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Nucleic Acids posted:The us government literally bombed strikers from their air on Blair Mountain. Deploying police and national guard units (or even the army) always represents a threat of violence. Blair Mountain was also, quite literally, over a century ago. e: also technically army aircraft were involved but weren't the ones that dropped bombs.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:13
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Discendo Vox posted:As was pointed out yesterday, the Dems don't have the votes needed for an action going beyond the tentative agreement. This is another case where having more Senate votes would make it more viable. "Whip harder" is no more of a meaningful counterfactual here than it was any of the previous times it was raised to ignore the current balance of the Senate. Except party leadership lining up behind a lovely deal that more and more are coming out against would suggest they aren’t even willing to try.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:13
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Blair Mountain was also, quite literally, over a century ago. And yet that doesn’t actually disprove the point.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:13
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tagesschau posted:Is there actually any sort of mechanism that stops the unions from voting down the deal and then ignoring any back-to-work legislation? The mechanism is that which fires a machine gun, held by members of the united states armed forces. I am wagering that the mechanism doesn't export as cleanly into canada and into classrooms, however.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:15
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tagesschau posted:Is there actually any sort of mechanism that stops the unions from voting down the deal and then ignoring any back-to-work legislation? Wildcat strikes are still an option. Which would probably lead to police and the national guard being deployed.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:16
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Discendo Vox posted:As was pointed out yesterday, the Dems don't have the votes needed for an action going beyond the tentative agreement. This is another case where having more Senate votes would make it more viable. "Whip harder" is no more of a meaningful counterfactual here than it was any of the previous times it was raised to ignore the current balance of the Senate. They could just not pass anything and let the railroad workers strike.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:16
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Blair Mountain was also, quite literally, over a century ago. Yeah, they have drones now. It might not even be bombs, but the blades used to surgically murder people in the Middle East!
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Nov 30, 2022 17:17
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Nucleic Acids posted:Except party leadership lining up behind a lovely deal that more and more are coming out against would suggest they aren’t even willing to try. There is no benefit in destroying the US food supply in the pursuit of something that anyone who can count to 50 recognizes isn't going to happen.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:17
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Blair Mountain was also, quite literally, over a century ago. If it were 90 years instead, what would change? If it were 80? 70? 30? 10? Whats the statute of limitations on a President ordering American citizens blown up for wanting rights?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:17
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Nucleic Acids posted:And yet that doesn’t actually disprove the point. I mean it quite literally does because the whole argument is "look at the last century of the army killing workers!" when the army hasn't loving killed anybody in over a century.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:17
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Discendo Vox posted:There is no benefit in destroying the US food supply in the pursuit of something that anyone who can count to 50 recognizes isn't going to happen. The benefit is workers getting what they want, and that kind of framing is directly what rail bosses and strike breakers are saying will happen. Acebuckeye13 posted:I mean it quite literally does because the whole argument is "look at the last century of the army killing workers!" when the army hasn't loving killed anybody in over a century. Does the deployment of police or armed forces if strikes breaks out represent a threat of violence or not?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:18
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DarkCrawler posted:Wasn't the Pullman strike like...literally over a century ago? Yes, and he was given several much more recent relevant examples but is still going back to the 1890s for presumably good faith reasons they have yet to articulate.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:22
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Anyone who is seriously arguing that in the year of our lord 2022 we are going to use the army or police to beat and shoot strikers back to work, is out of their mind.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:23
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I mean it quite literally does because the whole argument is "look at the last century of the army killing workers!" when the army hasn't loving killed anybody in over a century. it is not, in fact the argument is that the past century of rail strikes being shut down are the legacy of Pullman, where congress established: if we declare a rail strike illegal, and you strike anyway, we get to murder you. pointing a loaded gun at someone during negotiations makes negotiating really easy, and Joe Biden has asked congress to make that happen for him. as of yesterday, they are doing so at speed.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:23
