(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Dec 7, 2022 03:44
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| # ? May 27, 2024 19:22 |
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If imperialism is the last stage of capitalism, maybe fascism is a stage of imperialism?
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Dec 7, 2022 11:21
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no one knows what the last stage of capitalism is becasue capitalism still exists
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Dec 7, 2022 11:36
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I dunno but I bet they're gonna do something bad when it becomes expensive to pay for having so many cops.
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Dec 7, 2022 11:39
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Fascism seems like a terminal stage, a death spiral.
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Dec 7, 2022 13:29
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Fascism is just Capital with the mask off. The mask needs to come off for a short time to accomplish the “distasteful” tasks like redistributing resources to your volk to rebuild material conditions and increase popular support without touching the resources of the wealthy. As a side benefit they get to up work camps for disruptive elements like anyone asking for better rights without having to bother with the pesky legislative rights (paused temporarily to be reinstated later) It allows the liberals and capitalists to maintain plausible deniability and focus every shred of responsibility on the individual. The tree hiding the forest is the perfect state for liberals when hard decisions need to be taken to maintain the end of history™️ “wowzers, he was such a bad guy we had no idea!!! we thought we could control him, good thing we got rid of him before he could get any of us too!! he was a madman!!  ”
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Dec 7, 2022 14:07
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imo the best example to use for fascism as a state of capitalism isn't Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany, it's Pinochet's Chile. Capital was threatened by the left winning through the institutions of bourgeois democracy, so a fascist seized power, spent two decades repressing and killing the left, solidified capital's stranglehold on political and economic power, and was then replaced by a return to bourgeois democracy with lingering institutions so sticky that they still haven't been able to get rid of them thirty years later. Fascism doesn't have to be an end-state or a failure condition or an ultimate stage of capitalism, it can serve as a temporary way for capital to accomplish goals that liberal democrats would balk at but will ultimately accept when presented as faits accomplis.
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Dec 7, 2022 14:18
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vyelkin posted:imo the best example to use for fascism as a state of capitalism isn't Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany, it's Pinochet's Chile. Capital was threatened by the left winning through the institutions of bourgeois democracy, so a fascist seized power, spent two decades repressing and killing the left, solidified capital's stranglehold on political and economic power, and was then replaced by a return to bourgeois democracy with lingering institutions so sticky that they still haven't been able to get rid of them thirty years later. Fascism doesn't have to be an end-state or a failure condition or an ultimate stage of capitalism, it can serve as a temporary way for capital to accomplish goals that liberal democrats would balk at but will ultimately accept when presented as faits accomplis. its this
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Dec 7, 2022 14:37
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vyelkin posted:imo the best example to use for fascism as a state of capitalism isn't Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany, it's Pinochet's Chile. Capital was threatened by the left winning through the institutions of bourgeois democracy, so a fascist seized power, spent two decades repressing and killing the left, solidified capital's stranglehold on political and economic power, and was then replaced by a return to bourgeois democracy with lingering institutions so sticky that they still haven't been able to get rid of them thirty years later. Fascism doesn't have to be an end-state or a failure condition or an ultimate stage of capitalism, it can serve as a temporary way for capital to accomplish goals that liberal democrats would balk at but will ultimately accept when presented as faits accomplis. put it more eloquently than I did
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Dec 7, 2022 14:49
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vyelkin posted:imo the best example to use for fascism as a state of capitalism isn't Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany, it's Pinochet's Chile. Capital was threatened by the left winning through the institutions of bourgeois democracy, so a fascist seized power, spent two decades repressing and killing the left, solidified capital's stranglehold on political and economic power, and was then replaced by a return to bourgeois democracy with lingering institutions so sticky that they still haven't been able to get rid of them thirty years later. Fascism doesn't have to be an end-state or a failure condition or an ultimate stage of capitalism, it can serve as a temporary way for capital to accomplish goals that liberal democrats would balk at but will ultimately accept when presented as faits accomplis. this is a Good Post, thank you
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Dec 7, 2022 15:49
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vyelkin posted:imo the best example to use for fascism as a state of capitalism isn't Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany, it's Pinochet's Chile. Capital was threatened by the left winning through the institutions of bourgeois democracy, so a fascist seized power, spent two decades repressing and killing the left, solidified capital's stranglehold on political and economic power, and was then replaced by a return to bourgeois democracy with lingering institutions so sticky that they still haven't been able to get rid of them thirty years later. Fascism doesn't have to be an end-state or a failure condition or an ultimate stage of capitalism, it can serve as a temporary way for capital to accomplish goals that liberal democrats would balk at but will ultimately accept when presented as faits accomplis. Trotsky was a piece of poo poo but I do agree with his analysis that fascism is what capitalism (liberalism) becomes when it can no longer exploit and rule the masses by consent through the use of democratic institutions. Basically what you said
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Dec 7, 2022 19:13
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https://twitter.com/LadyIzdihar/status/1600203142851072001?cxt=HHwWgsDQofeRiLUsAAAA
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Dec 7, 2022 20:08
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But given Chile wasn't exactly a world power, what does it mean if the central power of the world has to use fascism to stay afloat? I'd imagine this screws the pooch for other regimes, since you can't really fascism well if bigger fascists are then immediately sucking up what you were trying to use to stabilize yourself.
