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Arivia posted:I have to wonder if there’s some way Wizards can de-authorize previous versions of the OGL, at least with the One D&D SRD. Not a lawyer so I don’t know if it’s possible, but they’ve got to have some way to get around this. Unlikely, or else they would have killed off Pathfinder during 4e.
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Dec 21, 2022 23:08
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Roadie posted:So basically, a big middle finger to automated or semi-automated VTTs like Foundry, as well as CRPGs like Solasta. Well, gently caress me I guess. That's a pretty direct blow against the one thing I've actually used the OGL for. I guess it's not relevant unless I tried to update it to 6e, which I probably wasn't going to do anyway, but it's still pretty obnoxious. Edit: Arivia posted:I have to wonder if there’s some way Wizards can de-authorize previous versions of the OGL, at least with the One D&D SRD. Not a lawyer so I don’t know if it’s possible, but they’ve got to have some way to get around this. My understanding of this has always been that, whatever the laws are, if a big corporation decides to legally harass a person or small company there isn't anything they can really do to fight back without going bankrupt. I think the popular opinion cost making it not worth it has always been the actual defense people have, not the US legal system. If they decided to throw their weight around they could definitely get a big chilling effect, but it probably wouldn't be worth it for them. That said, VTTs might be making enough money that they don't fall under the "small business" as listed above, so maybe the above wouldn't even apply. OtspIII fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Dec 22, 2022 |
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Dec 22, 2022 06:26
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https://twitter.com/ivy_sly_/status/1602811911510568960 https://twitter.com/HorizonOminous/status/1605696551439024128 Dave Sirlin, known for works like Chess 2 and ripping the graphic design off of other creators for his own projects, is taking legal action against anybody who uses the word "Yomi" in the name of their games.
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Dec 22, 2022 09:42
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Kai Tave posted:https://twitter.com/ivy_sly_/status/1602811911510568960 This came up in the board game thread recently (starting here). We were mostly under the impression it was a trademark issue rather than a DMCA / copyright one. I'm not a lawyer, just a layperson who is casually interested in law, but a DMCA claim seems a lot harder and less reasonable than a trademark issue would be for many reasons. Of course, the one thing everyone can agree on this holiday season is gently caress David Sirlin.
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Dec 22, 2022 10:39
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Let's design Chess 4 and sue him right back
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Dec 22, 2022 10:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:Let's design Chess 4 and sue him right back Someone beat you to the first part.
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Dec 22, 2022 11:51
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Magnetic North posted:This came up in the board game thread recently (starting here). We were mostly under the impression it was a trademark issue rather than a DMCA / copyright one. I'm not a lawyer, just a layperson who is casually interested in law, but a DMCA claim seems a lot harder and less reasonable than a trademark issue would be for many reasons. Yeah idk if they meant trademark instead of DMCA there because "your name sounds too close to ours" is usually a trademark case. This is one of those instances where if it was anybody other than Dave Sirlin, a guy who has very blatantly made a living by tapdancing across the line of "homage" and "just straight-up plagiarism" while acting like god's own gift to gaming, it would be lovely but one of those things where you shrug and say "well okay but I guess he's gotta protect his trademarks," but he is that guy so gently caress him.
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Dec 22, 2022 11:59
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Leperflesh posted:it brings a new exciting unboxing element to the wandering monster roll I want this to be the party.
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Dec 22, 2022 12:31
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…soooort of. Anything already released under the old license is safe in perpetuity. WotC can at any point revoke the offer, however, for future works. They have to publicly say they’re revoking the license offer, however. And they probably won’t. So probably you will be able to keep using it.
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Dec 22, 2022 13:15
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https://twitter.com/Sirlin/status/1603295451494555655 I love a chance to dunk on Sirlin as much as anyone but this one wasn't really on him, and it was all sorted out a week ago.
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Dec 22, 2022 17:38
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It's still on him for trademarking a word that is both a common fighting game term he shouldn't have any right to, and an actual word in Japanese that he also shouldn't have any right to.
