(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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PSL put out a study guide for capital recently but I haven’t gone through it https://www.liberationschool.org/psl-course-marxs-capital/
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Dec 25, 2022 18:40
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actionjackson posted:I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it Marx in a letter recommends reading the chapters "Working Day", "Co-operation", "The Division of Labour and Machinery" and "Primitive Accumulation" first as they are readable and give context. I did that and found it quite good advice, afterwards I read it from the beginning again. I think reading it unabridged is the best. The beginning can be tough; Michael Heinrich's "An Introduction to the Three Volumes of Karl Marx's Capital" and "How to Read Marx's Capital: Commentary and Explanations on the Beginning Chapters" are both very excellent I found in helping to understand it more. The first is a more broader survey of Capital Vol. 1,2 and 3, the second focuses on the first 5 chapters in a passage-by-passage way and I found it quite good too. Both can be found as PDF and EPUB on libgen. Finding a reading group is useful, but that can be hard to organise depending on where you are. Also I second the recommendation of David Harvey. I have lots of issues with his views on esp. the early chapters, but he is quite easy to listen to (or read) and helps clarify some things, but like Heinrich should be read critically. sube has issued a correction as of 18:45 on Dec 25, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 18:43
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If people would like a light and comedic touch of jovial leftism this fine Christmas, may I present: "Scrooge wasn't THAT bad!" It's a video I made chronicling the bizarre December tradition of op-ed writers defending Ebenezer Scrooge from A Christmas Carol. If I may say so myself, I think it turned out pretty well! It even has a few surprise appearences from some very special guests! Any watchtime/subs/likes/comments are much appreciated and feed the algorithm beast.
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Dec 25, 2022 19:23
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Principles of Communism is a better intro than the Manifesto in my opinion, especially for readers today. and it's just as short.
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Dec 25, 2022 19:27
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actionjackson posted:I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it i've only read vol. 1 of capital but you're going to probably need a study guide or people who have read it before (like this thread) to help you through it. communist manifesto is a very easy read, you should have no problems with it.
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Dec 25, 2022 19:36
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Stray thoughts on reading Capital:sube posted:Marx in a letter recommends reading the chapters "Working Day", "Co-operation", "The Division of Labour and Machinery" and "Primitive Accumulation" first as they are readable and give context. I did that and found it quite good advice, afterwards I read it from the beginning again. I think reading it unabridged is the best. This is a solid rec. First time I read Capital vol 1, I got to chapter 10 (The Working Day) and by the end of it I was like This Should've Been Chapter One. The first three chapters are the trickiest of the bunch, but after that it's pretty smooth sailing, yeah. Harry Cleaver's "Reading Capital Politically" is a good companion piece for its short length, just focusing on those three. I think the "German" style comes through in parts of Capital, but Marx is also a good enough polemicist that quite a lot of vol 1 still feels fairly readable to contemporary sensibilities, at least compared to a lot of other stuff published at the time — e.g., compare with Boole's "The Laws of Thought," published about a decade before Capital. Marx will seem downright rollicking by contrast. Harvey helped me get started and he's a personable accomplice but yeah, take some of his stuff critically. I say this every so often but: The process of learning has no end, but it's got to start somewhere, and you could do worse than Harvey in that regard. I've not read any of Heinrich and a lot of people really seem to find his work illuminating, but I admit I'm negatively predisposed to his whole value-form sect because of how it tends to brush off the question of the falling rate of profit. For a small window into that debate a decade ago, good ol' McCaine wrote a little thing on it. But yeah, you don't even have to spend a lot of time stretching and prepping; just dive in and discuss whatever connects or doesn't for you, IMO.
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Dec 25, 2022 20:34
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Calico Heart posted:If people would like a light and comedic touch of jovial leftism this fine Christmas, may I present: "Scrooge wasn't THAT bad!" It's a video I made chronicling the bizarre December tradition of op-ed writers defending Ebenezer Scrooge from A Christmas Carol. If I may say so myself, I think it turned out pretty well! It even has a few surprise appearences from some very special guests! this is a good video. made me laugh. I am sorry you are stuck on a rock with these freaks.
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Dec 25, 2022 20:54
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Even if you find Marx too difficult to read there are hundreds if not thousands of writers who have built upon the frameworks he and Engels laid out. It’s a slog reading through Marx but I really enjoy the works of people like Walter Rodney, Ben Barka, and co.
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Dec 25, 2022 21:12
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mila kunis posted:the closest i've seen a decent recommendation for this is this soviet textbook...from 1954: Never got around to it yet, but what about this one? https://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals...314630307&psc=1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Marxism%96Leninism The author seems like an OG too
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Dec 25, 2022 21:14
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Capital is dry as gently caress but it's so imminently relevant to working class life and labor relations that pretty much anyone should be able to relate to it like a century and a half later. It's okay to not engage deeply in every single page of this old rear end economics text book but pretty much anyone can get a lot out of it if they put in like a moderate amount of effort. It's also fuckin important as the foundation for like half of everything else that's ever happened so like suck it up and do your homework or you're no better than a dumbass anarchist. PiratePrentice has issued a correction as of 22:32 on Dec 25, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 22:26
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it also helps you get the references and memes. not really kidding, it’s very common for subsequent authors to use some turn of phrase Marx wrote. sometimes they’re just being cute but other times it can contextualize what somebody is trying to say.
