[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

(Thread IKs: dead gay comedy forums)

MLSM: Apr 3, 2021; by Azathoth

Cpt_Obvious posted:

There does seem to be an awful lot of worthless labor in the Western world. Advertising, insurance, entire industries that don't actually accomplish anything useful at all.

Das Fictitious Kapital

# ? Dec 12, 2022 19:15

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# ? May 28, 2024 03:35

Marenghi: Oct 16, 2008; Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you

Cpt_Obvious posted:

There does seem to be an awful lot of worthless labor in the Western world. Advertising, insurance, entire industries that don't actually accomplish anything useful at all.

It's not entirely useless. Advertising is the propaganda that supports the cultural hegemony. Insurance is rent seeking. Then industries like consultancy which on the face of it seem pointless, actually serve a useful purpose to capital. They help siphon public money into private hands and influence governments into following neo-liberalism. On top of that it provides salaries for a range of workers become proponents of the current system because they believe they benefit from it.

I previously worked in telecoms and got to know a consultancy firm who advises developing nations on how to best develop their telecoms. They had some wild ideas. One idea that they brought to such countries was that auctioning off spectrum was inefficient and outdated, because the money spent on buying spectrum which goes to the government was money the companies couldn't use to invest in their networks. So they were advising countries in Africa and east Asia that the most efficient way to auction off spectrum was simply to give it freely to the biggest industry players who would then invest their savings in improving the networks and pass any savings to customers.

Marenghi has issued a correction as of 20:55 on Dec 12, 2022

# ? Dec 12, 2022 20:48

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

Marenghi posted:

So they were advising countries in Africa and east Asia that the most efficient way to auction off spectrum was simply to give it freely to the biggest industry players who would then invest their savings in improving the networks and pass any savings to customers.

And they say that communism won't work because people are back stabbong bastards who only look out for their selves.

# ? Dec 12, 2022 21:22

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

Cpt_Obvious posted:

There does seem to be an awful lot of worthless labor in the Western world. Advertising, insurance, entire industries that don't actually accomplish anything useful at all.

There a lot of inefficiency but abstract labor is super important regardless of the final commodity produced

# ? Dec 12, 2022 23:20

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

Kindest Forums User posted:

Not quite. Textile workers from the global south are more productive than Western textile workers.

Also, any stat that attempts to quantify productivity is awful. A german steel plant may be able to produce ten times more steel per worker than a Brazilian plant, but that is because they have a global Monopoly on capital and they way inputs are produced. Nobody is going to include the labour from a nickel mine in Africa. Nor or they going to factor in the surplus value stolen from that same nickel mine and used as investment to purchase the advanced machinery in Germany

Thank you for this

Can you tell I revisited some (bigoted, vulgar materialist) cockshott vids?

# ? Dec 12, 2022 23:21

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

MeatwadIsGod posted:

You can always follow in the footsteps of our favorite Spartacist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJe86RQq8lQ

lol

# ? Dec 13, 2022 07:42

camoseven: Dec 30, 2005; RODOLPHONE RINGIN'

Why does everyone hate Trotsky/Trotskyists?

# ? Dec 13, 2022 17:43

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

camoseven posted:

Why does everyone hate Trotsky/Trotskyists?

MeatwadIsGod posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJe86RQq8lQ

# ? Dec 13, 2022 17:48

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

he's the patron saint of jackasses

and that trotsky fellow seems to get annoying after awhile too (holy poo poo that cramer video lmao)

Cuttlefush has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Dec 13, 2022

# ? Dec 13, 2022 17:52

atelier morgan: Mar 11, 2003; super-scientific, ultra-gay; Lipstick Apathy

camoseven posted:

Why does everyone hate Trotsky/Trotskyists?

mostly because western trotskyist organizations are counterintelligence operations, not communists

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:07

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

camoseven posted:

Why does everyone hate Trotsky/Trotskyists?

