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So traditionally American (and European) wrestlers in Japanese promotions are booked as the heel gaijin, going back to the sport’s introduction. Who are the major exceptions? Whether they were introduced as faces or turned face over time, or even just went back and forth a bunch.
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Dec 25, 2022 16:41
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MassRafTer posted:This wasn't something he was hiding from the company like the Boogeyman tried Wait, what's the story here? This is my first time hearing of it.
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Dec 25, 2022 16:55
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Barry Bluejeans posted:Wait, what's the story here? This is my first time hearing of it. Boogeyman was on a tough enough tryout before being signed and insisted he was 30 until a judge asked to see his drivers license and he amended it immediately to “I’m 40”. I think I have those numbers right.
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Dec 25, 2022 17:00
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Maxwell Lord posted:So traditionally American (and European) wrestlers in Japanese promotions are booked as the heel gaijin, going back to the sport’s introduction. Who are the major exceptions? Whether they were introduced as faces or turned face over time, or even just went back and forth a bunch. The more I think about the more examples I find from recent NJPW: Juice Robinson and David Finlay, Moxley, Karl Anderson and Prince Devitt…especially in this recent run there’s been a number of foreigners* who have been treated as essentially hontai or ‘main group’ faces. *I know the phrase is used a lot but I don’t think it should be used the same way that, say, joshi is, because that form can come off as a slur in Japanese - the literal translation is ‘outside person.’ The longer form is gaikokujin (foreign country person) and is more neutral.
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Dec 25, 2022 17:43
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i'm kind of curious - how much of the trend of foreign faces in japan came along with flashier wrestling styles? i've always thought, unless you are doing some serious storytelling, it's hard to get a crowd to boo a guy doing flips. since foreign wrestler vs local wrestler is usually an easy shortcut for a face/heel dynamic with a crowd not familiar with any stories, i wonder if that started to change when the foreign wrestlers stopped just being brawlers and heaters
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Dec 25, 2022 17:56
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abraham linksys posted:i'm kind of curious - how much of the trend of foreign faces in japan came along with flashier wrestling styles? i've always thought, unless you are doing some serious storytelling, it's hard to get a crowd to boo a guy doing flips. since foreign wrestler vs local wrestler is usually an easy shortcut for a face/heel dynamic with a crowd not familiar with any stories, i wonder if that started to change when the foreign wrestlers stopped just being brawlers and heaters When i think "flashier wrestling styles" i dont exactly think of any of the guys named in Harperdc'd post
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Dec 25, 2022 17:57
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My partner signed me up for the ROH Honor Club for Christmas. My knowledge of ROH is very limited to shows I attended live whenever they came to Cincinnati and Dayton. What are the must watch shows?
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Dec 25, 2022 18:54
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Alaois posted:When i think "flashier wrestling styles" i dont exactly think of any of the guys named in Harperdc'd post I mean if you compare them to people like Stan Lane and Sid.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:55
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Maxwell Lord posted:So traditionally American (and European) wrestlers in Japanese promotions are booked as the heel gaijin, going back to the sport’s introduction. Who are the major exceptions? Whether they were introduced as faces or turned face over time, or even just went back and forth a bunch. the destroyer after a while, bruno sammartino, mil mascaras, dos caras, karl gotch to an extent
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Dec 25, 2022 18:57
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Smoking Crow posted:the destroyer after a while, bruno sammartino, mil mascaras, dos caras, karl gotch to an extent The Funks, too.