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tagesschau posted:Is there actually any sort of mechanism that stops the unions from voting down the deal and then ignoring any back-to-work legislation? There isn't, short of like throwing them in prison then forcing them to work as prison labor I guess, which we're already set up to do on short notice but in which case I suspect every train would be non-operational within about 3 minutes. Any action taken in defiance of these would either be legal (just quitting the job) or illegal (wildcat strike in defiance of union leadership and congress). The former is an existing problem this whole thing is trying to solve, the latter is probably why you need to get every union on board, which they currently are not. I don't think we're going to see an organized state response ala the old school strikes. We're too many generations into a national level leadership that's always just been able to fall back on the reserve army of poors, but at this moment the Fed isn't doing a good enough job refilling their ranks and anyway this isn't a situation where you can protect scabs because there aren't any, and the stronger a hand you take the bigger a share of the bag you're holding if they decide to just deliver pizzas and see their kids instead. Discendo Vox posted:There is no benefit in destroying the US food supply in the pursuit of something that anyone who can count to 50 recognizes isn't going to happen. I mean if grim realism is the order of the day, the compromise deal is already one that is established as one that would cause a strike so none of this actually matters if that's the highest one can hope for.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:24
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Discendo Vox posted:There is no benefit in destroying the US food supply in the pursuit of something that anyone who can count to 50 recognizes isn't going to happen. I don’t think that would happen and if you do you need to provide evidence. Alternately, if not giving the workers the leave would potentially destroy the food supply, why are they fighting so hard to not give the workers that to save the food supply?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:25
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Nucleic Acids posted:The benefit is workers getting what they want, and that kind of framing is directly what rail bosses and strike breakers are saying will happen. It is in fact what will happen, and is set to happen earlier than the actual strike date for reasons I already articulated. The rail system is critical infrastructure and should be at least more tightly regulated if not nationalized- the rail companies are able to leverage the impact of a strike on other industries and infrastructure, including the food supply, to drive Congressional intervention, as they have the last several times the possibility of a strike has been raised. The Dems have 50 votes in the Senate, total. They do not have the capacity to push a bigger change to the agreement, let alone to nationalize the rail system. They, and you, know this, just as they, and everyone else involved, including the unions, know how disastrous a strike would be. Epic High Five posted:I mean if grim realism is the order of the day, the compromise deal is already one that is established as one that would cause a strike so none of this actually matters if that's the highest one can hope for. There have been many such threatened strikes leading to Congressional intervention, usually in the form of either a binding mediation board or adopted recommendation. These do in fact prevent the strikes from occurring, or end the strikes when they have occurred. This is, again, something that everyone involved, including the unions, are aware of. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 17:26
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drat, the US food supply is at risk? We should crush the railroad companies to eliminate this threat to national security, then
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Nov 30, 2022 17:27
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projecthalaxy posted:If it were 90 years instead, what would change? I don't know how to tell you this, but "things were bad in the past" and "things suck less now" are two ideas that can co-exist at the same time.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:32
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Discendo Vox posted:It is in fact what will happen, and is set to happen earlier than the actual strike date for reasons I already articulated. The rail system is critical infrastructure and should be at least more tightly regulated if not nationalized- the rail companies are able to leverage the impact of a strike on other industries and infrastructure, including the food supply, to drive Congressional intervention, as they have the last several times the possibility of a strike has been raised. What is the actual evidence the food supply “would be destroyed” if workers strike to get the bare minimum? Because I also do not buy your framing of them only having 50 votes when that means they still control the senate
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Nov 30, 2022 17:33
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Nucleic Acids posted:What is the actual evidence the food supply “would be destroyed” if workers strike to get the bare minimum? Because I also do not buy your framing of them only having 50 votes when that means they still control the senate you do realize that food does not magically appear in the grocery store
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Nov 30, 2022 17:33
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Gerund posted:The mechanism is that which fires a machine gun, held by members of the united states armed forces. I guess they can stick the corpses of the workers back into the trains, but unless something has changed recently, corpses can't drive, maintain, and repair trains. In addition, I also don't think that quitting your job because the government is killing your co-workers carries a penalty of summary execution. So killing the workers seems like it would also be counterproductive to the goal of "keeping the trains moving."
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Nov 30, 2022 17:34
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Acebuckeye13 posted:you do realize that food does not magically appear in the grocery store And yet that does not mean strikes would cause our food infrastructure “to be destroyed.”
