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BDawg posted:There's not a lot someone like him needs to do right now. Visiting early states to get his name out there isn't needed. All he really needs to do is raise money. It's still very early. I'm hoping he runs as an independent against DeSantis.
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Dec 19, 2022 20:55
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm hoping he runs as an independent against DeSantis. Even if he doesn't officially run there will absolutely be chuds writing in TRUMP if he's not the nominee
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Dec 19, 2022 20:57
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Jaxyon posted:I'm wrong, it is a crime, but it's rarely prosecuted and I don't know of anyone who goes to jail, as I certainly would if stole similar amounts. When people say "I don't know of X happening", that says less about the frequency of X and more about what the media devotes attention to (as well as what kinds of media you consume). Wage theft is prosecuted often enough, occasionally faces criminal charges (rather than just civil charges), and every so often actually gets people sent to jail. The reason you don't know about it is because straight-up wage theft is generally small-scale stuff that doesn't make the national news. Big multinational companies generally don't do it (at least without a layer of plausible deniability in the middle to take or spread the blame for them), precisely because it's so obviously on the wrong side of laws that actually do get enforced, and tends to leave a heavy paper trail when done on that scale (unless you commit more crimes to cover it up). Unlike many other executive agencies, the Department of Labor hasn't been completely neutered by regulatory capture, and states also have their own labor laws that some local prosecutor can always jump on for some easy popular press. Instead, blatant wage theft violations are more often seen from local and regional businesses, where the financials are directly overseen by some small business tyrant who sees the workers regularly and thinks he knows exactly how much he can fool them. That kind of stuff generally only shows up in the local news. For example, a guy who owned nine Papa John's locations who refused to pay time and a half for overtime, getting two months in jail and paying back double what he stole. Or if you'd prefer a longer sentence, someone who owned a Thai restaurant and basically just didn't pay half the staff getting two years in prison for grand theft of labor. Or for a more recent one, how about a hemp farmer who stole his employees' payroll taxes and then stopped paying them altogether being sentenced to a year in prison?
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Dec 19, 2022 20:57
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Youth Decay posted:Even if he doesn't officially run there will absolutely be chuds writing in TRUMP if he's not the nominee Probably several million, spread across all the States, it would be glorious
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Dec 19, 2022 20:58
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Youth Decay posted:Even if he doesn't officially run there will absolutely be chuds writing in TRUMP if he's not the nominee If Trump keeps 10-15% of the base, the Republicans will get hammered in 2024
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Dec 19, 2022 21:19
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Who Is Rep.-Elect George Santos? His Resume May Be Largely Fiction.quote:Kedric Payne, the vice president of the watchdog Campaign Legal Center, and a former deputy chief counsel for the Office of Congressional Ethics, was one of three election law experts consulted by the Times who took issue with the lack of detail.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:24
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WaPo seems to confirm that they are going to pass a year-long budget for the first time in nearly a decade, with non-defense spending increased to the levels Biden asked for in his budget and defense spending increased to ~$40 billion more than Biden asked for. The expanded child tax credit is not included and the Democrats killed the Covid business and Trump Tax cut extensions in response. https://twitter.com/LACaldwellDC/status/1604932411711709184
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Dec 19, 2022 21:49
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Main Paineframe posted:When people say "I don't know of X happening", that says less about the frequency of X and more about what the media devotes attention to (as well as what kinds of media you consume). Most people would say that if workers need to file a class action lawsuit and win to receive their stolen wages, the government is not actually doing its job of prosecuting wage theft. For examples: https://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/the-willows-inn-on-lummi-island-settles-1-37-million-class-action-wage-theft-lawsuit/ https://waiterpay.com/blog/celebrity-chef-chris-santos-sued-for-wage-theft-by-former-bussers https://ny.eater.com/2022/5/12/23066941/wage-theft-lawsuit-frank-prisinzano-east-village-2022 https://mynorthwest.com/1055275/chef-josh-henderson-settlement-wage-theft/ https://www.thedailymeal.com/news/eat/scott-conant-s-former-restaurant-scarpetta-sued-wage-theft-low-pay/061215 https://pechmanlaw.com/salt-bae-and...overtime-wages/ https://sfist.com/2022/10/11/trendy-new-stk-steakhouse-hit-with-wage-theft-suit-allegations-employees-were-forced-to-work-with-covid-19/ https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/eats/celebrity-chef-mario-batali-ordered-pay-5-25-million-skimming-tips-restaurant-article-1.1035001 https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/dining/27zakarian.html Note that these are mainly famous restauranteurs that all stole and avoided any criminal penalties. Losing a class action lawsuit and having to pay your employees is not the government doing its job.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:55
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Also, most of those civil suits came about after a successful DOL prosecution. The problem is that the DOL has really small caps on what kind of punishment it can levy for wage violation if this is the first prosecution against a business, so they are almost always followed up by civil cases looking for more money. And it is estimated that there is about $15 billion in wage theft per year, but the DOL only recovers about $2 billion. That estimate could be high, because one of the big problems is that the vast majority of wage theft is never reported, but either way the DOL isn't catching the vast majority of wage theft. They do tend to prosecute when they get reports, but the business has to be a repeat offender who is convicted multiple times before they get any major penalties like jail time.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:12
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The post you were responding to had criminal prosecutions, not class actions. Yes, and I was pointing out that most stories about wage theft don't involve criminal prosecutions which is why people don't feel that it's properly treated as theft. Why are there so many class action lawsuits for wage theft if the government can and will prosecute and force the workers to be made whole?
