|
Charliegrs posted:Isn't it true that the A10 Gatling gun is scary as hell but wouldn't actually destroy a modern tank? So I wonder how the tungsten ball bearings from a HIMARS round would compare to that. The A-10's gun might struggle fully penetrating a T-72/T-80 from the sides at any practical range that doesn't involve the plane also ramming the tank (less so the rear or roof/engine deck) but as others have said a hundred almost penetrations will still gently caress up a tank something fierce. Not to mention when the A-10 was developed the Soviets and the wider Warsaw Pact were still using a fair number of T-55s and T-62s which it would 100% get hosed up from the side by bunch of 30mm depleted uranium rounds. But there's a reason the A-10 was also designed around firing half a dozen Maverick missiles at targets at range, or dropping a bunch of cluster bombs and not just the gun. Tanks aside, the A-10s gun will absolutely shred anything lighter like a BMP from the front in a way that the average 20mm Vulcan on US planes might have trouble doing. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Nov 18, 2022 |
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 20:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 17:33 |
|
|
Budzilla posted:I am really surprised with all the puncture holes in just the 1 truck. 182000 preformed fragments. cr0y posted:They punch wholes in the loving trucks frame That's why it's tungsten. For hypervelocity impacts, density makes a lot of difference. Also helps a lot with range of effects. High sectional density makes the very small fragments go much farther before they slow down to ineffectiveness.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 20:46
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/cpartisans/status/1593634667147988993 Belarusian cyber partisans continuing their good work. Expect many stories coming out of the materials they've obtained.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 21:05
|
|
|
https://t.me/breakingmash/39988quote:Footage of a naval drone strike by the Ukrainian Armed Forces on the Sheskharis oil harbor in Novorossiysk. This is mainland Russia, not Crimea. Video is just a distant explosion from two different angles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 21:41
|
|
|
Favorite part of the perforated truck video is that it's super clear the truck has holes violently drilled into or through practically every vital component and he getting told "fix it! Now!!" Like ok my guy let me just pump some fix-a-flat into the newly ventilated engine block and we'll be good to go I'm sure
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 22:08
|
|
|
Staluigi posted:Favorite part of the perforated truck video is that it's super clear the truck has holes violently drilled into or through practically every vital component and he getting told "fix it! Now!!" Like ok my guy let me just pump some fix-a-flat into the newly ventilated engine block and we'll be good to go I'm sure This is what JB weld is for.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2022 23:25
|
|
|
Has anyone else stumbled on the possible execution video where approximately a dozen RU armed forces surrendered sans one, who decided to die a martyr? Original information on the video I found blamed Kadyrovites, but a second video (on ground via UAF go pro footage) shows the surrender & the man charging out with an AK heavily hints that they were killed after the one armed RUS soldier was put down. I'm unsure if I'm able to post either video here due to the NSFW content, but I feel like I have to speak out about a possible war crime.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
MyMomSaysImKeen posted:Has anyone else stumbled on the possible execution video where approximately a dozen RU armed forces surrendered sans one, who decided to die a martyr? It's been discussed. Sadly, you're probably correct that the video shows a war crime, but probably not the one you're expecting. AS far as I understand things from the recent discussions, it sounds like once the Russian dude started blastin', whatever the Ukrainians did after that probably wasn't a war crime, legally speaking. Please note that I'm not saying that that's a good thing. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 03:20
|
|
|
MyMomSaysImKeen posted:Has anyone else stumbled on the possible execution video where approximately a dozen RU armed forces surrendered sans one, who decided to die a martyr? Here's a decent little thread on surrender procedures: https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1593705944365633537
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 03:40
|
|
|
I don't think we need to defend a bunch of people getting murdered because it's "technically" not a war crime. It's a chaotic and scary situation I'm sure and we don't have all the details but neither does Twitter guy who is 100% sure it's fine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 03:53
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:Here's a decent little thread on surrender procedures: A film student who was a private in the Italian army isn't what I would call an authoritative source on the laws of land warfare. Or POW procedures.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 03:53
|
|
|
What part of that are you disputing because it aligns with basically every video of Ukrainians accepting surrenders that is out there, which almost universally show people coming out of a space with their hands up, laying down flat, while covered from multiple angles by people with weapons at the ready. There's plenty of footage of NATO militaries conducting surrenders the same way. I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainians are jumpier given that there were a bunch of reports of Russian units pretending to surrender to get close to Ukrainian positions earlier in the war, but overall it appears to match up.
Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 04:00
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:What part of that are you disputing Never seen training that says if one guy starts a fight, shoot everyone on the site. Hard to tell what all transpired, but that’s a point where this twitter dude either came from a very weird unit with bad training or is just bullshitting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 04:14
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:What part of that are you disputing because it aligns with basically every video of Ukrainians accepting surrenders that is out there, which almost universally show people coming out of a space with their hands up, laying down flat, while covered from multiple angles by people with weapons at the ready. There's plenty of footage of NATO militaries conducting surrenders the same way. I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainians are jumpier given that there were a bunch of reports of Russian units pretending to surrender to get close to Ukrainian positions earlier in the war, but overall it appears to match up. Lines up with the video of them shooting Russian POW's in the leg and letting them bleed out
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 04:28
|
|
|
mlmp08 posted:Never seen training that says if one guy starts a fight, shoot everyone on the site. Hard to tell what all transpired, but that’s a point where this twitter dude either came from a very weird unit with bad training or is just bullshitting. I don't particularly care to go to bat for some twitter guys tweets, but I don't believe he says anywhere that they are trained to shoot everyone present? Closest he gets is 'if people move start shooting immediately' which likely gets emphasized pretty hard given Ukrainians were publicizing issues with Russians pretending to surrender earlier in the war. What he says certainly seems to match up with how Ukrainians take prisoners, of which there is a lot of footage, both of the propaganda type and clearly day to day. my personal feeling is that whatever happened is a ridiculous waste of life and is an exceedingly unnecessary tragedy, even by the standards of war Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 04:31
|
|
|
Did the Russians on the ground remain perfectly still once the shooting started? Doubtful. At that point it would have been fair game to consider the situation orchestrated and them a threat. The only thing we know for sure is that they'd be alive if they'd stayed in Russia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 04:33
|
|
|
Opening fire on a whole group of enemy soldiers trying to surrender because one of them was only pretending to surrender and tried shooting isn’t remotely the same as executing POWs who have been captured and disarmed and are helpless, and I can’t believe so many people are trying to equate the two. I’m doubtful that soldiers in any Western army would have had better discipline in the same situation.adebisi lives posted:Lines up with the video of them shooting Russian POW's in the leg and letting them bleed out No, that was an actual, unambiguous war crime. The whole difference is that in the first scenario the Ukrainian soldiers were in actual danger, while in the second they were in none. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 06:46
|
|
|
8000 vehicles! 1500 tanks!https://mobile.twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1593714765150490628
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 06:47
|
|
|
Sucrose posted:Opening fire on a whole group of enemy soldiers trying to surrender because one of them was only pretending to surrender and tried attacking isn’t remotely the same as executing POWs who have been captured and disarmed and are helpless, and I can’t believe so many people are trying to equate the two. I’m doubtful that soldiers in any Western army would have had better discipline in the same situation. It's more that we really don't know the specifics and a bunch of people going "oh that's totally fine and justified" because it's Ukraine doing it when I would guess if those were Ukranian POWs wouldn't be so flippant. I can't say whether it was justified or not (I won't even watch the video) but I just think we shouldn't be so blasé about these things.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 06:50
|
|
|
Popete posted:It's more that we really don't know the specifics and a bunch of people going "oh that's totally fine and justified" because it's Ukraine doing it when I would guess if those were Ukranian POWs wouldn't be so flippant. Imagine if an american did that to iraqis on video, or a cop to civilians, or a frenchman to algerians, or a
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 06:57
|
|
|
Who said that it is totally fine and justified or for that matter is even being blase about it?Edgar Allen Ho posted:Imagine if an american did that to iraqis on video, or a cop to civilians, or a frenchman to algerians, or a Please quote anyone actually saying that. The difference here at least so far is that they 1) weren't tied up 2) weren't fully surrendered (i.e. the situation was still actively a threat, as is immensely obvious from the video when one of the people surrendering runs out shooting). Also idk what those things you are bringing up have to do with this situation and I highly recommend you actually look at the footage people are talking about (there's no gore and it's edited to only show the circumstances and is only moderately leading in its framing). From the information that is presently out there it looks to be an attempted surrender that went tragically wrong. Whatever the full story is, I hope it comes out and I suspect it will because this was clearly recorded both on the ground and by drone. If the whole thing was a few hectic seconds, then it's horrible and a tragedy. If the whole thing was a few seconds of dealing with the gunman and then Ukrainian forces went around executing people then by all means prosecute the gently caress out of everyone involved. At the moment we just do not know. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 06:58
|
|
|