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Dec 7, 2022 22:44
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thechosenone posted:But given Chile wasn't exactly a world power, what does it mean if the central power of the world has to use fascism to stay afloat? I'd imagine this screws the pooch for other regimes, since you can't really fascism well if bigger fascists are then immediately sucking up what you were trying to use to stabilize yourself. not if the central power exports the tools and training necessary to rule through fear and brutality
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Dec 7, 2022 22:57
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AnimeIsTrash posted:https://twitter.com/LadyIzdihar/status/1600203142851072001?cxt=HHwWgsDQofeRiLUsAAAA I might have asked this before, but as big of a name as Rosa Luxemburg is in the history of Marxism, she doesn't seem to have an extant tendency that bears her name. Was she just not different ideologically from another person whose tendency survives or was there something else that makes people not want to publicly identify with her. A couple years ago I did some online quiz that got linked in some thread in C-SPAM and I came back ideologically with her as the closest match, so it's something I've always wondered.
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Dec 7, 2022 23:02
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Azathoth posted:I might have asked this before, but as big of a name as Rosa Luxemburg is in the history of Marxism, she doesn't seem to have an extant tendency that bears her name. Was she just not different ideologically from another person whose tendency survives or was there something else that makes people not want to publicly identify with her. A couple years ago I did some online quiz that got linked in some thread in C-SPAM and I came back ideologically with her as the closest match, so it's something I've always wondered. I found a spartacist org for you https://www.icl-fi.org
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Dec 7, 2022 23:10
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rosa was pretty much a trot, it's true. and that's why we love her
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Dec 7, 2022 23:39
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Well poo poo. On the plus side, I'm probably on a good path to have a job in the State Department in a few years at least
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Dec 8, 2022 00:37
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You can always follow in the footsteps of our favorite Spartacist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJe86RQq8lQ
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Dec 8, 2022 00:58
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MeatwadIsGod posted:You can always follow in the footsteps of our favorite Spartacist lmfao she's so uncomfortable
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Dec 8, 2022 01:14
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MeatwadIsGod posted:You can always follow in the footsteps of our favorite Spartacist He really is the perfect Trot, I'm glad he's got a huge platform to be crazy on
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Dec 8, 2022 01:19
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lmfao at The peasantry felt terrific about it.
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Dec 8, 2022 01:24
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CRAZY KNUCKLES FAN posted:lmfao she's so uncomfortable "Speaking of the peasantry winning, let's give them some trades" is the greatest line ever uttered on CNBC
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Dec 8, 2022 13:28
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Cramer gonna reveal on his deathbed that he was a deep cover agent all this time, tasked with destroying capitalism by showing all the small investors how broken the system is by wrecking them with the most insane financial advice he could possibly give.
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Dec 8, 2022 13:35
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MeatwadIsGod posted:You can always follow in the footsteps of our favorite Spartacist lmao
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Dec 8, 2022 16:28
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Not So Fast posted:https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1600119268858744832?t=LhthkqHjH4n-fnUfBJmQKg&s=19 this guy specializes in designing ways for sand to solve important problems like tic tac toe. who cares what he thinks about Marx lol
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Dec 8, 2022 18:15
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Tempora Mutantur posted:not if the central power exports the tools and training necessary to rule through fear and brutality Okay, but what about the MIC grift? Are they willing to sacrifice some profit to actually make the ends meet if they don't have enough resources to do that? It seems like actively meddling with Ukraine is already stretching current supply chains, and I suspect going global would cause massive issues. Just expanding current production as is when you have shrinking resources and crumbling infrastructure you refuse to invest in wouldn't seem to work, so surely they have to actually moderate to maintain their grip there right (in terms of keeping their grift somewhere other than the thing that lets them grift with impunity)?
