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i am a moron posted:She cracked a lot of eggs to make the omelet of modernity
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Dec 20, 2022 03:32
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Gaius Marius posted:She's a loving weirdo She was like Harry. Just not as drunk and empathetic.
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Dec 20, 2022 04:26
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Dolores Dei. She was great, but she wasn’t very good
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Dec 20, 2022 04:28
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Drunk and Empathetic. yes.
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Dec 20, 2022 05:25
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MariusLecter posted:She was like Harry. Just not as drunk and empathetic. If one is to have an alien god-queen, I'd hope that Empathy would be their defining trait rather than the trait they're defined by not having.
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Dec 20, 2022 05:28
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God this game is so good at forcing people to assert their political stances with their ethics ain't it?
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Dec 20, 2022 08:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:If Kim isn't a good person, who (in the game) is? Bird Nest's Roy. Lena, the Cryptozoologist's wife. Annette is a good girl. Cindy the Skull's doing more practical work to improve the neighborhood than anyone else. Easy Leo. Gaston Martin. Those two dorks in the communard vision quest, once they've been told to stop being jerks to Cindy.
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Dec 20, 2022 08:45
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King Carnivore posted:I think a central thesis of the game is that taking a politically cowardly stance like “incremental change” means you inherently end up supporting the status quo, and all the brutality that comes with it. The game is not under the delusion that "shooting people in the head during the revolution" is the only form of political violence. It is well aware that the constant systemic denial of vital resources required to live to the underclass that is a necessary requirements for the functioning of the status quo is also political violence, and of a much larger scale.
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Dec 20, 2022 09:42
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Also re: good people: EASY LEO – "Guys like Mr. Evrart and Mr. Edgar -- his brother -- are real good guys, made Martinaise what it is today... Mr. Evrart and Mr. Edgar and I went to the same school, we did, when we were boys..." GASTON MARTIN – "Everyone in Martinaise knows the Claire brothers," he says solemnly. "I taught these boys human studies and history in the gymnasium."
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Dec 20, 2022 10:29
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The real question isn't who is good, instead the question is why E. Claire is named after a pastry
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Dec 20, 2022 10:47
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Everyone west of the river is good. Except Gary obviously.
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Dec 20, 2022 11:42
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Orange Devil posted:Also re: good people: They are centrists and thus satisfied with the status quo. Which makes them Moralists in the language of the game. They are loyal to the status quo and refuse any change like a Moralist would, they just believe that the Claires are currently charge. Their arguments for refusing to oppose (the moralist version of supporting if you don't remember), the Claires are exactly the same as Kim or any normal Moralist would give you for not opposing the Moralintern.
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Dec 20, 2022 12:01
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Zeniel posted:Everyone west of the river is good. Except Gary obviously. Uhhh... Joyce? Aside from our protagonists, Joyce is the only character with *mobility*. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 12:43
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VictualSquid posted:They are centrists and thus satisfied with the status quo. Which makes them Moralists in the language of the game. Yes, the people who are supporting strikers who are deliberately rebelling against the working conditions imposed upon them by the owners of White Pines are keeping the status quo.
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Dec 20, 2022 15:52
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Samovar posted:Yes, the people who are supporting strikers who are deliberately rebelling against the working conditions imposed upon them by the owners of White Pines are keeping the status quo. No, the people who are supporting the Strikers are doing so out of conviction. They would and have supported the Strikers before they became the de-facto authority in Martinese. Gaston and the other people who are "not opposing"(TM) the Strikers are doing so because they have accepted them as the new status quo. They would and have supported the Moralintern rule before the Strikers became the de-facto authority in Martinese. e: I do think that recognizing that difference is part of the core message of the game. VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 17:08
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Asking "who is good" is kind of a bad question for Disco Elysium. The real thing to ask is who is actually a bad person? Aside from like, Ruud, that is
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Dec 20, 2022 17:44
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All the mercs, Joyce, Gary, the racist lorry driver, René and probably Cuno's dad and maybe Klaasje.
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Dec 20, 2022 19:09
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Sunday friend
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Dec 20, 2022 19:15
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Oh yeah, definitely that fucker.