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Dec 19, 2022 22:18
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If people want to show the frequency of x happening they should just post hard data showing if X does or doesn't happen a lot, not cherry picked examples back and forth. Three criminal cases does not tell me the frequency is high. A handful of class action lawsuits also doesn't tell me if the frequency is low.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:27
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it mostly isn't handled as a criminal thing, eg you call up the state labor board or bureau of labor and file a report which leads to, typically a small, kind of cursory investigation and some extremely threatening communications towards the employer. most wage theft claims are pretty small, eg people being made to work an extra hour without being clocked in. restitution is generally they get comped paid for the unpaid time (sometimes with a multiple of the regular wage). I believe in most areas there are heavy punitive fines for employer violations to offset the smaller amounts involved. state labor boards generally really do not gently caress around and they hire people who are basically dying to go after lovely employers. the big issue is a lack of awareness of both employee rights and of the process for filing complaints. it's also not really an issue of ~capitalism~ or evil america poo poo because one of the absolutely core parts of the whole american economic system is that workers get paid.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:28
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We famously designed our Constitution to accommodate that not happening (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 19, 2022 22:30
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Halloween Jack posted:We famously designed our Constitution to accommodate that not happening What the gently caress are you talking about.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:38
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Discendo Vox posted:What the gently caress are you talking about. i assume he's talking about slavery, which is famously a situation where workers do not get paid  however the american economic system has, uh, changed somewhat since the 1700s
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Dec 19, 2022 22:40
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Now you have to go through a whole legal song and dance using bullshit charges to get your slave labor.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:42
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's also not really an issue of ~capitalism~ or evil america poo poo because one of the absolutely core parts of the whole american economic system is that workers get paid. gently caress off with your tildes. Also I feel like the American economic system is based around a lot of people not getting paid as much as they could/can/should be. Or just effectively nothing. Why wouldn't it be?
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Dec 19, 2022 22:43
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https://calmatters.org/california-divide/2022/10/california-wage-theft/quote:Hahn, who owns Pacific Commercial, faced more than a dozen counts of grand theft of wages and other allegations. He pleaded guilty to a count of insurance fraud and wage theft and has agreed to pay $1.6 million in restitution.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:55
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koolkal posted:Yes, and I was pointing out that most stories about wage theft don't involve criminal prosecutions which is why people don't feel that it's properly treated as theft. There *are* prosecutions. So arguing that the government either can't or won't prosecute literally one post later comes across as a misrepresentation. Now you're making a "most stories" claim. Here's what I see in a Google news search. I see more prosecutions and I don't think any of these are class actions (I skimmed them quickly, full disclosure) This definitely isn't an argument that the government does enough, or does a good job, but your argument has gaps. 
DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 19, 2022 |
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Dec 19, 2022 23:13
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I represented people in bond court once day a week for about two years and in all that time I never saw anyone charged for stealing from their employees in any capacity
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Dec 19, 2022 23:51
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What's this about an Omnibus spending bill? 1.7 Trillion in spending with 858 billion in defense spending? This'll avert the GOP House from shutting down the government next year, right?