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Dec 22, 2022 18:07
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Anyone have the video of Sirlin in class bringing up yomi? Been looking since this conversation started.
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Dec 22, 2022 18:13
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Lemon-Lime posted:It's still on him for trademarking a word that is both a common fighting game term he shouldn't have any right to, and an actual word in Japanese that he also shouldn't have any right to. It's a trade dress thing, it's the reason why Apple can go after people who try to use Apple in computing contexts even though it's just an english word. But can't go after someone selling fruit. Or if someone decided to make an Apple Branded car.
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Dec 22, 2022 18:24
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Kurieg posted:It's a trade dress thing, it's the reason why Apple can go after people who try to use Apple in computing contexts even though it's just an english word. But can't go after someone selling fruit. Or if someone decided to make an Apple Branded car. That's a great example, because Apple Records was extremely sore at Apple (computers) for using the name Apple. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer First legal dispute was pretty much, hey, it's unmistakable! One is a computer and one is a record, nobody will be confused! quote:As a condition of the settlement, Apple Computer agreed not to enter the music business, and Apple Corps agreed not to enter the computer business.
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Dec 22, 2022 18:33
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Lynx Winters posted:https://twitter.com/Sirlin/status/1603295451494555655 It absolutely is on him. Going after some tiny indie dev is not at all necessary to protect his mark, even if they're both video games that abstract fighting games in some way. No one, and I mean no one, was ever in any danger of thinking Yomi Hustle was sponsored by Sirlin's Yomi brand or confusing it with Yomi itself. And those are the only causes of action available to Sirlin for a trademark claim. Like I can see how this claim is stronger than the claim against Yomi Domini, but Sirlin's hands are not tied in forcing someone to change their title, despite what he might say.
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Dec 22, 2022 18:57
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canyoneer posted:That's a great example, because Apple Records was extremely sore at Apple (computers) for using the name Apple. why would you quote this and not include the absolute best part, about the sound all the Apple computers made back then quote:In 1991, another settlement involving payment of around US$26.5 million (equivalent to $52.72 million in 2021) to Apple Corps was reached.[4]: 581–582 This time, an Apple Computer employee named Jim Reekes had included a sampled system sound called Chimes to the Macintosh operating system (the sound was later renamed to sosumi, to be read phonetically as "so sue me").
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Dec 22, 2022 19:30
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Nickoten posted:It absolutely is on him. Going after some tiny indie dev is not at all necessary to protect his mark, even if they're both video games that abstract fighting games in some way. No one, and I mean no one, was ever in any danger of thinking Yomi Hustle was sponsored by Sirlin's Yomi brand or confusing it with Yomi itself. And those are the only causes of action available to Sirlin for a trademark claim. Like I can see how this claim is stronger than the claim against Yomi Domini, but Sirlin's hands are not tied in forcing someone to change their title, despite what he might say. I am not a lawyer trademark is not like copyright insofar as trademarks that are not defended risk being lost. Even if you let it slide for someone small, if someone big comes around and could legitimately jeopardize your brand identity, it is my understanding that previous allowance could be used as justification to get your trademark voided or genericized. So that would be a reason to do it outside of just being a huge rear end in a top hat, which we all agree he is.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:45
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Nickoten posted:It absolutely is on him. Going after some tiny indie dev is not at all necessary to protect his mark, even if they're both video games that abstract fighting games in some way. No one, and I mean no one, was ever in any danger of thinking Yomi Hustle was sponsored by Sirlin's Yomi brand or confusing it with Yomi itself. And those are the only causes of action available to Sirlin for a trademark claim. Like I can see how this claim is stronger than the claim against Yomi Domini, but Sirlin's hands are not tied in forcing someone to change their title, despite what he might say. Basically every sentence of this is wrong, it's honestly kind of impressive.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:54
