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Arist posted:All this is basically true but I'd honestly say that (P4) Adachi telling the Investigation Team he only became a police officer so he could carry a gun is more anti-cop than most of P5 Hard disagree. Persona 5 pretty much says ACAB (never mind that one idiot on your team). P4 has the idea that there are a few rotten apples but under normal circumstances the rest can and will deal with them.
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Nov 30, 2022 11:23
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Persona 4 is a murder mystery, you sort of have to accept certain genre things when you're playing it. Like, it would be very difficult to have one of those stories without the police or some authority figures involved without it needing to comment on the institution of policing, because it's not -about- that. Persona 5's rubric is a different standard, and different genre. Police as an institution are on trial in the main text of the game. When a game sets the expectations and then fucks them up that's the game's flaw.
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Nov 30, 2022 12:13
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Persona 5 is the story of what happens when you take Rage Against the Machine far too seriously
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Nov 30, 2022 12:16
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Police would still exist under communism so Makoto wanting to join up with her eyes wide open about how hosed the system is and a demonstrated ability not to succumb to the kinds of social pressures that turn good people into bad cops seems like a good thing. Worst case scenario she realizes you can't actually fight the system from within and becomes Serpico or something after exposing a ton of corruption.
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Nov 30, 2022 14:08
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Makoto drops an envelope with "4 THE MARE" in front of the Diet building.
Pwnstar fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 15:15
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while I do agree that p5s plot and themes are drastically opposed and that's why it suffers (as opposed to P4, where they all work together) to me the worst part of the game is the repetitiveness of the writing. seriously, 40% of the dialogue is repeating something you already heard. I dunno how they didnt have an editor to cut this poo poo down. It also takes me out of the world that every single time you do a palace, you get 10 texts "do you think it worked?????" I wish they had an option just to skip that stuff at the beginning of the game. I really feel talked down to in a way I didn't in p4 or especially p3. and for people saying "that's anime or JRPG style writing" they do have a proclivity towards repetitiveness but I can't remember another example as bad as this. I love jrpgs and anime as well.
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Nov 30, 2022 18:14
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:Police would still exist under communism so Makoto wanting to join up with her eyes wide open about how hosed the system is and a demonstrated ability not to succumb to the kinds of social pressures that turn good people into bad cops seems like a good thing. Worst case scenario she realizes you can't actually fight the system from within and becomes Serpico or something after exposing a ton of corruption. Makoto recruits the now extremely cynical Chie, tired of wallowing at the corrupt pig trough. Together, they fight crime.
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Nov 30, 2022 18:14
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Mirello posted:while I do agree that p5s plot and themes are drastically opposed and that's why it suffers (as opposed to P4, where they all work together) to me the worst part of the game is the repetitiveness of the writing. seriously, 40% of the dialogue is repeating something you already heard. I dunno how they didnt have an editor to cut this poo poo down. It also takes me out of the world that every single time you do a palace, you get 10 texts "do you think it worked?????" I wish they had an option just to skip that stuff at the beginning of the game. I really feel talked down to in a way I didn't in p4 or especially p3. no trust me other anime and jrpgs are exactly as bad as P5, usually worse i think it stands out in P5 more because there's so much regularity to it. every single day with this poo poo, Ryuji. YES I THINK IT WORKED LET'S JUST GO TO SCHOOL. STOP TEXTING ME!!!!
