Terrible Car Stuff - Im sorry but in this thread we measure cargo capacity in shrimp

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Terrible Car Stuff - Im sorry but in this thread we measure cargo capacity in shrimp

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Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

I did NOT pony up for that, so my Model 3 does not have any excuse to start murdering people.

edit: pitiful yet confusing page snipe.

# ? Nov 24, 2022 20:46

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 17:06

wesleywillis: Dec 30, 2016; SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

Yeah yeah we know, you're one of "the good ones" :v:

# ? Nov 24, 2022 21:49

Dr.Smasher: Nov 27, 2002; Cyberpunk 1987

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

I did NOT pony up for that, so my Model 3 does not have any excuse to start murdering people.

edit: pitiful yet confusing page snipe.

One OTA update away from murdertron

# ? Nov 24, 2022 22:35

everdave: Nov 14, 2005

At thanksgiving and we went out to see the update in my buddy�s new 3. I thought this option was intriguing and didn�t see it in the few articles I saw

# ? Nov 24, 2022 22:41

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

The term 'full self driving capability' has to be actionable, right? There's no way that holds up in court considering y'know, the deaths and all...

# ? Nov 24, 2022 22:52

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Olympic Mathlete posted:

The term 'full self driving capability' has to be actionable, right? There's no way that holds up in court considering y'know, the deaths and all...

Exclusive: Tesla faces U.S. criminal probe over self-driving claims

quote:

Oct 25 - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) is under criminal investigation in the United States over claims that the company's electric vehicles can drive themselves, three people familiar with the matter said.

The U.S. Department of Justice launched the previously undisclosed probe last year following more than a dozen crashes, some of them fatal, involving Tesla�s driver assistance system Autopilot, which was activated during the accidents, the people said.

As early as 2016, Tesla�s marketing materials have touted Autopilot�s capabilities. On a conference call that year, Elon Musk, the Silicon Valley automaker�s chief executive, described it as �probably better� than a human driver.

Last week, Musk said on another call Tesla would soon release an upgraded version of �Full Self-Driving� software allowing customers to travel �to your work, your friend�s house, to the grocery store without you touching the wheel.�

A video currently on the company�s website says: �The person in the driver�s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.�

However, the company also has explicitly warned drivers that they must keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicles while using Autopilot.

The Tesla technology is designed to assist with steering, braking, speed and lane changes but its features �do not make the vehicle autonomous,� the company says on its website.

Such warnings could complicate any case the Justice Department might wish to bring, the sources said.

Tesla, which disbanded its media relations department in 2020, did not respond to written questions from Reuters on Wednesday. Musk also did not respond to written questions seeking comment. A Justice Department spokesperson declined to comment.

Musk said in an interview with Automotive News in 2020 that Autopilot problems stem from customers using the system in ways contrary to Tesla�s instructions.

Federal and California safety regulators are already scrutinizing whether claims about Autopilot's capabilities and the system's design imbue customers with a false sense of security, inducing them to treat Teslas as truly driverless cars and become complacent behind the wheel with potentially deadly consequences.

The Justice Department investigation potentially represents a more serious level of scrutiny because of the possibility of criminal charges against the company or individual executives, the people familiar with the inquiry said.

As part of the latest probe, Justice Department prosecutors in Washington and San Francisco are examining whether Tesla misled consumers, investors and regulators by making unsupported claims about its driver assistance technology's capabilities, the sources said.

Officials conducting their inquiry could ultimately pursue criminal charges, seek civil sanctions or close the probe without taking any action, they said.

The Justice Department�s Autopilot probe is far from recommending any action partly because it is competing with two other DOJ investigations involving Tesla, one of the sources said. Investigators still have much work to do and no decision on charges is imminent, this source said.

The Justice Department may also face challenges in building its case, said the sources, because of Tesla�s warnings about overreliance on Autopilot.

For instance, after telling the investor call last week that Teslas would soon travel without customers touching controls, Musk added that the vehicles still needed someone in the driver�s seat. �Like we�re not saying that that�s quite ready to have no one behind the wheel,� he said.

The Tesla website also cautions that, before enabling Autopilot, the driver first needs to agree to "keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times" and to always "maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle.�

Barbara McQuade, a former U.S. attorney in Detroit who prosecuted automotive companies and employees in fraud cases and is not involved in the current probe, said investigators likely would need to uncover evidence such as emails or other internal communications showing that Tesla and Musk made misleading statements about Autopilot�s capabilities on purpose.