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Dec 25, 2022 19:03
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Hansen was over as face in the 90's as well in All Japan Kenny Omega started as a face in DDT, was a heel when he joined Bullet Club but than turned face
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Dec 25, 2022 19:43
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El Generico was always a face in DDT as well I think
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Dec 25, 2022 20:08
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apophenium posted:Has there ever been a reigning champion who would steal signature moves from opponents they defended against? Not using the moves against them but like "I beat Jericho last week, so I'm going to put my opponent in the Liontamer next defense." late and never a reigning champion I don't think, but Thief Ant in Chikara was mostly gimmicked around stealing moves and it was pretty cool
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Dec 25, 2022 20:13
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Foreigners are faces all the time in modern njpw. Will Ospreay is a good example especially around his move to HW in 2019. Even now since he turned heel the more loose heel/face alignments mean he's face half the time. Against okada at the g1 final Ospreay worked face and okada worked heel reversing the alignments they had at kingdom and the crowd happily accepted it. But lots of foreigners are face, Robbie eagles is a face, Alex zaybe is a face. Dare I say filthy tom is somehow a heel in the US and a face in Japan I feel there is just as much chance a new foreigner is a face these days Burn Down Canberra fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 25, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 20:22
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Maxwell Lord posted:So traditionally American (and European) wrestlers in Japanese promotions are booked as the heel gaijin, going back to the sport’s introduction. Who are the major exceptions? Whether they were introduced as faces or turned face over time, or even just went back and forth a bunch. I think The Destroyer was one of the first to break the trend of the evil American needing to be beaten by Rikidozan/Baba/Inoki, in '70s All Japan. After that it slowly becomes more common that foreigners can be the good guy too. And now we are at a point where foreigners are pretty much just another guy on the roster: Francesco Akira was over as a babyface in All Japan, now he's attached to United Empire in New Japan which means he's mostly heel? New Japan is kind of a sliding scale of alignment: Bullet Club heel, hontai face, then it comes from more face to more heel: CHAOS, LIJ, Suzukigun (RIP), UE. So the Empire might well be the babyface if it's Catch 22 vs SHO & Dick Togo, but if it's Cobb & O Khan against GBH or SANADA & Naito they probably work more heelish.
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Dec 25, 2022 21:17
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Thank you for the answers; I remember Billy and Chuck but not that they had a hairstylist. I now have another question, and I swear this is a serious question I truly ponder; could you do a homo-erotic tagteam, trio or stable today and have it work?
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Dec 26, 2022 07:05
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Pheromones in DDT are very popular domestically and from what I can tell are very unpopular with western fans, so it's probably wouldn't work very well in a major American promotion. Of the four of them Dieno is the only explicitly gay character but the other three also lean very heavily into homoerotic and gay panic spots which is a real fuckin shame because they are capable of having geniunely good matches.
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Dec 26, 2022 07:17
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A homoerotic team doesn't entail doing gay panic. They can just be gay.
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Dec 26, 2022 08:59
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I don't think Pheromones does a lot of gay panic per se there's plenty of times they do gay stuff and it's laughed off or embraced. It's more that they also do a lot of sexual assault stuff that the characters have a natural fear reaction to. Like a lot Japanese pop culture that intersects with queer identities it's complicated. There's a substantial female Pheromones fandom, presumably getting into the BL/Yaoi aspect of seeing attractive men touching each other, kissing and getting near naked. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 09:21
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fez_machine posted:I don't think Pheromones does a lot of gay panic per se there's plenty of times they do gay stuff and it's laughed off or embraced. It's more that they also do a lot of sexual assault stuff that the characters have a natural fear reaction to. Fair, I worded it poorly in my first response Nea posted:A homoerotic team doesn't entail doing gay panic. They can just be gay. Not necessarily, my point was that the team I was talking about do both, homoeroticism and leaning into dated stereotypes about gay men being more sexually aggressive which as they currently are would not work for a wider audience
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Dec 26, 2022 09:49
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But everyone loves The Acclaimed. And Dalton Castle and the Boys
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Dec 26, 2022 15:41
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I was going to say, the Acclaimed actually do a bit of the old gay joke business despite Bowens at least being openly gay, but Dalton Castle and the Boys are unabashedly fabulous and not I have never seen a suggestion we are supposed to be laughing at the presentation, they are too AWESOME for that
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Dec 26, 2022 16:53
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One of my favorite things about Dalton is how he's coded that way but as the greatest babyface in the world
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Dec 26, 2022 17:20
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Activate posted:I now have another question, and I swear this is a serious question I truly ponder; could you do a homo-erotic tagteam, trio or stable today and have it work? Team Bussy, and I'd say they'd work fine in AEW if coward tony would let intergender wrestling actually happen instead of the travesty that is mixed gender matches. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 17:26
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whats the difference between an intergender match and a mixed gender match?