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Dec 20, 2022 19:16
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I'm really glad that Disco Elysium pushed the RPG genre out of its outmoded ways of thinking. *scribbles out Neutral on the alignment chart and puts Moralist*
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Dec 20, 2022 19:17
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Bit late to the convo but I swear Kim says he used to be a moralist when he was young, not that he currently is one.
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Dec 20, 2022 19:29
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VictualSquid posted:They are centrists and thus satisfied with the status quo. Which makes them Moralists in the language of the game. Moralism is the ideology of Dolores Dei, the ideology of our Enlightenment. It is a rational humanist ideology. A secular religion that values stability and decorum and has a clinical utilitarian perspective on human well being. It is not an ideology of meaningless triangulating centrism between various extreme ideologies or whatever, it defined the center before any of those other ideologies even existed. Presumably in Dolores Dei's time it struck out far to the left of the status quo of royalism, and was then still identifiably Moralism. It is synonymous with centrism in the same way the Sun in the center of the solar system- it is an ideology, with a very particular point of view, that has absolutely the most weight in the world at the moment. Gaston and Leo are not Moralists. Being apolitical isn't being a Moralist. Having politics superseded by community connections isn't Moralist. VictualSquid posted:No, the people who are supporting the Strikers are doing so out of conviction. They would and have supported the Strikers before they became the de-facto authority in Martinese. People coming to support political positions through non-ideological paths is actually pretty normal. If anything characters like that are in the game to emphasize that it's not all about thought cabinets and Correct ideologies, and a lot of the messy work on the ground is personal connections with people just trying to live their lives.
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Dec 20, 2022 19:37
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Orange Devil posted:All the mercs, Joyce, Gary, the racist lorry driver, René and probably Cuno's dad and maybe Klaasje. And all of those people have believable reasons for being that way! The mercs all have horrible traumatic childhoods, Joyce's brain is being fried by the Pale, Gary's a wimp who wants to be cooler than he is, the lorry driver is what zero pussy does to a motherfucker, Rene's Narnia-deep in the closet, Cuno's dad lives in Revachol and Klaasje is actively being hunted for by the government. Every character, even the most vile ones, are human beings at their hearts and have real reasons for espousing their sometimes abhorrent philosophies. Except for Ruud, seriously, that dude is terrifying E: Oh yeah and the Sunday Friend is the evilest guy in the game that is true
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Dec 20, 2022 19:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:If Kim isn't a good person, who (in the game) is? Egg Head. Don't Call Abigail maybe. dunno. never really got the chance to get acquainted with him properly
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Dec 20, 2022 20:19
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Mystic Mongol posted:Bird Nest's Roy. Lena, the Cryptozoologist's wife. Annette is a good girl. Cindy the Skull's doing more practical work to improve the neighborhood than anyone else. Easy Leo. Gaston Martin. Those two dorks in the communard vision quest, once they've been told to stop being jerks to Cindy. Bird Nest's Roy -- capitalist, knowingly sold a gun to a mentally ill person Lena, the Cryptozoologist's wife. -- little bit racist, hangs out with a fascist Easy Leo and Annette lack their own agency (due to dementia and juvenility, respectively); they are not evil but they are also not actively *good*. Cindy the Skull, Egghead and the other Discotheque Kids, and a few other characters are potentially good in response to the player's actions but at the start of the game are either ineffectual or actively harmful (e.g., the music club isn't going to be a music club, it's just drugs). Kim is, from the start, on his own initiative, actively trying to make the world a better place within the limits of his abilities. I mean, the real answer is http://wondermark.com/1k33/ but. nevertheless, Kim has a saint's icon for a reason
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Dec 20, 2022 20:28
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:but. nevertheless, Kim has a saint's icon for a reason Because that's the symbol for moralism. It is a religion with a church and everything.