Trotsky's whole thing after he got exiled from the USSR was that the USSR wasn't true socialism because it compromised to survive. Ever since then Trotskyists have carried on this quest by insisting that nothing is ever true socialism and therefore it's actually fine when left-wing movements and governments are destroyed.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:07

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

camoseven posted:

Why does everyone hate Trotsky/Trotskyists?

Soviet Glenn Greenwald

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:07

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

gradenko_2000 posted:

Soviet Glenn Greenwald

amazing

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:10

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

oh god

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:10

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

It's a movement that's basically a retirement home for people who don't want to give up reactionary cultural stuff. The PSL seems good and is nominally Trot-aligned iirc. The rest are pretty cringe.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:11

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

vyelkin posted:

Trotsky's whole thing after he got exiled from the USSR was that the USSR wasn't true socialism because it compromised to survive. Ever since then Trotskyists have carried on this quest by insisting that nothing is ever true socialism and therefore it's actually fine when left-wing movements and governments are destroyed.

this guy is trotsky

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:12

Aeolius: Jul 16, 2003; Simon Templeman Fanclub

vyelkin posted:

Trotsky's whole thing after he got exiled from the USSR was that the USSR wasn't true socialism because it compromised to survive. Ever since then Trotskyists have carried on this quest by insisting that nothing is ever true socialism and therefore it's actually fine when left-wing movements and governments are destroyed.

good nutshell.

for further consideration:

Aeolius posted:

this thing right here:

quote:
The features of Trotskyism which appear in this book (partly thanks to very candid description by [Chinese Trotskyist Wang Fan-hsi]) are dogmatism, heavy emphasis on ideology as against practical action, and factionalism. For example, after a formal Trotskyist Chinese Communist party was founded in 1931, it immediately broke into four sub-parties, each with hardly a hundred members, and despite a short period of �unification�, done at Trotsky�s insistence, the factions continued to exist. This made Trotskyists almost entirely irrelevant in the great struggle that opposed the Japanese, KMT and CCP. Wang mentions that other than for two small units, Trotskyists never managed to field any military force against the Japanese. Trotskyist activity during the war against Japan consisted in translations of Marxist classics and their distribution to Shanghai�s workers. It does not take much imagination to see that Shanghai�s workers might not have been in 1941 extremely keen to spend their time reading Plekhanov and Trotsky. The total failure of Trotskyist parties, frankly analyzed by Wang in the last section of the book, is rooted in that sterile intellectualism.

Helen Yaffe, Che Guevara: The Economics of Revolution posted:

Within Cuba, debate and comparative experimentation had been encouraged. But outside Cuba, Guevara�s critical analysis had led to accusations that he was variously a revisionist, a Trotskyist and a Maoist, name-calling which he regarded as dangerous politicking, machinations aimed to disrupt the tenuous fraternity of socialist countries and censure debate. One of the most annoying sources of these accusations was from Trotskyists who tried to compare his analysis with Trotsky�s criticisms. Distancing himself from Trotskyism, Guevara said:

quote:
There are some useful things that can be taken from Trotsky�s ideas. I believe that the fundamental things which Trotsky based himself on were erroneous, and that his later behaviour was wrong and even obscure in the final period. The Troskyists have contributed nothing to the revolutionary movement anywhere and where they did most, which was in Peru, they ultimately failed because their methods were bad. That comrade Hugo Blanco, personally a man of great sacrifice, based (his position) on a set of erroneous ideas and will necessarily fail.

if you are looking for something more in the genre of "longform 20th-century-style sectarian screed" this guy Tony Clark, who I momentarily mistook for Tony Cliff, has you covered

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:13

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

vyelkin posted:

Trotsky's whole thing after he got exiled from the USSR was that the USSR wasn't true socialism because it compromised to survive. Ever since then Trotskyists have carried on this quest by insisting that nothing is ever true socialism and therefore it's actually fine when left-wing movements and governments are destroyed.