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Rockman Reserve posted:Basically every sentence of this is wrong, it's honestly kind of impressive. Love your confidence here! Dare I ask you to substantiate this? Magnetic North posted:I am not a lawyer trademark is not like copyright insofar as trademarks that are not defended risk being lost. Even if you let it slide for someone small, if someone big comes around and could legitimately jeopardize your brand identity, it is my understanding that previous allowance could be used as justification to get your trademark voided or genericized. So that would be a reason to do it outside of just being a huge rear end in a top hat, which we all agree he is. Trademarks don't get lost just because someone did not take legal action in some situation where they could have. There needs to be some indication that the mark itself has become weaker due to other uses of the mark becoming common. When your mark is a normal Japanese word, that's going to happen regardless. I don't think there has ever been a case where avoiding this kind of action has led to genericization of a mark. Companies use the duty to police as a PR excuse all the time but it's not really what they make it out to be. The whole thing about trademark owners having a "duty to police" is often misstated; what it really means is that it is the trademark owner's duty, not the US government's, to enforce their trademark and prevent this genericization from happening. It's not that you can go into court and say "X mark holder didn't enforce their trademark in this or that situation, and that's why their trademark is invalid." So yes there is a responsibility on the part of the mark holder to ensure their mark remains distinctive, but this is not at all the same as an obligation to assert an infringement exists at every possible opportunity, despite the fact that this is often used by companies for PR reasons or by law firms to sell your their services.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:33
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Trademarks *can* be lost due to a consistent pattern of failure to enforce against violators. That doesn’t mean a one-off failure or choice not to enforce, but an ongoing pattern of behavior. That absolutely gets used as an excuse to enforce more broadly than is needed, though.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:36
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Nickoten posted:Love your confidence here! Dare I ask you to substantiate this? I mean would you like to refer to the other posts talking about trademark defense, or the multiple people in TGD who outright admitted they thought it was a Sirlin project, or what? You cut kind of a broad swath of falsehoods there.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:54
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Kalman posted:Trademarks *can* be lost due to a consistent pattern of failure to enforce against violators. That doesn’t mean a one-off failure or choice not to enforce, but an ongoing pattern of behavior. Kind of. It's not that you lose the mark because you demonstrated a pattern of failure to enforce it, but rather that the mark itself has become less distinctive, which can in some cases be entirely out of your control. There is also abandonment but that usually would require you to stop using the mark yourself, too. So when you enforce your trademark against someone in good faith, it's usually to avoid two particular big things that can go wrong with your mark: A) your mark is diluted or genericized or B) you bring suit against someone so long after they've deployed their similar mark that they're now entitled to a laches defense (i.e. that sitting on your rights for so long without taking action prejudiced the specific party you're filing against). Obviously B isn't relevant here, so it's really about A. And I don't think Sirlin was ever really in much danger that these indie games on Steam would dilute the distinctiveness of his mark. I assume his argument would be that they make it more common to associate the Japanese word "yomi" with observation or reading for an English-speaking audience, but I think this is kind of bullshit. Rockman Reserve posted:I mean would you like to refer to the other posts talking about trademark defense, or the multiple people in TGD who outright admitted they thought it was a Sirlin project, or what? You cut kind of a broad swath of falsehoods there. No, I'd like for you to explain what's wrong with that post, specifically. Nickoten fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Dec 22, 2022 |
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Dec 22, 2022 20:56
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Has this ever come up for Diablo or games similarly titled with just a single normal foreign word?