SEVERAL PROBES

The criminal Autopilot investigation adds to the other probes and legal issues involving Musk, who became locked in a court battle earlier this year after abandoning a $44 billion takeover of social media giant Twitter Inc, only to reverse course and proclaim excitement for the looming acquisition.

In August 2021, the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration opened an investigation into a series of crashes, one of them fatal, involving Teslas equipped with Autopilot slamming into parked emergency vehicles.

NHTSA officials in June intensified their probe, which covers 830,000 Teslas with Autopilot, identifying 16 crashes involving the company�s electric cars and stationary first-responder and road maintenance vehicles. The move is a step that regulators must take before requesting a recall. The agency had no immediate comment.

In July this year, the California Department of Motor Vehicles accused Tesla of falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability as providing autonomous vehicle control. Tesla filed paperwork with the agency seeking a hearing on the allegations and indicated it intends to defend against them. The DMV said in a statement it is currently in the discovery stage of the proceeding and declined further comment.

# ? Nov 24, 2022 22:56

MrYenko: Jun 18, 2012; #2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

everdave posted:

At thanksgiving and we went out to see the update in my buddy�s new 3. I thought this option was intriguing and didn�t see it in the few articles I saw

It�s been available for awhile now. It�s particularly egregious since if you don�t have the FSD beta (which was a pretty limited user pool till this week,) all the $200/mo got you was automated lane changes.

# ? Nov 25, 2022 00:08

cursedshitbox: May 20, 2012; Your rear-end wont survive my hammering.; Fun Shoe

What's worse? an alcoholic at the helm or a poorly trained pile of math with limited input features?

# ? Nov 25, 2022 00:18

McTinkerson: Jul 5, 2007; Dreaming of Shock Diamonds

cursedshitbox posted:

What's worse? an alcoholic at the helm or a poorly trained pile of math with limited input features?

I bet there's a government agency, university or newspaper that would pay you money to find out. All scientific like.

# ? Nov 25, 2022 00:21

dissss: Nov 10, 2007; I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

Olympic Mathlete posted:

The term 'full self driving capability' has to be actionable, right? There's no way that holds up in court considering y'know, the deaths and all...

Seems pretty clear cut - if the car isn't capable of driving by itself in all conditions then it shouldn't be called 'Full self driving'. Call it 'Limited self driving' or 'Partial self driving'

# ? Nov 25, 2022 00:26

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

cursedshitbox posted:

What's worse? an alcoholic at the helm or a poorly trained pile of math with limited input features?

Uhhhhh. Jeeez.

After consideration the poorly trained math. Just.

# ? Nov 25, 2022 01:08

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Olympic Mathlete posted:

The term 'full self driving capability' has to be actionable, right? There's no way that holds up in court considering y'know, the deaths and all...

# ? Nov 25, 2022 01:50

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:

Uhhhhh. Jeeez.

After consideration the poorly trained math. Just.

What if the math is drunk? Asking for a friend's car.

# ? Nov 25, 2022 03:15

Uthor: Jul 9, 2006; Gummy Bear Heaven ... It's where I go when the world is too mean.

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

What if the math is drunk? Asking for a friend's car.

What if the mathematician is drunk?

# ? Nov 25, 2022 04:08

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

dissss posted:

Seems pretty clear cut - if the car isn't capable of driving by itself in all conditions then it shouldn't be called 'Full self driving'. Call it 'Limited self driving' or 'Partial self driving'

"Self driving" is a pure marketing term no matter which company uses it. I agree that it's false advertising in Tesla's case, but that's about it. They don't actually say anywhere that their cars can drive themselves without human intervention. They just heavily imply it in a scummy way.

SAE International has a very clear explanation of what qualifies for each level of autonomous driving they define.

Level 0: fully manual car, not even including cruise control. Duh.

Level 1: shared manual and computer control. Features like cruise control, radar cruise control, lane keeping assist, automatic emergency braking, automatic parallel parking, etc. In no situation can the driver relinquish full control to the car -- human input is always required. Every new car on the market has most of these features now.