the funniest example of this being american trotskyists splitting with literally trotsky over whether to support the ussr in ww2 lmao

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:22

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

gradenko_2000 posted:

Soviet Glenn Greenwald

lol

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:26

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

StashAugustine posted:

the funniest example of this being american trotskyists splitting with literally trotsky over whether to support the ussr in ww2 lmao

Lol wut? He was so bitter at losing he didn't want to fight Hitler? What a baby.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:31

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

socialist alternative split twice in america and founded a new international between August 2019-March 2022 and I got the impression it happens every year. also in 2019, a different Trotskyist organization, ISO, ceased existing because of sexual assault. Also they think China is deformed and want bankers from Hong Kong to decapitate Xi.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:31

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Epic High Five posted:

It's a movement that's basically a retirement home for people who don't want to give up reactionary cultural stuff. The PSL seems good and is nominally Trot-aligned iirc. The rest are pretty cringe.

yeah i'd put the PSL somewhere else. i actually ran into the SWP (who are more orthodox trots) at a thing and they were like "come to our meeeeeting... and there's no woke political correctness with us so you can ask any questions you want." it was weird.

there's a eurocentric current to trotskyism, as part of the theory about why the soviet union was deformed or "degenerated" is that the revolution didn't spread to europe. but it's an odd theory. why is europe so important? why not asia? why is success anywhere else contingent on europe? but the appeal is obvious to people who feel a sense of urgency in western countries, and it's not unimportant for the world for there to be a strong left in the united states and that does matter, but if a theory states that other parts of the world can't emerge into a new social system without your assistance, well that just doesn't accord with history. england became the most energetic capitalist country and it was a backwater compared to other european states but that's one reason why it took off there.

Aeolius posted:

good nutshell.

for further consideration:

there's a lot of emphasis on "texts" which is one reason why they split all the time, because there are disagreements over texts and interpretations of texts unmoored from practical struggle. some are probably better than others but generally there's a strong idealist current running through it.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:31

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

mawarannahr posted:

also in 2019, a different Trotskyist organization, ISO, ceased existing because of sexual assault.

wow, i�m shocked

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:37

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Lol wut? He was so bitter at losing he didn't want to fight Hitler? What a baby.

(afaik) no, trotsky was (sensibly) in favor of supporting the ussr against Literal Nazis, its the Trotskyists that weren't so sure about it

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:38

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

I thought europe was important because it was at the highest levels of capitalist development at that time with a skilled worker force that could help build socialism and start the process of abolishing the present state of things. The USSR had to industrialize itself fast while being locked out of the market as time went on.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:44

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

or the task is to have the right "program" and then things are gonna kick off when "the workers" suddenly all read the program and go "eureka! that's it!" and then they just flow in by the millions to teh amazing program

mawarannahr posted:

socialist alternative split twice in america and founded a new international between August 2019-March 2022 and I got the impression it happens every year. also in 2019, a different Trotskyist organization, ISO, ceased existing because of sexual assault. Also they think China is deformed and want bankers from Hong to decapitate Xi.

the ISO had underlying organizational and structural problems, so the sexual assault became an accelerating condition of various contradictions leading to the destruction of the org. a lot of orgs have age gaps, with seriously aging leadership which don't train qualified successors, and then very young members especially if their cadre are mainly students who flow in/out (as the ISO was). then there are factional struggles between left/right, the temptation to integrate into the democratic party (i.e. DSA), but there are also problems with ultra-leftism on the other side. and left-wing groups don't cooperate much between each other or have relations so there's no real desire among anyone to "save" another org experiencing a crisis. it's not like these orgs have fraternal relations with other orgs in their own country.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:51

Aeolius: Jul 16, 2003; Simon Templeman Fanclub

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

yeah i'd put the PSL somewhere else.

Many are saying this!