Popete posted:It's more that we really don't know the specifics and a bunch of people going "oh that's totally fine and justified" because it's Ukraine doing it when I would guess if those were Ukranian POWs wouldn't be so flippant. I don’t think it’s justified so much as understandable, unlike brutalizing or killing POWs who have actually been taken into custody and are helpless, which is never even slightly justified and is a clear war crime. Edgar Allen Ho posted:Imagine if an american did that to iraqis on video, or a cop to civilians, or a frenchman to algerians, or a Ok, I haven’t actually seen the video. Were some of them already searched and tied up, and outside the line of fire to those who weren’t? If so that’s different. Dammit, I guess I’m going to have to watch another video of people dying… Some of the situations you listed are not comparable; a policeman is not supposed to be treating the civilians he’s policing like they’re enemy loving soldiers during a war. Edit: Ok, watched the video. No, none of them had been searched or tied up. They were coming out of a building one-by-one with their hands up and then lying down on the ground, when one of them comes out with his hands up and then apparently tries to fire a gun, at which point the Ukrainians immediately open fire and waste the entire group. Should they have done that? No, probably not. Is it the same as executing captured POWs? No, it’s not. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 07:01
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Imagine if an american did that to iraqis on video, or a cop to civilians, or a frenchman to algerians, or a It'd be okay if any of those examples happened or if any of those situations were reversed. Perfidy is against the rules of war for a reason and this was a flagrant example of such. It's still tragic, because all war is tragic, but it's not a war crime for the Ukrainians. It's the Russian that opened fire that is the war criminal. The blood of his comrades that were attempting to surrender are on his hands. Charlz Guybon fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 07:01
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:Who said that it is totally fine and justified or for that matter is even being blase about it? I think the original Tweet from the Italian guy took a tone of "this is totally fine and you're trained to do it" when I kind of doubt that is the case. This sound at best like a moral grey area, even if something doesn't qualify as a by the book war crime doesn't mean it's ok either. Again I'll say it was probably a chaotic situation maybe it was justified maybe there was some aspect of revenge, I don't know. I just hope we can step back and remember how horrifying war is and we shouldn't look to justify or give pass to one side.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 07:13
|
|
|
Popete posted:I think the original Tweet from the Italian guy took a tone of "this is totally fine and you're trained to do it" when I kind of doubt that is the case. This sound at best like a moral grey area, even if something doesn't qualify as a by the book war crime doesn't mean it's ok either. Yeah that's reasonable and I agree. What a loving pointless waste of human life 
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 07:37
|
|
|
Popete posted:I think the original Tweet from the Italian guy took a tone of "this is totally fine and you're trained to do it" when I kind of doubt that is the case. This sound at best like a moral grey area, even if something doesn't qualify as a by the book war crime doesn't mean it's ok either. At best what the Ukrainians did wasn't a war crime, but that's a really low bar and there's a lot of room to be unjustified and not war criming above it, unfortunately.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 09:20
|
|
|
Sucrose posted:Edit: Ok, watched the video. No, none of them had been searched or tied up. They were coming out of a building one-by-one with their hands up and then lying down on the ground, when one of them comes out with his hands up and then apparently tries to fire a gun, at which point the Ukrainians immediately open fire and waste the entire group. The video I saw earlier only showed a few seconds after the surrendering Russian opens fire in which the camera turns away/falls before cutting to drone footage of the rest of the dead Russians. Did the video you saw actually show the Ukrainians opening fire on the men? I don't doubt the Ukrainians returned fire and killed them all, but the video I saw doesn't actually show that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 10:38
|
|
|
“Returned fire and killed them all” to refer to surrendered dudes lying motionless becoming dead dudes lying in the same position is some “an unfortunate bullet originated from near the officer and fatally struck” tier poo poo
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 11:21
|
|
|
Kchama posted:At best what the Ukrainians did wasn't a war crime, but that's a really low bar and there's a lot of room to be unjustified and not war criming above it, unfortunately. Yeah, exactly. " war crime " doesn't mean "morally bad thing done during war" it means "violation of laws of war" and a lot of really horrible stuff doesn't violate the laws of war e.g., killing people is allowed! Normally that's the absolute worst thing! In war, it legal! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Nov 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 11:25
|
|
|
Soldiers have no duty of care towards the enemy they are trying to kill, unsurprisingly. Rules around surrender exist because soldiers not fighting to the death at all times is positive, but soldiers are under no obligation to put themselves at risk to try and save their oppositions lives.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 12:00
|
|
|
I feel like the lesson to draw from this is that if I ever find myself in a squad about surrender to a group of jumpy enemy soldiers, and I suspect one of my squadmates isn't 100% onboard with it and is going to try some poo poo, I''m gonna want to at the very least take his gun away and tie him up preemptively.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 12:45
|
|
|
Faking surrender isn't a little oopsie doodle. It's one of the things that historically leads to ever-escalating reprisals and counter-reprisals, which is why it is itself a war crime.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 14:01
|
|
|
MyMomSaysImKeen posted:I'm unsure if I'm able to post either video here due to the NSFW content, but I feel like I have to speak out about a possible war crime. Reading the thread rules should help with decisions surrounding graphic footage, and leading conversations about videos not linked in the thread.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 14:46