Level 2: hands-off driving. You can let go of the controls under some range of situations that the manufacturer can define, and the car will accelerate, brake, and steer itself, but you have to watch the road and be ready to immediately take control at any moment. Tesla's autopilot is here, and so is GM super cruise, Ford blue cruise, etc. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer says you can only do this on highways, or if they claim it can be used on any street anywhere, or what set of features like lane changing and navigation it has. The key distinction is: if there needs to be a driver monitoring who must be able to take over instantly, it's no higher than level 2.

Level 3: "eyes-off" driving. You can take your hands off the wheel and start texting or watching a movie. The car can do all the driving by itself, and when it encounters something it can't handle, it will alert you to pay attention and take over. Notably, this means that the car has to handle emergencies flawlessly on its own. You can't just beep and say TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY and give up control, as teslas do, and call yourself level 3. You have to give the human a couple of seconds at least to drop their phone, parse what's going on, and react appropriately.

Level 4: "brain off" self driving. You can go to sleep and let the car do its thing. The level 4 area can be strictly defined and limited; for instance, you could have a car where you have to drive it manually onto the highway, and then it takes over and drives itself all the way to your destination offramp while you sleep, where it exits and pulls over and wakes you up to keep going. Obviously because you are asleep the car has to handle everything in that defined envelope, including all emergency situations and safely pulling over and stopping in a situation beyond its capacity.

Level 5: no steering wheel required robotic car. You just get in and it goes where you tell it to, handling every situation as well as a professional human driver could.

As noted, every car you've been able to buy for 20 years is at least level 1.

Nearly every car with self-driving features today is at most level 2, including all teslas.

There is one Honda car that has been legally approved as level 3, and only in traffic jams -- in that situation you can sit back and play with your phone. There is no car you can buy that drives level 3 in any other situation.

The waymo self-driving cars are level 4 in the few areas they operate, like the geofenced part of downtown Phoenix where they're allowed to drive with no driver. No car without multiple lidars and a centimeter level map of the operational area is even close to level 4.

Level 5 will probably require strong AI, and so is decades away at least.

So anyway the long and short of this is: Tesla uses weasely terms like "full-self-driving" and "autopilot" because they know that the technical definitions will reveal that their cars are no better than anyone else's. Level 3 is where the car begins to truly become autonomous, and I've seen them making claims that their cars are already level 3, but they absolutely aren't as long as they have that tiny line about keeping your hands on the wheel. They're just plain old level 2, and not a very reliable implementation at that, with a bunch of extra features (summon, etc) crammed in to make it seem like they're more advanced and right on the verge of level 4 or 5.

Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Nov 25, 2022

# ? Nov 25, 2022 08:08

bad_fmr: Nov 28, 2007

cursedshitbox posted:

What's worse? an alcoholic at the helm or a poorly trained pile of math with limited input features?

With Tesla you can have both

# ? Nov 25, 2022 08:17

Shai-Hulud: Jul 10, 2008; But it feels so right!; Lipstick Apathy

Sagebrush posted:

There is one Honda car that has been legally approved as level 3, and only in traffic jams -- in that situation you can sit back and play with your phone. There is no car you can buy that drives level 3 in any other situation.

Mercedes is selling the S class and the EQS with level 3 capability. Only in traffic jams and on specific roads.
At least in Germany. No idea how it is in the US

# ? Nov 25, 2022 12:57

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

bad_fmr posted:

With Tesla you can have both

Hey! I do not drink anymore...the alcoholic part is still true..

# ? Nov 25, 2022 18:56

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

It begins?

https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1596184675558514689?t=Aa_gYn4P1z-K3CLuwFHwog&s=19

# ? Nov 26, 2022 23:11

Nidhg00670000: Mar 26, 2010; We're in the pipe, five by five.; Grimey Drawer

Deteriorata posted:

Tesla's AI is a 92-year-old woman who can't see over the dash.

# ? Nov 27, 2022 00:02

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

Nidhg00670000 posted:

literally my same feeling the first time i rode in a friend's tesla with "full self driving." it felt like driving with my grandma just before she gave up her license at age 85. only dimly aware of the situation around her, jerky on the controls, unable to see more than a few hundred feet ahead, suddenly pulling terrifying moves out of nowhere, no planning for stoplights etc, only reacting (at the last second) to what the car immediately in front of her was doing.

# ? Nov 27, 2022 00:07

randomidiot: May 12, 2006; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 11 years!)

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Hey! I do not drink anymore...the alcoholic part is still true..

