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Only thing I can think of it was someone in the Russian military who just wanted to put out there "yeah were going to attack them, this isn't an escalation or anything". As yeah no one wouldn't think there military targets, and it's not like Russia gives a drat about if what they're bombing is a military target or not.
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Dec 15, 2022 04:12
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Eric Cantonese posted:Were they not targeting the weapons the US had already given Ukraine in the past? What a weird thing to say. Yeah, for some reason the Kremlin needed to do some saber-rattling. Of course they're military targets. Within a week they'll claim to have destroyed twice as many as were deployed.
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Dec 15, 2022 04:16
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To be fair, after reading the actual Times piece, there's a question about how quickly you can train Ukrainian personnel to use the Patriot missiles. If you sent US personnel in as well to help the Ukrainians start using those systems as soon as possible, there would be the chance that those US personnel getting hit by Russian attacks.
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Dec 15, 2022 04:18
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Deteriorata posted:Within a week they'll claim to have destroyed twice as many as were deployed. To be fair, they did that for the HIMARS because Ukraine deployed so many insanely good decoys.
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Dec 15, 2022 04:35
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DancingMachine posted:What an incredibly dumb idea to try to turn into a story. God the New York Times suck so bad. No poo poo Russia would target military equipment in use by the Ukraine Military inside Ukraine. They literally had a story on Ukraine attacking Enes and claimed it was an escalation in the loving article title. They changed it after enough people called them out on it
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Dec 15, 2022 04:41
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Eric Cantonese posted:To be fair, after reading the actual Times piece, there's a question about how quickly you can train Ukrainian personnel to use the Patriot missiles. If you sent US personnel in as well to help the Ukrainians start using those systems as soon as possible, there would be the chance that those US personnel getting hit by Russian attacks. I mean, even if that happens, I can't really see the US doing anything but shrugging and saying "Fair play" in real terms. It's a little hard to build outrage over the death of soldiers sent to an active warzone, even as trainers. At worst it might mean a minor domestic political hit for the choice to send US soldiers out in the first place, but diplomatically I don't see this making any difference unless the US has been really gagging for an excuse to start WW3, which aside from the fever dreams of Russian state TV doesn't seem to be the case.
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Dec 15, 2022 04:47
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Haven't there already been a number of Iranian trainers killed and everyone's response has been "well, obviously". Plus of course the american volunteers fighting as infantry.
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Dec 15, 2022 05:03
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Soviets flew jets in the Korea War. No one cared
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Dec 15, 2022 06:22
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Charlz Guybon posted:Soviets flew jets in the Korea War. No one cared The top US general recommended nuclear war over Korea and criticized civil control of the military. Thankfully, he was fired. Despite that, he was massively popular and welcomed by most of the public as a hero upon his relief.
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Dec 15, 2022 06:46
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tbf he recommended nuclear war against basically everything, that was pretty much his thing
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Dec 15, 2022 06:58
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Herstory Begins Now posted:tbf he recommended nuclear war against basically everything, that was pretty much his thing It was a lot of peoples' thing in the early '50s.
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Dec 15, 2022 07:23
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Charlz Guybon posted:Soviets flew jets in the Korea War. No one cared And the North Koreans shot down an EC-121 in 1969 and killed everyone on board. Even the Soviets were  over it.
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Dec 15, 2022 07:25
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It was a lot of peoples' thing in the early '50s. Some people were to busy putting nuclear warheads and/or reactors into everything to have strong opinions on their usage.
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Dec 15, 2022 07:32
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mlmp08 posted:The top US general recommended nuclear war over Korea and criticized civil control of the military. Thankfully, he was fired. Despite that, he was massively popular and welcomed by most of the public as a hero upon his relief. “I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. That's the answer to that. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the laws for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.” - Harry S Truman
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Dec 15, 2022 07:52
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Ogmius815 posted:“I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. That's the answer to that. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the laws for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.”  Truman wasn’t very popular or respected at the end of his term but his reputation rose as the years went on.
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Dec 15, 2022 09:29
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Eric Cantonese posted:To be fair, after reading the actual Times piece, there's a question about how quickly you can train Ukrainian personnel to use the Patriot missiles. If you sent US personnel in as well to help the Ukrainians start using those systems as soon as possible, there would be the chance that those US personnel getting hit by Russian attacks. The piece I linked mentions multi-month training period in Germany.