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Dec 20, 2022 00:02
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Wage theft is real weird as crimes go because its often a side effect of power tripping managers who don't directly benefit. the store manager at home depot doesn't benefit in a legally measurable way from mishandling overtime, but the 30 minutes a week he steals from each employee sure does stack up fast. And by far the most common form is putting unrealistic expectations on people that force them to skip legally mandated breaks. Juicing the productivity numbers at the workers expense in a way that's basically invisible after the fact. Barrel Cactaur fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 00:07
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DeadlyMuffin posted:There *are* prosecutions. So arguing that the government either can't or won't prosecute literally one post later comes across as a misrepresentation. oh neat calmatters, the site I just quoted as pointing out how few prosecutions happen
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Dec 20, 2022 00:12
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DeadlyMuffin posted:There *are* prosecutions. So arguing that the government either can't or won't prosecute literally one post later comes across as a misrepresentation. First story appears to be Department of Labor administrative actions with no criminal charges. The second story is a lawsuit, not criminal charges. The third story is that the San Diego city council will change policies on who can bid on contracts to combat wage theft. A portion of contractually agreed on money will be withheld until the completion of the work and confirmation that no wage theft complaints were made. The fourth story is that the Cleveland city council will now require all businesses seeking city contracts or financial assistance to self report if any agencies have found that they committed wage or payroll fraud in the last three years. Failure to report is a first degree misdemeanor. The fifth is uh, a post above yours. It's about how most wage theft in California is most often handled administratively and criminal charges are rarely brought forward. You actually did not manage to find a single story about criminal charges besides the article that uses them as an exception to what normally happens.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:36
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Administrative procedure is an appropriate way of handling such cases. There's no basis to assert it's not "properly handled" that it's handled faster, more commonly and cheaper. Prosecution is what's pursued when administrative procedure can't work.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:39
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The point is that if I'm steeling a similar amount of cash, I'm in jail. Not an administrative procedure.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:41
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Discendo Vox posted:Administrative procedure is an appropriate way of handling such cases. There's no basis to assert it's not "properly handled" that it's handled faster, more commonly and cheaper. Prosecution is what's pursued when administrative procedure can't work. Subjective opinion. Jaxyon's done the best so far at actually coming with data which has shown that at least in California there is wage theft happening that's under-reported and wage theft that is a crime but never produces criminal charges. You need to provide data for your arguments that it makes sense to do that. It also doesn't change the actual point they were making, just the new argument you've made.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:42
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Jaxyon posted:The point is that if I'm steeling a similar amount of cash, I'm in jail. Not an administrative procedure. Yeah, this is where I fall. It's the same amount of value, why is it worth less if it's my labor? I think comparing it strictly to petty theft isn't the best comparison though, as a whole lot of that happens without any police involvement.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:47
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Gumball Gumption posted:Subjective opinion. Jaxyon's done the best so far at actually coming with data which has shown that at least in California there is wage theft happening that's under-reported and wage theft that is a crime but never produces criminal charges. You need to provide data for your arguments that it makes sense to do that. Multiple people have already described how the process works, including the calmatters article. The point of the administrative procedure is to address the same ends. This isn't some sort of surprise or revelation, this is really basic regulatory policy and administrative law.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:56
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Solkanar512 posted:Yeah, this is where I fall. It's the same amount of value, why is it worth less if it's my labor? Honestly I think it "makes sense" under the current system in that companies have too much leverage and it is going to be faster and easier to recover the wages through administrative actions if they know they're unlikely to see criminal charges. You as an individual do not have that leverage. I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer here. I don't think it would actually make sense to go after every instance to the full extent of the law. But it is also a very obvious example of the power imbalances and contradictions in our society. It is a place where it is really easy to see the flaws. Discendo Vox posted:Multiple people have already described how the process works, including the calmatters article. The point of the administrative procedure is to address the same ends. This isn't some sort of surprise or revelation, this is really basic regulatory policy and administrative law. Explaining a process isn't justifying if it's the right one or the best one. I'm not asking you to explain it since I understand how it works. I'm saying that your previous post is subjective without anything to back it up. Hell, I even think you're right. Just posting subjectively in an argument that is desperate for some data to actually back up what both sides are saying.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:01
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Jaxyon posted:The point is that if I'm steeling a similar amount of cash, I'm in jail. Not an administrative procedure. Depends on context. If you underpay a bill or overcharge someone for something, some situation where there's actual contractual change of funds involved, it's likely to go through an administrative procedure before it becomes a lawsuit or criminal case. Similarly, if your manager is literally lifting cash out of your wallet when it's in the employee locker room or something, that's gonna be a different path than if they shorted you an hour on your paycheck.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:14