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Nov 30, 2022 18:31
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SubG posted:The pre-release tagline was "You are a slave. Want emancipation?" in retrospect that tagline with the 4 chairs/shackles was so loving hardcore and it's funny to consider such a poppy school/date/friendsim had that kind of preview graphic also count me in as a person who wished they had an earlier save to undo the Makoto relationship because lol at that "I want to be a COP" confession. At that moment I knew I should have just waited for Kasumi lol
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Nov 30, 2022 18:42
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Mirello posted:while I do agree that p5s plot and themes are drastically opposed and that's why it suffers (as opposed to P4, where they all work together) to me the worst part of the game is the repetitiveness of the writing. seriously, 40% of the dialogue is repeating something you already heard. I dunno how they didnt have an editor to cut this poo poo down. It also takes me out of the world that every single time you do a palace, you get 10 texts "do you think it worked?????" I wish they had an option just to skip that stuff at the beginning of the game. I really feel talked down to in a way I didn't in p4 or especially p3. Yeah the games have a difficult time navigating the contradictory goals of letting the player have some some freedom in how they set their agenda vs preserving the coherence and short-term interest of the main storyline. Futaba's weeks-long nap is a particularly dire low point but it's also reflected in how disjointed party members S-Links feel from the main plot. I'd generally be in favor of a bit more railroading (with boss battles on set days for example) but it's a matter of taste, some players really like making their own decisions on what to do each day, who to visit, etc.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:10
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I really would prefer if they did the thing for the Casino where they force you to wait until the last moment to end the palace and fight the boss for every palace. It does kind of run into issues, realistically you would want to save the kidnapped people/stop the evil people as soon as possible, but when the alternative is recovery periods that change in length depending on when you beat the boss and constant hand wringing over whether the thing you've done four times by now will work this time I think it'd be an improvement. Anyway the issue isn't that Makoto wants to be a cop it's that Makoto wants to be a cop after her older sister stops participating in that system because it sucks and was corrupting her.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:20
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Hellioning posted:Anyway the issue isn't that Makoto wants to be a cop it's that Makoto wants to be a cop after her older sister stops participating in that system because it sucks and was corrupting her. I give it to the end of her freshman year of college before Makoto decides what she really wants is a physical education degree.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:23
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NikkolasKing posted:I was joking earlier about SMTIV but, to be entiely honest, SMT is in fact a lot more subversive and rebellious than Persona ever has been, even the older games. It's just a byproduct of having real choice. It's why I love WRPGs. I think it's less of just a matter of "having choice" but more of just a difference between the setting of the two series and the way they operate. SMT games usually take place after The World As We Know It has already ended and often in a state of anarchy so both the game's creators and the player character have a blank slate to dramatically reshape the world. Also with the exception of a couple of direct sequels like SMT2, SMT4A each game is As for Persona games on the other hand, a big part of the whole conceit of the series is that the games take place in our world as we know it, usually in a normal high school etc. And there's always been some level of continuity across the games with recurring characters and cameos and such plus Atlus's love of milking them for endless spinoffs and crossover games. And thematically they are more concerned with inner psychology and some journey of personal growth than big world-changing events. So they kind of have to keep a setting which remains "just the real world" at the end of the day so the events of the games always confine a lot of the action to stuff like parallel dimensions and shadowy groups operating unknown to the public. When things do spill out into the real world at large, everyone but the main characters always magically forgets that anything happened by the end of the game. To the point where in Persona 2 IS they literally reboot the whole universe so the events of the game never happened and even the main characters temporarily forgot about it. It's kind of a necessary conceit for the games' setting, Persona 1-4 all did it so Persona 5 was always going to be like that in the end. If the characters did radically transform society it would push the setting of the series out of "the real world as we know it". Yeah of course the overall themes of rebellion and the marketing during the years-long wait mean that a lot of people will see it as a lame cop-out but realistically given the way the setting/series works it was never going to be any other way. precision posted:no trust me other anime and jrpgs are exactly as bad as P5, usually worse It's very clearly just an if/then statement thing, if the player hasn't finished the Palace late in the month then the game has to nag them every day to finish it before the deadline so they don't get a Game Over, if they did finish then do some other message instead, the lame "did it work this time??" filler. When really they should have just programmed it to say nothing at all if you already did the palace. I never played Royal and I suppose they did nothing to cut down on any of this?