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Dec 15, 2022 10:34
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cinci zoo sniper posted:The piece I linked mentions multi-month training period in Germany. The obvious thing is the Russian thinks that it will take a while to train, that the cribbed solution to that is to send em in early with some US personnel support and if Russia gets a few, then Russia will do a "I told you so". I think Russia is trying to force the US to complete the training fully and send the equipment only - which will take a long time and not be as effective.
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Dec 15, 2022 11:07
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Eric Cantonese posted:To be fair, after reading the actual Times piece, there's a question about how quickly you can train Ukrainian personnel to use the Patriot missiles. If you sent US personnel in as well to help the Ukrainians start using those systems as soon as possible, there would be the chance that those US personnel getting hit by Russian attacks. AIT for a 14T (Patriot launching station enhanced operator / maintainer) is 13 weeks long. If they can teach dumb 18 year old kids to operate it, they can teach Ukrainian combat veterans as well.
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Dec 15, 2022 13:24
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Kith posted:To be fair, they did that for the HIMARS because Ukraine deployed so many insanely good decoys. They did that because saying otherwise would make "them" (ranging from the people supposed to be finding and targeting them to a swathe of leadership) look inept and weak. Saying they're blowing them all up can at least be good for morale and at least conceivably contribute to stopping the flow of new launchers and ammunition by convincing gullible people that the money and weapons provided as aid are being wasted. The Russian people already know their military and leadership lie to them constantly, getting caught lying about this isn't going to be a big deal for them. The fact Ukrainian S-300's are still blowing Russian jets and helicopters out of the sky would indicate that the Ukrainians know how to keep huge SAM systems like Patriot not-exploded, which is likely to be a bit harder than keeping HIMARS not-exploded. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 13:30
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My favorite story was about how one of the HIMARS was outright stolen and sold to the Russians. No you can't see any proof, just trust me.
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Dec 15, 2022 13:41
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Charlz Guybon posted:Soviets flew jets in the Korea War. No one cared exactly escalation panic articles are written for clicks
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Dec 15, 2022 13:44
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cinci zoo sniper posted:The piece I linked mentions multi-month training period in Germany. I recall that’s something people have been talking about for a while, but do we know if it’s been happening?
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Dec 15, 2022 13:58
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mlmp08 posted:The top US general recommended nuclear war over Korea and criticized civil control of the military. Thankfully, he was fired. Despite that, he was massively popular and welcomed by most of the public as a hero upon his relief. The Soviet jets weren't really what had Mac going all nukey, it was the Chinese intervention.
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Dec 15, 2022 14:00
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Randarkman posted:The Soviet jets weren't really what had Mac going all nukey, it was the Chinese intervention. Yup. And when the Soviets had at least a handful of pilots and a bunch of SAM operators shooting down US planes in Vietnam, nobody cared.
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Dec 15, 2022 14:05
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ought ten posted:I recall that’s something people have been talking about for a while, but do we know if it’s been happening? There are fresh rumours from this week, that a formal announcement is imminent.
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Dec 15, 2022 14:16
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Warbadger posted:Yup. And when the Soviets had at least a handful of pilots and a bunch of SAM operators shooting down US planes in Vietnam, nobody cared. Didn't the Americans care enough to not bomb a bunch of N.Vietnamese airfields in order to avoid killing Soviet/Chinese pilots, trainers and support staff because of the 'escalation threat'?
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Dec 15, 2022 14:58
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Roumba posted:Didn't the Americans care enough to not bomb a bunch of N.Vietnamese airfields in order to avoid killing Soviet/Chinese pilots, trainers and support staff because of the 'escalation threat'? There were targeting restrictions in the very northern part of North Vietnam because there were a significant number of off duty PLA troops acting in logistics and air defense roles in that area. At its height, they numbered nearly 300,000.
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Dec 15, 2022 15:06
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General Zaluzhnyi gave an interview to The Economist. https://www.economist.com/zaluzhny-transcript?fbclid=IwAR0CS0B0YCkvbgEPWUhIkyWHX9rIMuvwKONG3KB-gYkZnIh_vWNyONY9TVg A lot of interesting bits about his strategy and general assessment of the situation. The bit that both Russian and Ukrainian media seem to focus on is at the very end, though. quote:Russian mobilisation has worked. It is not true that their problems are so dire that these people will not fight. They will. A tsar tells them to go to war, and they go to war. I’ve studied the history of the two Chechen wars—it was the same. They may not be that well equipped, but they still present a problem for us. We estimate that they have a reserve of 1.2m-1.5m people… The Russians are preparing some 200,000 fresh troops. I have no doubt they will have another go at Kyiv.