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Dec 25, 2022 22:30
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PiratePrentice posted:Capital is dry as gently caress but it's so imminently relevant to working class life and labor relations that pretty much anyone should be able to relate to like a century and a half later. It's okay to not engage deeply in every single page of this old rear end economics text book but pretty much anyone can get a lot out of it if they put in like a moderate amount of effort. i think we've had this discussion before, and this is my favourite post on it https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3967822&pagenumber=204&perpage=40#post525459061 if you want socialism to win and believe that masses of people reading stuff is important to it in some way than that stuff should be more readable, accessible and relevant than a 150+ year old book that is notorious for people bouncing off it.
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Dec 25, 2022 22:35
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Ho Chi Minh taught theory to a shitload of illiterate literal peasants, the computer touching labor aristocracy posters of cspam can read fuckin capital. The idea that the masses need to be individually accountable for all revolutionary theory and that a professional revolutionary class is unneeded is some silly rear end anarchist poo poo that don't hold up in reality. If you think that a more modern and readable version of capital is needed than go find someone who can write it, but in the mean time if you consider yourself a Marxist you should read fuckin Marx.
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Dec 25, 2022 22:47
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Tankbuster posted:this is a good video. made me laugh. I am sorry you are stuck on a rock with these freaks. i wouldn't be here if i also didn't somehow deserve it
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Dec 25, 2022 22:58
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PiratePrentice posted:Ho Chi Minh taught theory to a shitload of illiterate literal peasants, the computer touching labor aristocracy posters of cspam can read fuckin capital. computer touchers have been the most lobotomized by capital, like instead of jurgis getting wrecked by the meat plant, computer toucher brains are remade to think like computers. it takes a while to learn to read and think like a human again. and absent any real party, people gotta come to it in their own way
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Dec 25, 2022 22:59
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Tankbuster posted:this is a good video. made me laugh. I am sorry you are stuck on a rock with these freaks. echoing this, it's a good video, well done Calico Heart
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Dec 25, 2022 23:09
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Centrist Committee posted:computer touchers have been the most lobotomized by capital, like instead of jurgis getting wrecked by the meat plant, computer toucher brains are remade to think like computers. it takes a while to learn to read and think like a human again. and absent any real party, people gotta come to it in their own way Anyone posting in the cspam Marxism thread should be able to handle capital I think, this place isn't perfect but it's not Reddit. Once someone can handle the base ideas of theory being important and socdem/anarchism being a dead end the next step is to start actually reading theory. Communist manifesto is a much easier start than capital for sure, but I feel like capital is more important and shouldn't be skipped by a serious student.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:12
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Centrist Committee posted:computer touchers have been the most lobotomized by capital, like instead of jurgis getting wrecked by the meat plant, computer toucher brains are remade to think like computers. it takes a while to learn to read and think like a human again. and absent any real party, people gotta come to it in their own way cmon
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Dec 25, 2022 23:15
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I mean that is a correct analysis where is the lie
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Dec 25, 2022 23:21
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PiratePrentice posted:Anyone posting in the cspam Marxism thread should be able to handle capital I think, this place isn't perfect but it's not Reddit. Once someone can handle the base ideas of theory being important and socdem/anarchism being a dead end the next step is to start actually reading theory. im just saying people bounce off it, it takes when people are ready
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Dec 25, 2022 23:22
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HiroProtagonist posted:I mean that is a correct analysis where is the lie I think it's tough to argue in the materialist analysis thread that the class of people experiencing an above average amount of material stability are the ones "who actually got it the hardest, y'all" (e: a little bit of hyperbole in my part for sure)
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Dec 25, 2022 23:27
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He didn't say they have it the hardest, he said that they've been trained in computerized thinking to a degree that makes them less useful as theorists and materialists because of how well entwined their labour and patterns of thoughts are with neoliberalism and the logics of individuality and maximisation of all aspects of personal life. Their comfort and ability to function easily and smoothly as a tool in the hands of the modern service economy makes it harder for them to understand the actual real life existence of normal human beings. It's a fair thing to say but I'm trying to expect better things from the people posting in this thread specifically.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:31
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Adjectivist Philosophy posted:I think it's tough to argue in the materialist analysis thread that the class of people experiencing an above average amount of material stability are the ones "who actually got it the hardest, y'all" (e: a little bit of hyperbole in my part for sure) above average material stability and comfortable sedentary nature of said class contributes to the lobotmization
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Dec 25, 2022 23:32
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Adjectivist Philosophy posted:I think it's tough to argue in the materialist analysis thread that the class of people experiencing an above average amount of material stability are the ones "who actually got it the hardest, y'all" (e: a little bit of hyperbole in my part for sure) that's not what the post is saying its saying computer touchers have been lobotomized to think of themselves as privileged workers and accomplices of capital
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Dec 25, 2022 23:32