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Nov 30, 2022 19:28
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I think the reason for that stuff is just to keep the player involved in the main plot while they spend three weeks loving around. It definitely should have been done better, though.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:29
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To be fair to Makoto, she doesn't want to become just a normal cop or whatever. She wants to become the boss of all the cops who will surely respect a woman in charge who is trying to reform the system and clean up corruption.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:35
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Hellioning posted:I really would prefer if they did the thing for the Casino where they force you to wait until the last moment to end the palace and fight the boss for every palace. It does kind of run into issues, realistically you would want to save the kidnapped people/stop the evil people as soon as possible, but when the alternative is recovery periods that change in length depending on when you beat the boss and constant hand wringing over whether the thing you've done four times by now will work this time I think it'd be an improvement. The easy narrative fix would be to make it so the calling card only works if it's delivered at the moment when the target is 100% certain of their victory, and it's the shock of being challenged at their highest that forces their treasure to materialize. So Kamoshida can only be given his card on the eve of Joker and Ryuji's expulsion, Madarame on the eve of his exhibit wrapping up and him planing to file suit against the group the next day, etc. Futaba's whole situation is weird so you could easily handwave it as she has to hit her lowest point instead. This means the calling card always has to go out on the last day, and it's just the player's job to secure the treasure route some time prior. Hellioning posted:Anyway the issue isn't that Makoto wants to be a cop it's that Makoto wants to be a cop after her older sister stops participating in that system because it sucks and was corrupting her. She still wants to be a cop in strikers after a career cop lays out in no uncertain terms for her how much it sucks and how little good she'll actually be able to do for others. Even with the context of her dad the cop thing is a huge blindspot for Makoto and the one area where she goes totally braindead and refuses to rationalize through any of the nastier implications of her dream.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:37
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Police will always exist so if you really think it's so implausible that someone could change them for the better that even someone who punched god in the face would have no hope (and is in fact bad for even wanting to), you've basically taken the black pill and become a doomer.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:46
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:Police will always exist so if you really think it's so implausible that someone could change them for the better that even someone who punched god in the face would have no hope (and is in fact bad for even wanting to), you've basically taken the black pill and become a doomer. lol, the d-word Anyway it's one thing to be part of an institution under a totally different hypothetical society and another thing entirely to enter it under its current condition. Especially if said institution is one of the pillars that keep in place the very same oppression you wish to get rid of.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:55
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:Police will always exist so if you really think it's so implausible that someone could change them for the better that even someone who punched god in the face would have no hope (and is in fact bad for even wanting to), you've basically taken the black pill and become a doomer. Police are only a few hundred years old so I'm not sure they're intrinsic to civilisation.
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Nov 30, 2022 20:01
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HootTheOwl posted:Police are only a few hundred years old so I'm not sure they're intrinsic to civilisation. That's not true, but okay since I can't imagine the distant future I'll amend it to they aren't going anywhere in our lifetimes.
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Nov 30, 2022 20:06
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Most of the palaces other than maybe the Space one and of course the Casino could get resolved instantly and then you could get to unwind and relax for the remainder of the time period while the gang considers their next moves. There's no real narrative reason why they couldn't have done that.
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Nov 30, 2022 20:14
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Is knowing whodunnit likely to ruin my enjoyment of 4 very much?
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Nov 30, 2022 20:15
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:That's not true, but okay since I can't imagine the distant future I'll amend it to they aren't going anywhere in our lifetimes. You're conflating all law enforcement with the police
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Nov 30, 2022 20:15
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:Is knowing whodunnit likely to ruin my enjoyment of 4 very much? Not really, most fans of this game like it for the parts that have nothing to do with the main plot, and the foreshadowing regarding the killer is enjoyable in its own right.
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Nov 30, 2022 20:20
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Finally beat Persona 5 Royal, which is the first title I've played in the series. Overall, I really enjoyed it. Great music. Writing was okay, definitely a few unnecessarily uncomfortable and unnecessary parts (aside from the obvious gay caricatures, I'm sick of violence against women being used as an inciting incident/part of a heroic backstory/an attention grabber/a stakes increaser). I S-linked with Makoto because, aside from the chief of police thing, is a fairly classic rom-com pairing and storyline. Also, considering her character arc, her sister's career choice (that is, career change at the end of Royal) and Joker's chaotic good to her lawful good, and her history with the Phantom Thieves, it's fine. I almost completely ignored Yusuke, only getting him to level 2 link (whoops). Frustratingly got a few of the social links to 8 or 9, and, had I known a few "shortcuts" existed (e.g. massages, laundry, the speed reading book, efficient ways of gaining relationship points, etc) and avoided wasting some time here and there on stuff/people whose abilities really suck (Devil Tarot), and etc., I could have easily maxed everyone. Luckily, I saw enough complaints/confusion about the "Royal" part that I maxed out Haruki, at least. Speaking of the Royal part, it's amazing how quickly I did an 180 on a character. Dark Akechi is hilarious and edgy, and I think would have added a nice dimension/different perspective if he'd appeared earlier in the game. The music in the final palace immediately brings to mine the opening to, like medical TV shows like ER. Seems like I lucked out playing this version of the game, though.