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Dec 15, 2022 15:51
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Randarkman posted:The Soviet jets weren't really what had Mac going all nukey, it was the Chinese intervention. I would still argue we cared A Lot in that it confirmed the biases of guys thinking up domino theory, containment, or more hawkish theories that we had to fight communism every single place. It was a reality of the wars that weapons were shipped, but it helped form decades of policy.
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Dec 15, 2022 16:00
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How do patriots compare to S300s?
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Dec 15, 2022 16:13
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cr0y posted:How do patriots compare to S300s? For cruise missile defense probably good enough to say they can both do point defense. They do not speak the same software language. It depends on the build. Patriot has existed since the 80s, but modern Patriot today is very different. Greece has some very old Patriot systems, whereas the US has been continually designing and fielding new builds of Patriot.
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Dec 15, 2022 16:15
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Paladinus posted:General Zaluzhnyi gave an interview to The Economist. The wordings that Zaluzhny uses and the fact that he lists concrete numbers of vehicles they need makes me think its another episode of glooming things up to hasten the delivery of new arms.
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Dec 15, 2022 17:13
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fatherboxx posted:The wordings that Zaluzhny uses and the fact that he lists concrete numbers of vehicles they need makes me think its another episode of glooming things up to hasten the delivery of new arms. Yeah, agreed, the specific numbers make me think that what's backing his numbers are sort of wish list if I had a mechanized infantry/tank battalion at x position I could make a push here style thought process.
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Dec 15, 2022 17:32
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Roumba posted:Didn't the Americans care enough to not bomb a bunch of N.Vietnamese airfields in order to avoid killing Soviet/Chinese pilots, trainers and support staff because of the 'escalation threat'? In the 1st Gulf War some Soviet instructors who had been assisting the Iraqis were captured, and very quietly handed over to a Soviet embassy. No fuss or press.
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Dec 15, 2022 17:37
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fatherboxx posted:The wordings that Zaluzhny uses and the fact that he lists concrete numbers of vehicles they need makes me think its another episode of glooming things up to hasten the delivery of new arms. The quoted paragraph reads very matter of fact and checks out against the observed situation, including the historical comparison of the conscript behavior during the Chechen wars seeming perfectly reasonable.
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Dec 15, 2022 17:37
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Baconroll posted:In the 1st Gulf War some Soviet instructors who had been assisting the Iraqis were captured, and very quietly handed over to a Soviet embassy. No fuss or press. Whereas in 2003, the US made a public stink about Russia selling ATGMs and jammers to Iraq.
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Dec 15, 2022 18:14
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mlmp08 posted:Whereas in 2003, the US made a public stink about Russia selling ATGMs and jammers to Iraq. So, what did the US do about it?
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Dec 15, 2022 18:45
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Warbadger posted:So, what did the US do about it? Bitched and moaned and then implemented economic sanctions.
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Dec 15, 2022 18:54
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mlmp08 posted:Bitched and moaned and then implemented economic sanctions. So not much of an escalation, you'd agree?
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Dec 15, 2022 18:55
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mlmp08 posted:For cruise missile defense probably good enough to say they can both do point defense. They do not speak the same software language. This doesn't get enough attention. Military equipment gets iterated on a lot. The M1A1s I had in Korea were excellent, but optics on the M1A2s we had a few years later in Iraq were significantly better. We actually took a brand-new iteration of the M3 Bradley to Iraq in 2003, and it had tons of little improvements: better navigation that didn't require GPS, digital maps, and like a half-dozen more TOW missiles. (The apocryphal tale was that some staff sergeant in the First Gulf War told BAE that their ammunition storage design for missiles in the back sucked, and then he showed them how to do it better.) Just look at HIMARS versus the original MLRS system from the 1980s, or the humble 81mm mortar which now fires operator-guided shells and posts video of running Russians on Reddit. Baconroll posted:In the 1st Gulf War some Soviet instructors who had been assisting the Iraqis were captured, and very quietly handed over to a Soviet embassy. No fuss or press. I had never heard this, though it makes perfect sense. Given the Soviets just saw the pride and joy of their air defense doctrine dismantled in about 30 days, I'm not surprised they made no fuss either. Thanks for sharing it! Paladinus posted:General Zaluzhnyi gave an interview to The Economist. Zaluzhnyi is going to go down as one of the finest operational commanders in the past 100 years.
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Dec 15, 2022 18:57
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