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Dec 22, 2022 20:58
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My understanding is that the legally correct action if you object to Yomi, the word, being trademarked for use for boardgames and videogames, is to challenge the trademark. There is a period between application and approval where you can do that, or after the fact you can do it via some other approach. That would probably fail; there are several other Yomi trademarks (in other realms of products, not infringing) and have been for decades. Unfortunately you can't link to the search results but you can go use TESS, the online search engine at the USPTO, here: https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk. Click "basic word search" and type in Yomi in the search bar, you can leave all the other options at their defaults, hit Submit Query. One of the active registrations is Sirlins', 86743331. We don't like Sirlin and we don't like bullies and so it suuuuure feels right to accuse Sirlin of bullying some small-time game maker for making a game with the word Yomi in the title. Why would he do that? Isn't that mean? Surely this won't actually impact his business or brand? Right? However: this is just how trademark works, in the US and a bunch of other countries. If you don't bother to do a trademark search before you start marketing a product, you risk a lawsuit that you will probably lose, and any business's lawyers will advise them to aggressively defend their trademarks. That many companies don't do so shouldn't be read as meaning that it is therefore wise, in a legal sense, not to defend your trademarks; instead I think it should be seen as many businesses being poorly managed. It does not matter if there are common words, in English or any other language, in an approved trademark: that's the job of the USPTO to judge, and they approved this trademark. Note that the trademark application includes a translation of the Japanese word, so the USPTO is informed of the meaning and can use that as part of their determination of trademark validity. It's true that some trademarks are denied because they're too vague, or too generic; the word or phrase is already super commonly used in that trade and it'd create chaos to let someone suddenly trademark it. So like, you probably can't make "Game" a trademark for your games. Or even "Fighting Game". But "Yomi" is clearly just as fine as, say, Riot's Games' trademark of "L" (90397708). Or "Teamfight Tactics" or "Yasuo" etc., just to pick a random other company with a bunch of fighting games. I think it's perfectly fine to be mad at Sirlin for plenty of other reasons without overselling the evilness of this apparently already mutually-settled trademark issue.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:02
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Thank you for clarifying all those distinctions that I was not aware of. I think many of the commentators have gotten a crash course on copyright what with the old RIAA lawsuits and later the Viacom YouTube suits that lead to modern ContentId. That exposure is likely a source of some of the confusion, including some of my own. Frankly, trademark is something your average person interacts with so much more infrequently... but if you're a business such as making a game, well, we can see what happens.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:03
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Nickoten posted:No, I'd like for you to explain what's wrong with that post, specifically. It was all predicated on there being no likelihood of confusion so no possibility for dilution or reason for a defense when that is just wrong on the face of it: Some Numbers posted:I will say that while all of this is true, when someone told me about Yomi Hustle and said it was a fighting game, I did immediately assume it was based on Sirlin's Yomi. Jimbozig posted:If someone released a board game called "Clank Hustle," my first thought would be that this is an expansion to or variation on the popular board game Clank. It absolutely makes sense that someone might think a game called Yomi Hustle might be an expansion/variant/sequel for Yomi. MizuZero posted:when I first learned of yomi hustle I thought sirlin was involved. if I saw a video game that used the words azul, agricola*, or tzolk’in in the title, my immediate thought would be that it was affiliated with or a reimplementation of the board game. the same is true even for titles like 7 wonders or pandemic.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:05
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Lol I just came back to the thread to quote those three exact quotes.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:08
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Leperflesh posted:My understanding is that the legally correct action if you object to Yomi, the word, being trademarked for use for boardgames and videogames, is to challenge the trademark. There is a period between application and approval where you can do that, or after the fact you can do it via some other approach. That would probably fail; there are several other Yomi trademarks (in other realms of products, not infringing) and have been for decades. Unfortunately you can't link to the search results but you can go use TESS, the online search engine at the USPTO, here: https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk. Click "basic word search" and type in Yomi in the search bar, you can leave all the other options at their defaults, hit Submit Query. One of the active registrations is Sirlins', 86743331. You are ascribing a much higher standard of approval to the USPTO granting a mark than actually exists. While the mark is presumed valid once the USPTO grants it, realistically this does not involve them making much of a judgment on whether the mark would stand up in court later. For what