|
|
|
sean10mm posted:Faking surrender isn't a little oopsie doodle. It's one of the things that historically leads to ever-escalating reprisals and counter-reprisals, which is why it is itself a war crime. I don't think anyone disagrees that faking surrender is a war crime. The question is how proportionate the reaction to that was. Shooting back at the guy who opened fire on you is completely justified, no doubts about that. But shooting the soldiers who had already surrendered according to all rules? We don't know for sure that they didn't also try something, but the footage we have doesn't support that. It also doesn't look like they were caught in the crossfire. With that in mind, the only sensible opinion on the matter can be that there needs to be a proper investigation into how and why those Russian soldiers died. It absolutely can't be 'wow, war is bad, but oh well, shouldn't have been in the same unit with the crazy guy who wanted to die a hero, and shouldn't have been there at all in the first place'.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 15:29
|
|
|
E: nm
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 15:40
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:I don't think anyone disagrees that faking surrender is a war crime. The question is how proportionate the reaction to that was. Shooting back at the guy who opened fire on you is completely justified, no doubts about that. But shooting the soldiers who had already surrendered according to all rules? We don't know for sure that they didn't also try something, but the footage we have doesn't support that. It also doesn't look like they were caught in the crossfire. With that in mind, the only sensible opinion on the matter can be that there needs to be a proper investigation into how and why those Russian soldiers died. It absolutely can't be 'wow, war is bad, but oh well, shouldn't have been in the same unit with the crazy guy who wanted to die a hero, and shouldn't have been there at all in the first place'. That seems unlikely to happen at this point right? Does the Ukrainian military publicize any court martial records at all to draw the line on unreasonable conduct? Everything I've seen suggests that they are backing their guys 100% to the hilt (this isn't unreasonable considering the circumstances and even at the best of times the military tries to keep things under wraps for morale purposes). I don't know for example, if the previous Amnesty International accusations of basing operations out of hospitals even warranted a cursory investigation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 16:22
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:I don't think anyone disagrees that faking surrender is a war crime. The question is how proportionate the reaction to that was. I don't get why we have all these armchair JAGs arguing over this when it's already been firmly established that it's standard procedure to hose down surrendering troops with a machine gun if even one of them tries to use the opportunity to attack you. Yes, it loving sucks, but that's the thing, war loving sucks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 16:22
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:The question is how proportionate the reaction to that was. Realistically if someone comes out shooting during a surrender its not unreasonable, for the soldiers being surrendered to, to think it might be a trap and just start shooting everyone and ask questions later. Given that prior to that 1 Russian jumping out shooting they were allowing surrender I don't think the Ukrainian troops really were all that bloodthirsty. BUT you can't expect them to throw away their lives in a situation that might be a trap. They want to live too. And they're going to do what they can to make sure that they do.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 16:42
|
|
|
https://mobile.twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1593980283547705347
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 17:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 17:33 |
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:That seems unlikely to happen at this point right? Does the Ukrainian military publicize any court martial records at all to draw the line on unreasonable conduct? Everything I've seen suggests that they are backing their guys 100% to the hilt (this isn't unreasonable considering the circumstances and even at the best of times the military tries to keep things under wraps for morale purposes). I don't know for example, if the previous Amnesty International accusations of basing operations out of hospitals even warranted a cursory investigation. Back in March, I think, some soldiers shot at and killed a teenager dressed in camo by mistake. They were promptly dealt with. Around the same time, a field doctor who promised to castrate Russian POWs in a live interview, had to apologise and explain he was under a lot of stress and was not actually going to do that. Ukrainian government also commented on an early video of POW execution and promised to investigate it, but I don't think there were any public updates since. With the Amnesty report and also with similar reports from UN, the pattern seems to be push back first, and then reluctantly and quietly half-apologise and promise to do better in the future. We sort of see the same with Poland now, too. Compared to how Russia deals with similar cases, it's better, but obviously far from ideal. PC LOAD LETTER posted:From everything that has been posted about the legal and historical response to perfidy (which I don't know much about but given the gory details from WW1 and 2 relating it to it) it sure sounds like killing everyone was, legally at least, legit. Again, it's not conclusive, but it doesn't look like other Russian soldiers were killed in panic. If they were executed when the only aggressive soldier had already been dealt with, I think it's much more legally ambiguous than if all Russian soldiers weren't already on the ground. Without knowing what exactly happened between the two videos, it's impossible to say one way or the other, hence why a proper investigation is needed. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 17:04
|
|