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Dec 8, 2022 18:40
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if we want to find an example of functioning fascism we should look no further than the deeply segregated police state known as the united states of america
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Dec 8, 2022 19:29
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thechosenone posted:Okay, but what about the MIC grift? Are they willing to sacrifice some profit to actually make the ends meet if they don't have enough resources to do that? It seems like actively meddling with Ukraine is already stretching current supply chains, and I suspect going global would cause massive issues. Just expanding current production as is when you have shrinking resources and crumbling infrastructure you refuse to invest in wouldn't seem to work, so surely they have to actually moderate to maintain their grip there right (in terms of keeping their grift somewhere other than the thing that lets them grift with impunity)? No way, supply chain is a frictionless network of flows modelled with offsets for lanes between each node. It can all scale infinitely in perfect synchronization with the night shift and weekend shift hired randomly last week without informing any external partners. This excess capacity definitely exists and was not optimized out to have more profits.
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Dec 8, 2022 19:37
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Azathoth posted:Cramer gonna reveal on his deathbed that he was a deep cover agent all this time, tasked with destroying capitalism by showing all the small investors how broken the system is by wrecking them with the most insane financial advice he could possibly give. took me a long time before i realized tyou werent talking about seinfeld
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Dec 9, 2022 06:49
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Cuttlefush posted:took me a long time before i realized tyou werent talking about seinfeld michael richards was a deep state plot to undermine the cultural authority of the laugh factory
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Dec 9, 2022 14:16
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michael richards shoulda been the jason bourne actor
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Dec 9, 2022 17:57
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he was the wrench in the gears of the laugh factory
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Dec 9, 2022 18:29
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Does the average western worker have a higher relative productivity? If so, is this productivity built upon a mountain of skulls (imperialist exploitation)? I am not a third worldist because (per JMP’s arguments) it’s a deliberately self-defeating sect (similar to some aspects of Liberation Theology), but I do believe you could calculate Net Exploitation with enough inputs, and I’m trying to respond with nuance to the argument that some amount of western workers “are not actually exploited.”
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Dec 12, 2022 16:07
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Sunny Side Up posted:Does the average western worker have a higher relative productivity? If so, is this productivity built upon a mountain of skulls (imperialist exploitation)? Yes, they do. If I remember my stats right on industrial economics, a German factory worker produces in a shift what would elsewhere like Mexico or Brazil require three or four, thanks to capital development, or utilization of better means of production. Imperialism, of course, has part in the formation of said capital. Since I mentioned Germany, let's use that example: West Germany required the Marshall Plan to get its poo poo together, which got its funding available from the benefits through commercial exploitation with the poorer Allies. Among other things, the Brazilian exports of manganese and chromium through US Steel/Bethlehem made a huge trade surplus that was critical in the funding of reconstruction of Western Europe and especially its base of capital development. Brazil didn't get the same treatment.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:42
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There does seem to be an awful lot of worthless labor in the Western world. Advertising, insurance, entire industries that don't actually accomplish anything useful at all.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:59
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labour aristocrats are certainly exploited, but they are exploited from a position where they've already absorbed a lot of surplus value from lower in the value chain. that means that they typically sit on the highest value-adding steps of production, i.e. the most capitalised and the most skilled. in sum, they therefore have a degree of buy-in with the imperialist system, but there remains clear exploitation there.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:16
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It also depends on what part of the imperial core. I think there can come a point where a worker in the core legitimately has more of their short-term material interests aligned with the national bourgeoisie over the international proletariat. However, I think this can only occur in the strongest welfare states (which is why they so easily swing towards fascist sympathies) . For North America and most of Europe; the vast majority of workers are exploited; just to a lesser degree than in the periphery. I think a lot of people get personally frustrated with the lack of material action on the part of workers in the core against capitalism; and the sway that liberal and imperialist ideology holds over them. They then let resentment sink into their analysis. But these things also occur as a result of material conditions; rather than cultural sentiment.
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Dec 12, 2022 17:44
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| # ? May 27, 2024 19:22 |
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Yes, they do. If I remember my stats right on industrial economics, a German factory worker produces in a shift what would elsewhere like Mexico or Brazil require three or four, thanks to capital development, or utilization of better means of production. Not quite. Textile workers from the global south are more productive than Western textile workers. Also, any stat that attempts to quantify productivity is awful. A german steel plant may be able to produce ten times more steel per worker than a Brazilian plant, but that is because they have a global Monopoly on capital and they way inputs are produced. Nobody is going to include the labour from a nickel mine in Africa. Nor or they going to factor in the surplus value stolen from that same nickel mine and used as investment to purchase the advanced machinery in Germany
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Dec 12, 2022 18:24
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