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Dec 20, 2022 20:32
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Because that's the symbol for moralism. It is a religion with a church and everything. Do any other characters in the entire game have a similarly halo'd portrait? (I don't think any do, but haven't done any checking beyond a quick google, could be wrong)
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Dec 20, 2022 20:36
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Eiba posted:What the heck? They are not Moralists in any sense of the word! So you believe that there would be nobody valuing stability and decorum in a hypthetical world where Dolores Day never existed? Also, I seem to remember the game stating that saying "none of the above" to all political question is Moralist. Which means that Moralism as the game interprets it is centrism. I should look it up, but OK I am going to assume that the game never interprets "apolitical" statements as moralist. And in that case me calling Gaston and Leo moralists was wrong. I am saying that Gaston (and Leo) joined the Union for different reasons then people like Maneana. You are the one implying that one must be worse then the other. Or that that implies that they aren't normal. I am specifically saying that they joined the Union for personal and non-ideological reasons. And that Kim supports(supported) the Moralintern for the same reasons. And that is good storytelling and realistic characterdesign for them to do so. I am specifically arguing against people assuming that they could only support those ideas out of fundamental ideological reasons. e: and yes I do consider the fact that there are people joining political movements for alternatively entirely personal, local or ideological reasons an important part of the game, because most other works just insist there is only one possibility. VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 20:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Do any other characters in the entire game have a similarly halo'd portrait? Kim's halo is unique to him, but there's a few interesting motifs in the portraits:
Youremother fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2022 20:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Do any other characters in the entire game have a similarly halo'd portrait? Jean Vicquemare, sort of.  
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Dec 20, 2022 20:48
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Youremother posted:Asking "who is good" is kind of a bad question for Disco Elysium. The real thing to ask is who is actually a bad person?
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Dec 20, 2022 21:07
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That guy was a hero 
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Dec 20, 2022 21:09
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VictualSquid posted:So you believe that there would be nobody valuing stability and decorum in a hypthetical world where Dolores Day never existed? quote:I am saying that Gaston (and Leo) joined the Union for different reasons then people like Maneana. You are the one implying that one must be worse then the other. Or that that implies that they aren't normal. If the game gives you Moralism points for shrugging your shoulders, that's not because Moralism is neutral, but by not taking a side in that particular instance is de facto siding with the Moralists. I don't recall if there are specific instances of that, so I could be wrong. In any case if you were not associating Gaston with the implicit violence of Moralist hegemony then my objections are just semantic. To me it's clear that the word "Moralism" means something a lot more specific than just "centrism." If you're drawing thematic parallels I would actually agree. This game depicts a lot of ways of people interacting with power structures and you're right about the similarities in the type of interactions being depicted. Gaston and Leo are basically just fine with who's in charge, just like young Kim was. Though to this day Kim says the Moralintern "isn't all bad," which is quite a thing to say. I feel like he would still be an avowed Moralist for ideological reasons, not just passive reasons, were it not for how terrible the Moralintern has obviously made his world.
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Dec 20, 2022 21:25
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Harry is a piece of poo poo who terrorized people hanging out at the whirling because he could
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Dec 20, 2022 21:28
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VictualSquid posted:I should look it up, but OK I am going to assume that the game never interprets "apolitical" statements as moralist. some of them are Regular Law Official, others are World's Most Laughable Centrist
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Dec 20, 2022 21:29
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All superstars are though
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Dec 20, 2022 21:29
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i am a moron posted:Harry is a piece of poo poo who terrorized people hanging out at the whirling because he could
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Dec 20, 2022 21:29
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To an extent being apolitical is being moralist because because the status quo is moralist.i am a moron posted:Harry is a piece of poo poo who terrorized people hanging out at the whirling because he could He has also canonically crippled a man for repeated public disturbance and uh, according to the sorry cop thought quote:Here it is. Hard facts from the man you are. You once jerked off in the locker room and were caught. You held a young woman by the arm and kept her in your apartment for 20 minutes against her will. That's right, these are not flights of fancy. These are *real deeds*, Harry, emerging from the darkness of your past. You tried shooting a fleeing suspect in the foot but hit him in the pelvis, crippling him for life. And above all, you let life defeat you. All the gifts your parents gave you, all the love and patience of your friends, you drowned in a neurotoxin. You let misery win. And it will keep on winning till you die -- or overcome it. Harry's not a good dude. christmas boots fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 21:30
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Youremother posted:Rene's Narnia-deep in the closet wait what
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Dec 20, 2022 22:29
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dead gay comedy forums posted:wait what Go do a Fascist Harry run, the fascism quest is unironically one of the best in the game
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Dec 20, 2022 22:35
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