E.g., from a 1977 NCM doc alleged to have been written by Al Szymansky:

quote:

What Trotskyism Means

An idealist definition of a �trotskyist� would focus on whether or not an individual or group like Leon Trotsky, read his work with respect and sided with Trotsky over Stalin in the 1920�s and 1930�s. A materialist definition of a �trotkyist� on the other hand would ask rather whether or not a group acted essentially like Trotsky acted and if its strategy was essentially like that of Trotsky, i.e., was objectively �Trotskyite�. Taking a materialist approach one would be considered a trotskyist if one acting like Trotsky even if one liked Stalin and hated Trotsky, while conversely one would not be considered a trotskyist if one did not acted like Trotsky and have a strategy like that of Trotsky, even if one liked Trotsky, read his works, etc. In Examining various groups and currents we must be very careful to always use a materialist definition, and not be confused by verbal disclaimers, genealogies or posters on people�s walls.

The essence of what the Marxist-Leninist tradition including Stalin, Mao, Fidel and Ho Chi Minh have meant by �trotskyism� is a left-adventurist and dogmatic analysis which condemns all existing socialist countries and people�s democracies as not really socialist, being run by bureaucrats or perhaps state capitalists acting against the interests of the working people, and which likewise condemns all massive popular, progressive, or Communist led movements as being insufficiently revolutionary or in the process of selling out the masses in the interests of a bureaucracy, either local or located in the USSR, China, etc. Trotskyism differs from the anarchists who make similar claims about all progressive and socialist movements and regimes by claiming adherence to the principles of Leninism, endorsing the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 and organizing themselves more or less according to Leninist principles. This is the essence of trotskyism and the sole criteria by which a group or current should be categorized as �trotskyist.� Applying this criteria to groups like the Progressive Labor Party in the U.S. which condemn China, the USSR, Cuba and ail progressive and socialist regimes as well as the CPUSA, RCP, CL, SWP and all other groups in the U.S., all progressive, socialist or national liberation movements in Third World countries, and all progressive and Communist lead movements in the advanced capitalist countries, as selling out the masses, tools of the Soviet or Chinese bureaucracies etc., are pure trotskyist groups. PLP sees itself as the only truly revolutionary group in the world. On the other hand a splinter group from the Socialist Workers Party (the main Trotskyist group in the U.S.), the Workers World Party and its youth group Youth Against War and Fascism, gives basic support to Third World national liberation movements and socialist regimes such as those of the Cubans, Vietnamese, Angolans, etc., and (at least at last look) considered China and other socialist countries to be socialist. Thus in spite of their positive attitude about Leon Trotsky they can not be considered to be �trotskyists.�

A secondary but central characteristic of �trotskyism� is its historical position on the role of the working class, national bourgeoisies and nationalism in general in the revolutionary struggle, especially in Third World countries, but also in Third World communities in the advanced capitalist countries. Trotsky�s position, generally adopted by trotskyist groups is that the working class is the principle revolutionary force in Third World countries as well as in the advanced countries and that both nationalism and the national bourgeoisie are necessarily reactionary forces. The position developed by the Comintern in the 1920�s and endorsed by both Soviet and Chinese Communists is that nationalism is often a progressive force in Third World countries and should be utilized to mobilize the masses of people to get rid of imperialism and begin a popular democratic (�new democratic�) revolution and further that the local capitalists who are oppressed by foreign imperialism can be allied with (but with the working class and peasantry playing the leading role in this alliance) in getting rid of imperialism. Once again the position of the PLP is identical to the classical trotskyist position on this question, while that of the WWP-YAWF is in conflict.

In general �trotskyism� is characterized by a dogmatic or rationalist theory of knowledge, inflexibility in strategy and tactics, hyper sectarianism in relations to other groups and overbearingness in their style of work. Rather than developing their theory and strategy through the dialectic of theory and practice in the manner described so well by Mao-Tse-tung�s On Practice, trotskyists read Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, or Stalin as a monk would read the Bible (as sacred dogma) then use it to criticize the inadequacies in the world, specifically the imperfect nature of various socialist countries and movements and the backwardness of the peasants, workers, and other progressive forces which do not live up to what they think Marx, Lenin, Trotsky or Stalin said about them. If countries and movements and classes do not live up to the ideal standards of Trotsky than so much the worse for them.