Same. Friend of Bill W, I take it?

Grumbletron 4000 posted:

How hosed am I

Head to the Subaru thread, but that doesn't look bad. I'd probably order a used engine harness and swap it (if the chassis side isn't damaged - the bit I can see looks fine). I'd guess new plug wires, that harness, intake manifold gaskets (since I think it has to come off, or at least you get a lot more access?), injector o-rings. CAT INTERCEPTOR would know more about the harness routing and what needs to come off, he's a walking Boobaru dictionary.

e: looks like it's still available new from Subaru, but MSRP is about $400 for a new one, and the part numbers change year to year. Looks like used harnesses on eBay are going for $150-200. Go to parts.subaru.com, put in your VIN, then search for "engine wiring harness" to get the exact part number for a brand new one (it'll start with 24020), then search Google with the part number to find a reasonably priced dealer that can get one (not all dealers partner with parts.subaru.com). 08-09 automatic is 24020AE050, for example.

Comedy option: repair the existing harness. Been there done that on a different car, wish I had just replaced the harness (... or the car).

You're gonna want to get that engine bay washed down with some degreaser (or at least soaked in Simple Green, then hosed off) ASAP - that fire extinguisher powder is really nasty.

randomidiot fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Nov 27, 2022

# ? Nov 27, 2022 08:58

funeral home DJ: Apr 21, 2003; Pillbug

Sagebrush posted:

So anyway the long and short of this is: Tesla uses weasely terms like "full-self-driving" and "autopilot" because they know that the technical definitions will reveal that their cars are no better than anyone else's. Level 3 is where the car begins to truly become autonomous, and I've seen them making claims that their cars are already level 3, but they absolutely aren't as long as they have that tiny line about keeping your hands on the wheel. They're just plain old level 2, and not a very reliable implementation at that, with a bunch of extra features (summon, etc) crammed in to make it seem like they're more advanced and right on the verge of level 4 or 5.

Tesla also has the albatross of Elon Musk hanging around its neck, and Elon is currently doing everything he can to piss off members of congress including personally insulting Senator Ed Markey, who is on multiple subcommittees such as Subcommittee on Surface Transportation, Maritime, Freight, and Ports and Subcommittee on Consumer Protection, Product Safety, and Data Security.

A few calls and some pressure in the right spots and we'll see the NHTSA stating that "full self driving" Teslas should be taken off the road, insurance companies refusing to cover FSD crashes, etc. Tesla owners told they're not allowed to drive their $70k cars due to the CEO botching everything he can will go over real well in the long run!

# ? Nov 28, 2022 15:15

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

Considering this guy is one of the world's biggest tesla shills... Sounds like more stress than just driving. Being on high alert in case your car tries to Looney Tunes itself into a wall.

https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1595129298368634880?t=lRT8-9yv02gl5yZoejuFCA&s=19

# ? Nov 28, 2022 16:49

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

I saw a Tesla the other day on the highway that had a "SELF-DRIVING CAR" decal on the back. Does that imply that all Teslas in self-driving mode must carry that decal? Or has that now come to an end and I have to pass every Tesla quickly because any of them might be self-driving and could suddenly go berserker mode?

# ? Nov 28, 2022 16:53

Olympic Mathlete: Feb 25, 2011

Avoid at all costs imo.

And that thread has a lot of people telling on the tech which in itself is a beautiful thing. Here is a Tesla making GBS threads itself on a straight road.

https://twitter.com/freemarket/status/1595186568511332353?t=3yLJQ685WGg0TFGEvU5mEw&s=19

# ? Nov 28, 2022 17:05

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Olympic Mathlete posted:

Avoid at all costs imo.

And that thread has a lot of people telling on the tech which in itself is a beautiful thing. Here is a Tesla making GBS threads itself on a straight road.

https://twitter.com/freemarket/status/1595186568511332353?t=3yLJQ685WGg0TFGEvU5mEw&s=19

People just need to stop using FSD. It doesn't work and its just dangerous.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 17:08

randomidiot: May 12, 2006; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 11 years!)

Data Graham posted:

I saw a Tesla the other day on the highway that had a "SELF-DRIVING CAR" decal on the back. Does that imply that all Teslas in self-driving mode must carry that decal?