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Nov 30, 2022 20:46
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Congrats! Glad you enjoyed it 
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Nov 30, 2022 21:27
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Prowler posted:Haruki Going to assume this was deliberate heh
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Nov 30, 2022 21:35
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One question I've been having as I do this Royal playthrough - I've noticed some things hinting at the Kasumi/Sumire situation that I missed during my first playthrough due to not predicting the twist in question. One thing I'm not sure how to explain (or if it's even meant to imply anything) is Kasumi's frequent phone problems. My best guess is that they're texts/calls that somehow involve her actually being Sumire, which her "cognitive rewrite" force her to forget or be oblivious to, leading her to think her phone was just acting up (since IIRC her parents and coach are aware that she's actually Sumire - it's particularly obvious with the coach, since they keep telling her to "figure out who she is") Lord_Magmar posted:He literally spends the entire time saying I'm irredeemable and an rear end in a top hat, actually. My read on Akechi was that, if pressed (or in the space of his own mind) he'd probably acknowledge that the stuff he did was bad/stupid, or at least that he wouldn't do it again if given the choice. But he also believes strongly in being "true to himself" and doesn't want other people to see him as something he isn't (which, regardless of what his current feelings are, is still a guy who murdered a ton of people. There's probably also some element of "Joker is absolutely the sort of guy who would irrationally forgive me (and maybe even allow Maruki to win to keep me alive) if I showed even the slightest remorse, so I can't let him fall into that mindset." I could be off-base with this, since I can't remember the third semester content that clearly. edit: Part of the reason why I don't think he's completely without remorse is that he gets too angry and worked up during your fight with him in Shido's Palace. Akechi is basically angry because he realizes on some level that he could have reached out and followed a path more similar to Joker. If he was truly without remorse/regret, he wouldn't be so upset. It's not just about him losing/dying, since we see in the 3rd semester content that he's okay with that. Sapozhnik posted:Took the opportunity to start a second playthrough on PC on Merciless and it feels pretty well tuned. I had to make several attempts at the first palace boss and even had to go back and grind a bit in the palace but I think that's because I was sneaking past the red shadows instead of fighting them. You are very clearly supposed to get everyone to level 11 and gain all the skills that unlock with it but once that's in hand it went pretty smoothly. Would be nice if there was a list of required levels for each boss somewhere. I've generally found that the people who said Merciless is easier than Hard are a bit wrong. While weaknesses do more damage, most difficult enemies don't have weaknesses (and enemies with weaknesses were always pretty easy, even on Hard). So in the end it's sort of like "Hard, but you do a bit less damage and have to be more careful about compensating for your own elemental weaknesses." It at least makes this playthrough a *bit* different from my original Royal playthrough (plus the uncapped framerate, which was the main reason I'm doing this - 120fps looks very nice). Mailer posted:I kinda wanted to hold off on it for a few days until I'm truly finished with the game but this new ending segment feels a little hamfisted. Like I'd get it if it was Sumire - a young girl so tormented that she went down the weirdest possible path - would be naive enough to think as long as she can just fix this one thing the world would be perfect and that should apply to everyone. Maruki doesn't get a pass on this. In his years of research he never once stopped to think about the What If God Answered Every Wish problem? He never considered what would happen when life poo poo on someone more than once? Happiness for two people meaning conflicting things? He got some random high school kid to consult with him but just skipped all the thinking aside from that? The main thing that bugs me about the Maruki stuff is that, given the power displayed, he could do a bunch of actually meaningful stuff (if he can revive people, he can do something like make sure everyone has their material needs met). But homeless people still exist in his new world. It seems like he just (mostly) makes people happy in their current situations...except those he doesn't and outright revives their dead loved ones for. It's very confusing and inconsistent. I think the best way to interpret it is that Maruki is obviously not doing this in a remotely rational way, but instead in a way that is twisted by his own experiences/desires (which is kind of evidenced by him having a Palace in the first place). He's fully invested in this particular form of cognitive manipulation because he basically erased himself from his fiance's mind with it (and, as a result, has a sunk cost mentality where he *needs* to believe that this is good, to justify the personal cost it had for him). goethe.cx posted:Haru in the third semester is particularly sad, since in the altered reality her father is not only still alive, but is the caring and attentive dad he never was to her. It's very Also Futaba since it also involve Sojiro and her mom being able to both be parents to her. And Morgana, who arguably has the most to lose. Being a cat who can only communicate with <10 people is pretty bad (to the extent that it's kind of hard to imagine how his life would go in the distant future). Vargs posted:Started playing Strikers and while I'm not sure if the gameplay style is for me, it's hard not to get pumped when that Last Surprise remix is playing. The Strikers themes are all great - a bit better than the original game's IMO Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 22:48