it's worth, it is fine to agree with Sirlin that these titles infringe on his mark, I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me on that. But what I'm speaking out against here is the idea that he's obligated to do this to protect his rights. That is not at all true. Rockman Reserve posted:It was all predicated on there being no likelihood of confusion so no possibility for dilution or reason for a defense when that is just wrong on the face of it: I was being hyperbolic when I said literally no person anywhere could ever mistake this for a Sirlin game, though I disagree that two people on TGD happening to make that mistake constitutes a likelihood of confusion. If the only point you disagree with is whether you think the things can be confused sure, whatever. But most of that post is about Sirlin not being in danger of losing his mark if he doesn't do this. If you have a specific problem with that statement, say it and why. Otherwise, don't parrot false ideas about trademark law that tend to amount to corporate propaganda.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:17
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Yeah, my main takeaway from all this is that we wouldn't be this mad if it was anyone besides Sirlin. This whole situation is annoying but fine when you remove all the names, you know? "A guy who helped popularize a term in the North American FGC named a game after it, and now a cool game named itself a bit too similarly so it needs to change its name" is... fine. Annoying, but fine. It's the legal system working as intended. But David Sirlin's a guy whose asked the community at large to look past him wearing his influences on his sleeve to such an extent that everyone side-eyes him (to put it diplomatically), so him not looking past this feels like it breaks the entire social contract that let us put up with his poo poo for all this time. Now it's getting under our collective skin and we've posted about it for an entire page.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:20
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Nickoten posted:I was being hyperbolic when I said literally no person anywhere could ever mistake this for a Sirlin game, though I disagree that two people on TGD happening to make that mistake constitutes a likelihood of confusion. If the only point you disagree with is whether you think the things can be confused sure, whatever. But most of that post is about Sirlin not being in danger of losing his mark if he doesn't do this. If you have a specific problem with that statement, say it and why. Otherwise, don't parrot false ideas about trademark law that tend to amount to corporate propaganda. It's really easy to find law firms advising to defend trademark or there's consequences. For example, top google result for me, https://www.panitchlaw.com/waiting-to-enforce-your-trademark-rights/ This goes into Laches as well. I think my take is not "if you don't defend your trademark you'll definitely lose it" but rather "as a business owner, your legal advisor will likely advise you to aggressively defend your trademarks, and it's tough for me to blame a trademark holder for doing what their lawyers tell them to do."
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Dec 22, 2022 21:23
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I guess I'm confused about this idea that it has anything to do with the rightsholder being Sirlin, and kind of annoyed that this motive is being assigned to me. Does SA TG not like him? My beef is with the continual assertion that this kind of thing is normal and necessary, and that it's being done against some small shop like the Yomi Domini dev as opposed to, say, the people behind Trek to Yomi or Undernauts: Labyrinth of Yomi. You know, companies with capital that might actually be able to defend themselves. Leperflesh posted:It's really easy to find law firms advising to defend trademark or there's consequences. For example, top google result for me, https://www.panitchlaw.com/waiting-to-enforce-your-trademark-rights/ While I think that link is fundamentally a toaster trying to sell you bread (no hate, I say this as an attorney who has practiced IP in that context myself), it is worth specifically looking at what it says about the case it uses to illustrate the firm's point. As I mentioned above, that's an example of laches stopping you from pursuing your rights against the specific infringing party. If Sirlin were to wait years to go after Yomi Domini, this would be an analogous situation. Now all that said, I do sympathize with the idea that someone is going to do what their attorney tells them. But Sirlin is responsible for the things he does under advice from counsel, and that's going to include activity he doesn't fully understand (but which he asserts he does -- he tries to explain his legal argument in the Twitter comments). My whole thing here is that we should know the context behind what's being done here even if some of us think we'd do the same thing in similar circumstances and uncertainty. Nickoten fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 22, 2022 |
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Dec 22, 2022 21:23
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Is the OGL change being discussed in one of the many D&D threads, and if so, which one? It seems to have been drowned out here by lay people discussing IP law. (Thanks in advance.)
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Dec 22, 2022 21:26
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SA TG dislike him but the fighting game community fuckin haaaaate him
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Dec 22, 2022 21:26
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Bottom Liner posted:SA TG dislike him but the fighting game community fuckin haaaaate him Is there a primer on why(for both groups) for those of us who've never heard of him before?
