qgudxPeko To be specific that Zakrello variant is the Brawrello, which as the name implies takes it's wire guided parts from the Braw Bro, it's one of those MSV designs that's actually been around for a long time, though I think this is the first time it's shown up in anything aside from maybe some of the G-Generation games
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2022 23:40
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:To be specific that Zakrello variant is the Brawrello, which as the name implies takes it's wire guided parts from the Braw Bro, it's one of those MSV designs that's actually been around for a long time, though I think this is the first time it's shown up in anything aside from maybe some of the G-Generation games Rad
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 02:46
|
|
|
It's also worth remembering that an IBO Gundam's increased power output makes it better at everything. It's more durable thanks to having more power to strengthen its nanolaminate coating, and it's faster and more agile even when carrying extremely heavy weaponry. In other words, generalist Gundams can match specialist single-reactor suits in their own specialist fields, and specialist Gundams can get more extreme performance in their specialty than any other machine. See also the Vidar, which is a Gundam Frame with an ultra-lightweight loadout, and is basically untouchable by any other suit in the setting, or the Brewers' Gusion, which is a Gundam Frame with an ultra-heavy loadout, and can annihilate basically anything in a single hit while being nearly immune to any other suit's weaponry.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 04:25
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:It's also worth remembering that an IBO Gundam's increased power output makes it better at everything. It's more durable thanks to having more power to strengthen its nanolaminate coating, and it's faster and more agile even when carrying extremely heavy weaponry. In other words, generalist Gundams can match specialist single-reactor suits in their own specialist fields, and specialist Gundams can get more extreme performance in their specialty than any other machine. See also the Vidar, which is a Gundam Frame with an ultra-lightweight loadout, and is basically untouchable by any other suit in the setting, or the Brewers' Gusion, which is a Gundam Frame with an ultra-heavy loadout, and can annihilate basically anything in a single hit while being nearly immune to any other suit's weaponry. That said, it's notable that the baseline durability for IBO suits is kinda bullshit by the standards of most settings, even ignoring beams. Aki's brother got hit full-on with Guision's asteroid-shattering hammer, and his suit was still in shape to be refurbished and put back to work, with the pilot surviving long enough for a last conversation. (Similarly, baseline agility seems solid from the inertial canceller thing. It's not necessarily the stomach liquefier that you get with the Tallgeese's boosters, but it seems an average Graze or Hyakuren is still on the quick side for a grunt.) There's a notable gap between Gundams and non-Gundams, but it's not, as Witch says, "Only a Gundam can defeat a Gundam!". It's just that beating a Gundam in a non-Gundam suit wants a massive situational advantage (like the Reginlaze pilots who killed Akihiro, or the battleships that blew up Shino) or a major pilot advantage (like McGillis taking down Gaelio in season 1.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 05:22
|
|
|
how does the better reactor improve the paint?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 05:48
|
|
|
pre-calamity artists simply had more swag
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 05:49
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:how does the better reactor improve the paint? The paint reacts with Ahab particles to improve its resistance to damage, so more particle output means more durability.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 05:50
|
|
|
it's like how flame decals make cars go faster
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 06:05
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:it's like how flame decals make cars go faster Barbatos did move faster in the last episode, when it had more speed holes...