Trotskyists almost never learn from practice, their strategies and tactics almost never change as a result of trial and error and sum up. Instead changes in their positions occur through intellectualist dogmatic debate of the order of who is really loyal to the true Fourth International (or to the Third), who really has the correct interpretation of what Leon Trotsky (or Stalin) really really meant. Because of the rationalism of their theory of knowledge and the corresponding lack of and often distain for practice trotskyist groups constantly split into ever smaller groups all of which maintain hostile relations with all other trotskyist groups. The idea that correct thought, rather than current practice, will decide the issues dividing them is pervasive. Trotskyites often focus most of their energy on fighting each other rather than on actually organizing the working class. Because of their frequent obsession with ideological conversion, rather than with, mass struggles, trotskyists are often most overbearing in their attempts to badger people into endorsing their various lines. Out of fairness it must be noted that not all trotskyists groups share equally in this later categorizations, and hence that they are not defining characteristics of trotskyism. For example, the Socialist Workers Party works in many mass struggles (although some would argue only in order to recruit members) and the International Socialists seem to be rooted in the working class (if only because many of their former student members have taken factory jobs). The most prominent examples of pure trotskyist groups in the U.S. are the Spartacus League and the Progressive Labor Party.

(Until someone can explain the WWP/PSL split for me in a way that doesn't boil down to personality clashes I'll continue to view them as interchangeable)

Aeolius has issued a correction as of 19:01 on Dec 13, 2022

# ? Dec 13, 2022 18:58

PERPETUAL IDIOT: Sep 12, 2003

camoseven posted:

Why does everyone hate Trotsky/Trotskyists?

To add on to what other people have said, I think there is a perception among other leftist groups, at least in the US, that they use sort of underhanded tactics. So, for instance, they find out you have some kind of protest or action going on, they'll show up with their own signs and try to act like they helped organize things. Or they'd try to place members of their org in other orgs and organize splinter groups and/or internal politics takeovers so that the existing org is now aligned with their main group. That kind of thing.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 19:04

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:

To add on to what other people have said, I think there is a perception among other leftist groups, at least in the US, that they use sort of underhanded tactics. So, for instance, they find out you have some kind of protest or action going on, they'll show up with their own signs and try to act like they helped organize things. Or they'd try to place members of their org in other orgs and organize splinter groups and/or internal politics takeovers so that the existing org is now aligned with their main group. That kind of thing.

this is intentional and preplanned, often over several meetings. they call it �intervening.�

# ? Dec 13, 2022 19:06

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

What's with the NAMBLA strain of Trotskyism? A weird historical accident, or are age-of-consent laws the final barrier to permanent revolution?

# ? Dec 13, 2022 19:07

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Aeolius posted:

Taking a materialist approach one would be considered a trotskyist if one acting like Trotsky even if one liked Stalin and hated Trotsky, while conversely one would not be considered a trotskyist if one did not acted like Trotsky and have a strategy like that of Trotsky, even if one liked Trotsky, read his works, etc.

PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:

To add on to what other people have said, I think there is a perception among other leftist groups, at least in the US, that they use sort of underhanded tactics. So, for instance, they find out you have some kind of protest or action going on, they'll show up with their own signs and try to act like they helped organize things. Or they'd try to place members of their org in other orgs and organize splinter groups and/or internal politics takeovers so that the existing org is now aligned with their main group. That kind of thing.

appeals to "evangelical" types too. i think this character trait is operating via subversion in the webster's dictionary definition of the term. they avoid asserting themselves in an open or direct way. it's a kinda slave morality.

i feel it would help for people to start acting more like diplomats. "hello, i'm from this group and we believe in non-interference in your internal affairs, along with equal and friendly win/win partnerships."

BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 20:03 on Dec 13, 2022

# ? Dec 13, 2022 19:12

F Stop Fitzgerald: Dec 12, 2010

mawarannahr posted:

they call it �intervening.�

they love it

Losurdo posted:

Having exhausted the vision of an �International Soviet Republic�, and with it the final disappearance of state and national borders, Stalin makes use of the principle of peaceful coexistence between countries with different social systems. But this new principle, that was the result of a learning process and that guaranteed the Soviet Union the right to independence in a world that was hostile and militarily stronger, in the eyes of Trotsky appeared to be a betrayal of proletarian internationalism, as well as the abandonment of the duty of mutual and active solidarity between the oppressed and exploited around the whole world. His polemic against the political turn is unending, against the transformation of the initial �internationalist revolutionary� program into a �conservative-national� program; against �the national pacifist foreign policy of the Soviet government�; against ignoring the principle based on the idea that a single workers state should alone carry out the role of �leading the world revolution." In any case, since the peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism is impossible, �a socialist state can�t peacefully integrate and develop within a world capitalist system." It�s a position that Trotsky stresses still in 1940: it would have been better not to have started the war against Finland, but once started, it should have been �seen through until the end, that is, until the sovietization of Finland."

# ? Dec 13, 2022 19:23

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

The funniest part about the SWP right now is they believe in tailing the most reactionary parts of the "white working class" on every issue except Ukraine. They love lecturing people on how we need to support Ukrainian self-defense against Russian imperialism.

They're good on Cuba at least.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 19:52

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Atrocious Joe posted:

The funniest part about the SWP right now is they believe in tailing the most reactionary parts of the "white working class" on every issue except Ukraine.

you almost have to hand it to them to troll as many constituencies at once

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:08

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

Halloween Jack posted:

What's with the NAMBLA strain of Trotskyism? A weird historical accident, or are age-of-consent laws the final barrier to permanent revolution?

that's just the french leftist strain or whatever. belgian? trotsky was in love with his adult wife and while the trots may hand out newspapers and end up supporting the state department again and again this isn't really a core ideology

(every true trot at all times strives to embody the personal qualities of their leader)

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:09

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

anyway if the thread talks about the trots too much it gets kinda weird

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:11

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

The funniest part about the SWP right now is they believe in tailing the most reactionary parts of the "white working class" on every issue except Ukraine. They love lecturing people on how we need to support Ukrainian self-defense against Russian imperialism.

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

yeah i'd put the PSL somewhere else. i actually ran into the SWP (who are more orthodox trots) at a thing and they were like "come to our meeeeeting... and there's no woke political correctness with us so you can ask any questions you want." it was weird.

Man why even bother with MAGACommunism when these groups already exist. Well, I guess both the SWP and LaRoucheites are like Trotskyist/post-Trotskyist groups, the latter is just better at getting attention

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:14

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Cuttlefush posted:

that's just the french leftist strain or whatever. belgian? trotsky was in love with his adult wife and while the trots may hand out newspapers and end up supporting the state department again and again this isn't really a core ideology

I was thinking of David Thorstad and the SEP, I forgot all about the French intellectuals.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:19

PERPETUAL IDIOT: Sep 12, 2003

Maximo Roboto posted:

Man why even bother with MAGACommunism when these groups already exist. Well, I guess both the SWP and LaRoucheites are like Trotskyist/post-Trotskyist groups, the latter is just better at getting attention

Larouche is just effectively a cult I think. Revcom is the one that is a bit more plausibly an actual group, though they're not Trots.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:19

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# ? May 28, 2024 03:35

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

some Westgerman leftish groups spoke in favor of �pro-choice� arguments and its members practiced said abuse.

# ? Dec 13, 2022 20:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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