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They really should have made Morgana less awful in royal I'm a cat person but I have limits
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Dec 1, 2022 00:06
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precision posted:They really should have made Morgana less awful in royal I can't believe they didn't fix the whole beginning of harus palace situation. That has to be the universally agreed lowest point of the game and they didn't change it at all. Also only letting yoshizawa join your party way later than it makes sense because they didn't want to have to redo scenes from the base game. It sucks because I think she's cool and suffers from haru syndrome (too little time in the base game)
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Dec 1, 2022 00:16
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Item Getter posted:I think it's less of just a matter of "having choice" but more of just a difference between the setting of the two series and the way they operate. SMT games usually take place after The World As We Know It has already ended and often in a state of anarchy so both the game's creators and the player character have a blank slate to dramatically reshape the world. Also with the exception of a couple of direct sequels like SMT2, SMT4A each game is True, this is probably a better and more accurate assessment of things. I guess I've just had "how choice in a game allows you to make your own message" on my mind lately.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:19
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I feel like something bigger was supposed to be up with the phone but it got cut in a rewrite. Like it's not her phone, it's damaged because its original owner was carrying it when hit by a car, and she didn't want to give up this last bit of Kasumi
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Dec 1, 2022 00:21
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Mirello posted:Also only letting yoshizawa join your party way later than it makes sense because they didn't want to have to redo scenes from the base game. It sucks because I think she's cool and suffers from haru syndrome (too little time in the base game) It's also a bit of a balance issue. The developers probably did not want to balance the original palaces around the addition of Yoshizawa being in your party.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:30
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Ytlaya posted:I've generally found that the people who said Merciless is easier than Hard are a bit wrong. You're forgetting Technicals. They are also boosted in Merciless and deal way more damage than weaknesses (though don't always let you Baton Pass... until you play enough pool). Shadows not having a weakness is absolutely irrelevant.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:35
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Ytlaya posted:I've generally found that the people who said Merciless is easier than Hard are a bit wrong. Even the speedrunners say that Merciless is easier than Normal. Given Merciless's unique modifiers, its difficulty mainly stems from not knowing the battle mechanics or your enemies well.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:39
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Lotus Aura posted:You're forgetting Technicals. They are also boosted in Merciless and deal way more damage than weaknesses (though don't always let you Baton Pass... until you play enough pool). Shadows not having a weakness is absolutely irrelevant. wtf.... pool boosts technicals!?!?!? lol, i'm entering sae's palace and had no idea.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:42
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I just kinda wish that Royal did the same thing Strikers does with Zenkichi and dropped Yoshizawa and Akechi into your party in NG+ from the get-go and just not acknowledging it in the story, as a way to let you get more time to gently caress around with them in combat as another NG+ reward. I know this is trivially easy to do anyway with some save hacking, but still.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:45
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Wow I don't remember Ybaiehlaiwehraweuawe being so easy in P5.
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Dec 1, 2022 01:11
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precision posted:They really should have made Morgana less awful in royal They did. Morgana only tells you to go to bed about three or four times now, and I believe they got rid of some of the other irritating things he does. But that's just Morgana being annoying, not Morgana being terrible. Lotus Aura posted:You're forgetting Technicals. They are also boosted in Merciless and deal way more damage than weaknesses (though don't always let you Baton Pass... until you play enough pool). Shadows not having a weakness is absolutely irrelevant. On the other hand you can't set up Technicals for bosses so you are absolutely taking an almost 25% damage penalty in the boss fights. And I don't think they do way more damage until you play enough pool. And of course Speedrunners find Merciless easier. The fights are faster because you're doing overall 195% damage when hitting a target with a weakness/technical and getting a little more XP and loot out of them. Speedrunners always take glass canon choices where possible.
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Dec 1, 2022 01:13
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| # ? May 23, 2024 12:02 |
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It would have been at least interesting if the ryuji-morgana fight was actually a ruse to trick akechi in their long plan or something like that, so the fact that it comes out of nowhere at that time and seems so stupid is actually just a joke on how bad they are at acting or whatever. Plus having Akechi in on more than one palace would have been an interesting way of giving more of a misdirect to the player about his long-term viability as a party member, etc.
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Dec 1, 2022 01:17
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