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 06:07
|
|
|
Also that uc engage clip looks like a battle from Gundam wing where all the grunt suits forget they have jetpacks
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 06:20
|
|
|
Yinlock posted:it's like how flame decals make cars go faster Only if they're red. That's just propah Gundork logik
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 06:58
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:The paint reacts with Ahab particles to improve its resistance to damage, so more particle output means more durability.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 07:22
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:Also that uc engage clip looks like a battle from Gundam wing where all the grunt suits forget they have jetpacks Eh, one suit does try taking flight but it just gets shot down. In a situation where everyone gets bogged down like that, jumping up into the air is making yourself a target. Not that people can hit anything though, with those accuracy rates.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 08:34
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:There's a notable gap between Gundams and non-Gundams, but it's not, as Witch says, "Only a Gundam can defeat a Gundam!". I'm pretty sure the Beguir-Beu pilot from the prologue would take exception to that idea.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 08:44
|
|
|
They revealed a Kira Yamato figuarts and at first I was like lol drat they hosed that up But I went back and checked the character art and no he really was like that 
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 13:41
|
|
|
I'd take a dozen off-model Kiras before one glass eyed HD remaster Hirai design.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 13:49
|
|
|
ninjewtsu posted:the terrifying strength of the gundams definitely comes from a combination of the AV system + frames/engines with the strength and durability to utilize the AV to its fullest potential I'm late to the party, but the better maneuverability of Gundam frames with the AV limiter off (and in general) can easily be tied to power output. These are still machines, and they either need to put force into mass to move (running and jumping) or generate thrust (flight/space combat). Pound for pound, if you have more force/thrust to work with, you've got a higher maneuverability ceiling before you start running to the limits of your ability to perform a high-G turn for example. I'm even assuming away turning speed here, which could also be improved with a Gundam frame's higher output. You really can't discount power plant output in performance comparisons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 15:13
|
|
|
Argas posted:Eh, one suit does try taking flight but it just gets shot down. In a situation where everyone gets bogged down like that, jumping up into the air is making yourself a target. Not that people can hit anything though, with those accuracy rates. It is very weird how post-Tomino UC fights because as soon as Zeta Gundam, mobile suits are just *zipping* with basically unlimited hovering and flying way before the Zeta shows up. The Psycho Gundam on earth easily catching up to flying mobile suits like it was nothing. Grunt mobile suits are "leaping" like miles in the air in the air, and stay in the air for basically the same as flight units in other shows.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 15:14
|
|
|
Amuro, Char and Kamille have multiple fights on Earth where they are hampered by their limited capability in the air using a Rick Dias, the Hyaku Shiki and the Mk 2, with them constantly needing to land on and/or jump off of flight platforms, planes and/or other units in order to stay airborne at all. I'm sure there are examples of background suits just flying around, but the primary fighters are definitely hampered by lack of flight, especially in comparison to their enemy, who can do so using units like the Asshimar, Gaplant or even the Psyco Gundam; all of which can fly in at least their mobile armor form, and I think the Gaplant may be capable of actual flight in mobile suit form too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 15:30
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rVox2X908M They called the New Gundam the Nu Gundam
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 15:30
|
|
|
Whoa hey a space colony map, that's actually kinda Gundam
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 15:42
|
|
|
The weirdest thing about Evolution remains the weird lack of beam sabers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 15:49
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rVox2X908M They called the New Gundam the Nu Gundam That's some pretty wild whiplash between the dramatic arrival cutscene and then cutting to slow shooter gameplay.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 16:41
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rVox2X908M They called the New Gundam the Nu Gundam too bad the game is dead
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 18:43
|
|
|
Stairmaster posted:too bad the game is dead Funny story: I tried queuing to knock out a couple of my last season pass things I never bothered to finish earlier in the season today and I waited in casual queue for like 10 minutes each on both the NA and Japan servers, got one game, and the game shut down due to a player leaving. Steamdb says there's like 600 people playing. Christ. Hopefully season 2 will reinvigorate it, because it's a fun game, but they really need to tweak their monetization scheme and be more proactive about balancing some suits for bottom tier dumpster casual play, and I have my doubts. It's a shame because it's an extremely fun gundam game when it's firing on all cylinders.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 18:58
|
|
|
When I played a few days ago the wait to get into a casual match was pretty quick. Most of the games were a stomp one way or the other though - but the 1 game that wasn't? loving incredible, that game has some really fun base mechanics and design. Lower skill level balance I'd say is broadly pretty good but man gently caress barbatos and the sniper (and by extension, the harbor map). Barb is obviously fine/underpowered once you get to higher skill levels but even when you can deal with him it's never a fun interaction, and getting instakilled is always a lovely player experience.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 19:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 03:51 |
|
|
I'll play it when it comes out on Playstation, if that doesn't get delayed again
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2022 19:24
|
|