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Dec 22, 2022 21:28
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Nickoten posted:I guess I'm confused about this idea that it has anything to do with the rightsholder being Sirlin, and kind of annoyed that this motive is being assigned to me. Does SA TG not like him? I'm not saying you specifically, if it helps. Just... there's a lot of people in the tradgames and fighting game communities who are really sick of the guy. Also, Trek to Yomi and Labyrinth of Yomi are both referring to Yomi the mythic Japanese underworld. Yomi Domini and Yomi Hustle were both about Yomi, the Japanese term for knowing the mind of your opponent, which is the same use of yomi that Sirlin named his game after and trademarked.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:33
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Hel posted:Is there a primer on why(for both groups) for those of us who've never heard of him before? For the trad games side, this is a very brief primer stolen from my Board Games OP, which I included among other issues because I knew Sirlin-bashing was a well enjoyed activity. Magnetic North posted:Sirlin Games: Speaking of Dominion rip-offs, Sirlin Games published Puzzle Strike, with a visual style that was a wholesale rip-off a fan-made Dominion remake. There's not much to talk about because it's super blatant. Donald X Vaccarino, designer of Dominion, tells a humorous story about meeting Sirlin and asking him about that guy. Also, in researching Sirlin for this topic, I discovered that there was another controversy: he allegedly ripped off a 1993 game from Reiner Knizia. The discussion from 10 years ago involves Penny Arcade of all people. I'm not familiar with the games, but a cursory look at the rules show they are quite similar. Whether this counts as inspiration or theft is admittedly blurrier in this case, but considering the other incident I would understand why people might not afford him the benefit of the doubt. Short answer: he's a thief. I don't know the fighting game side.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:38
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Hel posted:Is there a primer on why(for both groups) for those of us who've never heard of him before? The short version for the FGC side is that he's massively full of himself and his status as an expert game designer and keeps going "have you heard of Yomi, the Japanese term for knowing the mind of your opponent, I named a game after it you know" and how it's so hard to be an expert game designer who isn't treated with the respect that he deserves, while making games like Fantasy Strike that just aren't super successful because his character designs aren't cool enough to carry a full fighting game.
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Dec 22, 2022 21:40
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Lurks With Wolves posted:I'm not saying you specifically, if it helps. Just... there's a lot of people in the tradgames and fighting game communities who are really sick of the guy. I know that because I speak Japanese, but I don't think a consumer of average sophistication for the market the good is being sold in (the standard for this kind of action) would know that. And if they do, then this use of the word becomes descriptive of the game's contents, which is a situation where it is harder to enforce trademark even when confusion could arise. That's why I said earlier that I think it's lovely to assert that associating the Japanese word yomi with one of its english translations is one's brand. Magnetic North posted:For the trad games side, this is a very brief primer stolen from my Board Games OP, which I included among other issues because I knew Sirlin-bashing was a well enjoyed activity. What the gently caress. I had no idea! Nickoten fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 22, 2022 |
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Dec 22, 2022 21:40
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SkyeAuroline posted:Well poo poo, I only have a few ProAcryl paints but their synthetic brushes are the best I've found for metallic brushes that last so far. Unfortunate to hear. for the record Monument Hobbies replied to that post today on twitter to claim it was untrue and provide no other information so it's kind of at a he said she said situation atm
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Dec 22, 2022 21:41
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Nickoten posted:I know that because I speak Japanese, but I don't think a consumer of average sophistication for the market the good is being sold in (the standard for this kind of action) would know that. And if they do, then this use of the word becomes descriptive of the game's contents, which is a situation where it is harder to enforce trademark even when confusion could arise. That's why I said earlier that I think it's lovely to assert that associating the Japanese word yomi with one of its english translations is one's brand. Yeah, but it changes the context he would have trademarked it under in the first place. If he was suing those other uses of Yomi, it'd be a pure lawsuit farm situation like the people who managed to get the trademark for video games with Edge in the name. So him only doing trademark stuff for this use of yomi is... honestly kind of nice? EDIT: I mean, yeah, look at everything Leperflesh already said, but if he sued over Yomi-as-underworld it could reasonably be challenged for being too broad the way Edge was when those people sued EA over Mirror's Edge. The things he's suing for trademark over are as reasonable as it's going to be, at least. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Dec 22, 2022 |
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Dec 22, 2022 21:48
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