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They just benefit from capitalism and that makes them support it. It's their inflated paychecks, not some weird robotic brainwashing. I thought we were materialists ffs.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:33
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Cpt_Obvious posted:They just benefit from capitalism and that makes them support it. It's their inflated paychecks, not some weird robotic brainwashing.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:34
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side effect of the decades long project to conflate income with material class and relationship to productive means but a successful project nonetheless
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Dec 25, 2022 23:35
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Ideology is materially influenced and the circumstances occupied by computer touchers makes them very vulnerable to neoliberal ideology specifically.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:35
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Calico Heart posted:If people would like a light and comedic touch of jovial leftism this fine Christmas, may I present: "Scrooge wasn't THAT bad!" It's a video I made chronicling the bizarre December tradition of op-ed writers defending Ebenezer Scrooge from A Christmas Carol. If I may say so myself, I think it turned out pretty well! It even has a few surprise appearences from some very special guests! oh yeah meant to say this was a good video, i watched it the same night you posted and subsequently linked it to others, nice work
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Dec 25, 2022 23:36
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guy i knew in hs ended up becoming a marxist-leninist in college then worked for a FAANG right when he graduated so y'know, anecdotes and all that.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:41
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it becomes very murky because nobody can just choose to be a "pure" marxist and reject the bourgeois capitalist system by simply not working, and that includes working (or not) for a big tech company. however there must be a line drawn between being a random code monkey and outright bragging that you programmed drone gps navigation for lockheed martin as some cred-flashing extremely online types i may have met are known to do.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:46
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Cpt_Obvious posted:They just benefit from capitalism and that makes them support it. It's their inflated paychecks, not some weird robotic brainwashing. marks goes on for like a dozen chapters on the dialectic between workers and their tools, whether workers use their tools, or the tools use their workers, and how capitalism really takes off in the transition from the former to the latter the paychecks go a long way tho
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Dec 25, 2022 23:49
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I mean you can still know your theory and know that capitalism is evil and destroying the world but also know what side your fuckin bread is buttered on and go get a stupid tech job anyways. We all know that the reason MLs are outnumbered 50 to 1 by anarchists in The West is that the MLs got violently exterminated in the latter half of the twentieth century, and it's not like a ton of people believe that there is any revolutionary potential left in the imperial core. It's not ever super surprising to see an otherwise knowledgeable person give up on Marxist practice or ideology to become a tech worker.
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Dec 25, 2022 23:53
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Personally, I suggest reading the Manifesto and 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte to get the knack of the literary style (and because they are good and short reads). I'd also recommend Wage Labor and Capital, it hits a lot of the highlights of Capital but is way shorter and more comprehensible. 18th Brumaire is really good and it's a good intro to Marx's style- both the German tendency to ramble but also some of his incredible turns of phrase. The only problem is that a lot if it is an incredibly precise discussion of the short lived Second Republic- imagine someone 150 years from now reading someone making fun of Robert Mueller, even if they're vaguely aware of the Trump administration. But if you've got a bit of background it kicks rear end, it's still an incredibly prescient discussion of right wing populist movements
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Dec 26, 2022 00:04
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PiratePrentice posted:We all know that the reason MLs are outnumbered 50 to 1 by anarchists in The West is that the MLs got violently exterminated in the latter half of the twentieth century plus anarchism has a petit-bourgeois class basis which makes it more readily at home among the labor aristocracy than the bottom-rung industrial proles of the global periphery I suspect this is why most of the lit that spends any time differentiating between "private property" and "personal property" is anarchist lit; on average, they're the ones with more of a need to be reassured "no, we're not coming after your toothbrush and playstation and giant tv etc" than your typical Dalit or Adivasi textile worker in India
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Dec 26, 2022 00:12
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That makes a lot of sense, I haven't put much time into reading anarchist theory because it's such a massive historical and practical failure of an ideology but maybe it would be good to have a better understanding of the largest failings of the modern Western left.
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Dec 26, 2022 00:17
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PiratePrentice posted:That makes a lot of sense, I haven't put much time into reading anarchist theory because it's such a massive historical and practical failure of an ideology but maybe it would be good to have a better understanding of the largest failings of the modern Western left. i mean, 
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Dec 26, 2022 00:40
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um Is it all just the dumbest poo poo ever written or what
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Dec 26, 2022 01:07
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Yeah I've read conquest of bread, it's pure utopian thought, after the revolution the food will be distributed evenly, there will be no strife between classes, the foreman will work in tandem with their employees w/o coercion etc.
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Dec 26, 2022 01:19
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HiroProtagonist posted:i mean, its like that parrot image meme that kills you but instead it just forces you to imagine an anarchist sucking their own dick while slamming a typewriter
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Dec 26, 2022 01:19
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