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Nov 30, 2022 17:35
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Twincityhacker posted:I don't know how to tell you this, but "things were bad in the past" and "things suck less now" are two ideas that can co-exist at the same time. I would say things suck pretty bad right now if you’re working class. It’s just different kinds of suck. And you can still get shot for protesting, or killed by the cops for whatever reason, and most of the time they get away with it. So really what we’re waiting for is labor militancy to get to a point where they start shooting again. Hell, a striker in my area was hit by a driver (who also brandished a pistol) last night. Is the assertion cops wouldn’t shoot civilians, that they wouldn’t shoot strikers, or just that they won’t shoot them yet? Because the last one is the only one I agree with. That train will get here at some point.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:35
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selec posted:Because the last one is the only one I agree with. That train will get here at some point. Not if they strike it won't. 
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Nov 30, 2022 17:37
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Nucleic Acids posted:What is the actual evidence the food supply “would be destroyed” if workers strike to get the bare minimum? We've discussed this earlier- the rail system moves both direct ag commodities and indirect supplies (like fertilizer). The entire system is still in the process of recovery from covid disruptions, which would be less disruptive domestically than a full stop of the rail system. This is why the food industry is one of the sectors that serves as a leverage point in congressional communications on this issue. Nucleic Acids posted:Because I also do not buy your framing of them only having 50 votes when that means they still control the senate Like the last hundred times this argument has been made, "they" are not a monolith or hivemind that can force all of their members to vote for something. Those 50 votes include people like Manchin and Sinema. As I already said, and as others have said many times, this is why the actual margin in the Senate matters.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:38
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American police absolutely have been escalating their violence to the point of being chomping at the bit to open fire on a crowd of acceptable targets- and strikers are probably exactly what they've been primed for. They're probably already designing the challenge coins for gunning them down.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:39
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Gerund posted:The mechanism is that which fires a machine gun, held by members of the united states armed forces. This is obviously a non-serious answer, but I'll bite. Threatening workers with deadly force is going to make some people quit, and there won't be enough workers to run the trains. Actually using deadly force also means there won't be enough workers to run the trains. As above, it's the same as with any other set of hard-to-replace employees; if you're threatening to do something that would very clearly make things worse from your perspective, you're clearly bluffing. Nucleic Acids posted:Wildcat strikes are still an option. Which would probably lead to police and the national guard being deployed. Unless they know how to run the trains, they're not going to be that useful.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:42
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Discendo Vox posted:We've discussed this earlier- the rail system moves both direct ag commodities and indirect supplies (like fertilizer). The entire system is still in the process of recovery from covid disruptions, which would be less disruptive domestically than a full stop of the rail system. This is why the food industry is one of the sectors that serves as a leverage point in congressional communications on this issue. This basically just means that the Democrats have been bought out by rail bosses and other corporate interests if they aren't willing to do the bare minimum to even try to get the unions the basic amount they're asking for.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:43
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tagesschau posted:This is obviously a non-serious answer, but I'll bite. Threatening workers with deadly force is going to make some people quit, and there won't be enough workers to run the trains. Actually using deadly force also means there won't be enough workers to run the trains. As above, it's the same as with any other set of hard-to-replace employees; if you're threatening to do something that would very clearly make things worse from your perspective, you're clearly bluffing. Lets walk it out: will there be enough workers to run the most critical trains, prioritized trains, necessary-for-national-defense trains? Those are much easier to define (and defend the choice of) rather than rooms full of Canadian children with Canadian parents who would dislike knowing their kids were called "Canada's most worthless pupils".