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Dec 26, 2022 17:34
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Kvlt! posted:whats the difference between an intergender match and a mixed gender match? Intergender can have men/women wrestling each other where mixed usually has just men vs men and women vs women
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Dec 26, 2022 17:41
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Oh wait yeah you're right it already exists it's Dalton and the boys and they're over as hell at least with nea
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Dec 26, 2022 17:49
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It was cool to see them skirting the rules for it at the New Japan/Stardom crossover show with the women very clearly wanting to fight the men on equal terms but being constrained by the format before Tanahashi broke bad and put the boots to Maika like a true hero Or stuff like ASUKA winning the KO-D Tag belts with MAO, you didn't have to think too hard on it because ASUKA rules and is a match for anyone
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Dec 26, 2022 17:49
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CommonShore posted:One of my favorite things about Dalton is how he's coded that way but as the greatest babyface in the world It’s so good
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Dec 26, 2022 18:50
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I'd say Dalton/the Boys and the Acclaimed's scissoring thing are both examples of queer-coded stuff being used by babyfaces in a not-lovely way; the audience is laughing and cheering with them, not at them. It's pretty great.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:07
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CombineThresher posted:I'd say Dalton/the Boys and the Acclaimed's scissoring thing are both examples of queer-coded stuff being used by babyfaces in a not-lovely way; the audience is laughing and cheering with them, not at them. It's pretty great. Agreed
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Dec 26, 2022 20:55
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SG Bamboo posted:It was cool to see them skirting the rules for it at the New Japan/Stardom crossover show with the women very clearly wanting to fight the men on equal terms but being constrained by the format before Tanahashi broke bad and put the boots to Maika like a true hero I haven't watched the show yet but the gif I saw of Chihiro Hashimoto (I think) German suplexing Suwama ruled. Hashimoto is just a great wrestler, full stop. She'll suplex anyone, male or female or anyone else.
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Dec 26, 2022 21:54
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forkboy84 posted:I haven't watched the show yet but the gif I saw of Chihiro Hashimoto (I think) German suplexing Suwama ruled. Hashimoto is just a great wrestler, full stop. She'll suplex anyone, male or female or anyone else. Unfortunately that may be the highpoint of the match unless you really like Okazi-gun shenanigans
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Dec 26, 2022 21:56
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SG Bamboo posted:Unfortunately that may be the highpoint of the match unless you really like Okazi-gun shenanigans Makes them the perfect partners for a Voodoo Murders member really Sucks too, Maya Yukihi is really good.
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Dec 27, 2022 01:19
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CombineThresher posted:I'd say Dalton/the Boys and the Acclaimed's scissoring thing are both examples of queer-coded stuff being used by babyfaces in a not-lovely way; the audience is laughing and cheering with them, not at them. It's pretty great. My only negative about Dalton Castle and the Boys is the human throne thing they do. But that’s 100% rooted in the power dynamics on display and nothing to do with sexuality. But Dalton Castle has been amazing in what little I’ve seen of their matches.
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Dec 27, 2022 01:23
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Like you wouldn't have a Boy Throne if you had a bunch of Boys.
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Dec 27, 2022 01:30
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The human throne thing is cool as gently caress and a very weird thing to get upset about from the perspective of visible ‘power dynamics’ in the context of a fake sport where big giant dudes regularly throw little tiny dudes around like rag dolls as a display of overwhelming violent force.
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Dec 27, 2022 01:38
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Power dynamics in queer cultures??? Cultures that gave the world new meanings of "top" and "bottom"?? Seems impossible
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Dec 27, 2022 02:06
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History Comes Inside! posted:The human throne thing is cool as gently caress and a very weird thing to get upset about from the perspective of visible ‘power dynamics’ in the context of a fake sport where big giant dudes regularly throw little tiny dudes around like rag dolls as a display of overwhelming violent force. It was pointed out to me by my partner and I just can’t shake it. Just a minor quibble really and that’s probably the most negative thing I can say about Dalton Castle or the boys and how they’re presented on TV. And at the end of the day if a person can watch a Dalton Castle match and see a positive role model then that’s what matters.
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Dec 27, 2022 04:56
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Nystral posted:It was pointed out to me by my partner and I just can’t shake it. Just a minor quibble really and that’s probably the most negative thing I can say about Dalton Castle or the boys and how they’re presented on TV. sounds like Dalton and the boys broke your heart
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Dec 27, 2022 05:07
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