That's a FSD apologist, helpfully warning people that they're not ready to take over. tl;dr it's a sticker warning you to stay faaaaaaaar away.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 17:20

Imperador do Brasil: Nov 18, 2005; Rotor-rific

Olympic Mathlete posted:

Avoid at all costs imo.

And that thread has a lot of people telling on the tech which in itself is a beautiful thing. Here is a Tesla making GBS threads itself on a straight road.

https://twitter.com/freemarket/status/1595186568511332353?t=3yLJQ685WGg0TFGEvU5mEw&s=19

This is attempted murder. Straight up horrifying.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 18:27

funeral home DJ: Apr 21, 2003; Pillbug

American corporations have been doing the �we have a feature (our lawyers and safety experts warn you not to use it), try it today!� stuff for a long time but this seems especially egregious.

Lawn darts put people into hospitals and even killed three children, and the US had the collective wisdom to knock that poo poo off the shelves. FSD is lawn darts but it can kill an entire family and someone else�s driving down the street, and has 10 of the 11 deaths involved with �automated driving� across a 4-month period.

I like electric cars too but if you�re a Tesla owner please don�t turn that loving system on.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 18:38

Lord Ludikrous: Jun 7, 2008; Enjoy your tea...

What is the point of a car driving itself if you have to be 100% alert and ready to take over at any given time - I expect that is considerably more stressful than just driving yourself.

All these moronic solutions trying to solve a problem that would be better dealt with by implementing decent public transport.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 19:01

Uthor: Jul 9, 2006; Gummy Bear Heaven ... It's where I go when the world is too mean.

Lord Ludikrous posted:

What is the point of a car driving itself if you have to be 100% alert and ready to take over at any given time - I expect that is considerably more stressful than just driving yourself.

I remember reading about more airplane crashes cause pilot's let the computers do the work and are just zoning out when they have to take over.

Being 100% alert while doing nothing is hard to do.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 19:15

OBAMNA PHONE: Aug 7, 2002

Imperador do Brasil posted:

This is attempted murder. Straight up horrifying.

Tesla killing their own dumb customers is good so long as they don't hurt anyone else

# ? Nov 28, 2022 19:28

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Lord Ludikrous posted:

What is the point of a car driving itself if you have to be 100% alert and ready to take over at any given time - I expect that is considerably more stressful than just driving yourself.

It's just not more stressful, it's absolutely proven to be a worse solution in every way. Humans just don't work like that.

This is what is being discussed when people talk about this being the most dangerous phase of automation - when it's good enough to work most of the time but there's still that 1% that's going to gently caress up badly enough to kill you. It's not how our attention spans work.

This is all very well studied, specifically in aviation.

BraveUlysses posted:

Tesla killing their own dumb customers is good so long as they don't hurt anyone else

Except they're literally running a beta test on public roads. So they're not just killing their own customers.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 19:32

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Important Bulletin!

Humbug's Model 3 still has not killed anyone or even attempted to! Humbug also did not spring for the self-driving package because he is not insane.

# ? Nov 28, 2022 22:24

wesleywillis: Dec 30, 2016; SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

Humbug school bus: "one of the good ones".

# ? Nov 28, 2022 23:30

honda whisperer: Mar 29, 2009

I know it's been said before but remember also that going live now and being first means they either get it right or poison the well for everyone else.

Move fast and break things never weighed 4000lbs before though...

# ? Nov 29, 2022 05:09

Zil: Jun 4, 2011; Satanically Summoned Citrus

honda whisperer posted:

I know it's been said before but remember also that going live now and being first means they either get it right or poison the well for everyone else.

Move fast and break things never weighed 4000lbs before though...

Or spontaneously combusted on a hot day.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 05:11

Ether Frenzy: Dec 22, 2006; Nap Ghost

I can't even rely on right click paste to work in Discord, how the gently caress am I going to trust some garbage software from a company run by a dumbass who can't code to drive my car?
https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/z1yaoc/cant_copy_and_paste_anything_to_discord_any_more/

# ? Nov 29, 2022 05:14

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 17:06

dissss: Nov 10, 2007; I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

Zil posted:

Or spontaneously combusted on a hot day.

On that note I've seen several Tesla's and also and ID.4 go through that flooded ford that's all over YouTube at rhe moment.

Is rhe fire risk specifically from salt water?

# ? Nov 29, 2022 06:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Terrible Car Stuff - Im sorry but in this thread we measure cargo capacity in shrimp

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