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Nov 30, 2022 17:48
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Nucleic Acids posted:This basically just means that the Democrats have been bought out by rail bosses and other corporate interests if they aren't willing to do the bare minimum to even try to get the unions the basic amount they're asking for. Again, "the democrats" aren't a unit, and the pressure is coming from every single sector of the country that uses the rail system, directly or indirectly. This doesn't require bribery, it requires understanding causality and the ability to count to 50.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:50
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Discendo Vox posted:As was pointed out yesterday, the Dems don't have the votes needed for an action going beyond the tentative agreement. This is another case where having more Senate votes would make it more viable. "Whip harder" is no more of a meaningful counterfactual here than it was any of the previous times it was raised to ignore the current balance of the Senate. Vox, I have one question for you, and I'm going to humbly request that you answer with a simple, unconditioned "Yes" or "No": Would you support a wildcat strike if this legislation forcing a contract on the railworkers goes through?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:50
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, "the democrats" aren't a unit, and the pressure is coming from every single sector of the country that uses the rail system, directly or indirectly. This doesn't require bribery, it requires understanding causality and the ability to count to 50. You keep saying they aren't a unit, but what this shows is that they just aren't a political party and don't care about their stated beliefs.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:51
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Lib and let die posted:Vox, I have one question for you, and I'm going to humbly request that you answer with a simple, unconditioned "Yes" or "No": I have no idea what the gently caress that would look like, or what I would be doing to "support" it. I'm not planning to break a picket line at a freight yard. Nucleic Acids posted:You keep saying they aren't a unit, but what this shows is that they just aren't a political party and don't care about their stated beliefs. Political parties are not unitary groups. The fact that there is variance in positions within a political party is part of what allows it to function at all; it does not mean that "they" (again with the categorical) don't care about "their" stated beliefs.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:52
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selec posted:I would say things suck pretty bad right now if you’re working class. It’s just different kinds of suck. And you can still get shot for protesting, or killed by the cops for whatever reason, and most of the time they get away with it. We're gonna go with a non-labor example for a quick second. Remember the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020? Remember how while plenty of Bad poo poo happened to protesters and how leadership were murdered, no cop machinegunned down the crowd and the facists that did kill people were punished? Why the gently caress do you think that "cops are gonna machinegun down railway strikers" is going to happen?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:53
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Nucleic Acids posted:You keep saying they aren't a unit, but what this shows is that they just aren't a political party and don't care about their stated beliefs. My man everyone posting in this thread is some variety of left of center and if you tried to get everyone to order a loving pizza it would end with someone getting strangled with their own entrails. Parties in the US have never and will never be in 100% lockstep on every issue.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:53
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Discendo Vox posted:I have no idea what the gently caress that would look like, or what I would be doing to "support" it. I'm not planning to break a picket line at a freight yard. Have you literally never donated food, or money to a strike fund? Have you never written a rep to tell them to support the workers?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:53
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Rigel posted:Anyone who is seriously arguing that in the year of our lord 2022 we are going to use the army or police to beat and shoot strikers back to work, is out of their mind.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:55
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Discendo Vox posted:I have no idea what the gently caress that would look like, or what I would be doing to "support" it. I'm not planning to break a picket line at a freight yard. You aren't this dense, Vox. Strike funds will need to be paid into, and other working-class people outside of the rail industry will be needed on the picket lines to show cross-profession, cross-political-affiliation support - can striking union workers count on you to contribute to a strike fund or to hold the line with then, yes or no?
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Nov 30, 2022 17:55
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Quick clarification from earlier, apparently we are talking about zero vs 7. Management wanted 0, labor wanted 4 and to also resolve another complicated issue regarding being penalized for emergencies. Bernie's solution basically says "well we aren't going to resolve that complicated issue here, but how about we just bump it up to 7 and call it good" and the unions seem to be saying that would be fine too. Apparently the original plan was to ram it through with zero, with Pelosi even going so far as to declare that there would be no amendments. https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/pro-labor-lawmakers-move-to-add-sick-days-to-railway-deal/ Bernie got pissed off and apparently he would have the ability to delay a vote in the Senate all by himself past the date when a strike would begin, so if you want to avert a strike, you have to get everyone to at least agree not to delay the vote while voting no. Bernie is insisting that he wont back down. From there, Pelosi caved and said there would be a vote on the Bernie amendment. Then some Republicans, perhaps sensing an opportunity to benefit from something they might end up having to vote for anyway, are trying to get to the left of Biden on this. We have Cornyn publicly saying there will be significant GOP support for Bernie's amendment, and 3 others who you wouldn't expect (Rubio on twitter, Hawley, and Cruz) have come out at least hinting that they'll vote for the 7 days. quote:With Sanders vowing to fight for his amendment in the Senate, there are indications that it is possible that there may be enough Republican support for adding the paid sick leave to prevent a filibuster in that chamber. Sens Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz have both said they may back the Sanders amendment.
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Nov 30, 2022 17:56
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