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Gumball Gumption posted:If people want to show the frequency of x happening they should just post hard data showing if X does or doesn't happen a lot, not cherry picked examples back and forth. Three criminal cases does not tell me the frequency is high. A handful of class action lawsuits also doesn't tell me if the frequency is low. The original thing I was responding to was "I don't know of anyone who goes to jail [for wage theft]". I responded with some cases of people going to jail for wage theft, as well as a potential reason why they've never heard of it happening. Arguing about the actual frequency is, I think, a conversational dead end. I don't think there's much in the way of hard data out there, and to be honest, do any of us really need specific numbers? If we're just discussing whether it happens as often as we think it should happen, then specifics aren't really important - people can lay out expectations like (for instance) "the majority of wage theft cases should result in prison time", and then we can discuss whether that's the case now, why it isn't, and whether it should be.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:21
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Killer robot posted:Depends on context. If you underpay a bill or overcharge someone for something, some situation where there's actual contractual change of funds involved, it's likely to go through an administrative procedure before it becomes a lawsuit or criminal case. Similarly, if your manager is literally lifting cash out of your wallet when it's in the employee locker room or something, that's gonna be a different path than if they shorted you an hour on your paycheck. Yes the context is "something a poor person is likely to do" vs "something a rich person or institution is likely to do", with the poor going to jail and the others getting administrative procedures.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:26
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it's not treated as a criminal thing because the restitution that people want is to get paid what they're owed. as far as I've ever heard the enforcement structures around state labor board/bureaus/divisions work well with by far the biggest issues being with workers not having ever been taught their rights nor informed that there is any recourse and particularly not any effective recourse. personally I'd take no issue with treating it as a crime as willful wagetheft is unbelievably lovely behavior. On an absolute level, including some classes on 'your rights as a worker' into school curriculums would likely have a greater benefit because afaict lack of knowledge of one's rights is by far the biggest issue. I've never heard a suggestion that the enforcement mechanisms lack teeth, very much the opposite Bear Enthusiast posted:gently caress off with your tildes. Also I feel like the American economic system is based around a lot of people not getting paid as much as they could/can/should be. Or just effectively nothing. Why wouldn't it be? Not paying people at all for labor is a separate issue from paying people less than the absolute value of their labor, idk what you're getting angry about there. It's not an issue of economic systems, it's an issue of individual greed. American capitalism, for all its failures, specifically requires workers getting paid to function and on an institution level resources get allocated to making sure that happens with the vast majority of failures happening in industries that are trying to exist on the periphery. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 01:50
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Gumball Gumption posted:First story appears to be Department of Labor administrative actions with no criminal charges. And zero of them are class actions.
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Dec 20, 2022 02:35
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DeadlyMuffin posted:And zero of them are class actions. I should have paid attention to the title. This really is somethingpedantic.com Anyways a cool trick is to try searching "wage theft class action". You'll get multiple cases. Including me info from Calmatters who really are proving to be good subject matter exerts here. Thanks Jaxyon for the original post, I don't think I would of paid attention to this article as much if I wasn't already aware. https://calmatters.org/inside-calma...hlight-project/
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Dec 20, 2022 02:41
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Jaxyon posted:Yes the context is "something a poor person is likely to do" vs "something a rich person or institution is likely to do", with the poor going to jail and the others getting administrative procedures. Twenty years ago or so now I spent a summer working in a liquor store. I worked the register. Every week we were, somehow, $20 short at the register. The store owner always docked our salaries and said we must've just screwed up and it was our fault. The only week we were on target was the week that the store owner took vacation. That week we were within a nickel. Dude was taking $20 out of the register every week and docking us for, it just because he could and because he knew we had no way to prove otherwise. I currently have a client who has been in jail for the past three months and will be in jail over Christmas and New Year's . . .. for allegedly taking a few hundred dollars from a cash register while working as a cashier. . . . .roughly a decade ago, at a store that closed seven years ago. The prosecutor refused to agree to lift his bond. No one is even asking for restitution; there's no store left for restitution to be made to. The system is working as designed. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 03:26
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Herstory Begins Now posted:it's not treated as a criminal thing because the restitution that people want is to get paid what they're owed. as far as I've ever heard the enforcement structures around state labor board/bureaus/divisions work well with by far the biggest issues being with workers not having ever been taught their rights nor informed that there is any recourse and particularly not any effective recourse.
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Dec 20, 2022 03:41
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https://twitter.com/jordangreennc/status/1604923806174380038 This is interesting, doubt the FBI is going to actually do anything about it though
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Dec 20, 2022 03:51
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