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I've been part of organizations that changed work culture. It usually means about 80% of the leaders and ICs are replaced, fired, or walked. That's about the only way I know of to actually effectively create that change. You'll find the job hunt to be dramatically different the next time you go through it. I'd try to get to that 2 year mark though, you'll find a lot of doors open. Also, being proactive is good. Coming in as a greeny and telling people how to do their job is not. I can tell you're struggling a bit on how to walk that line. You need to learn how to influence people, not just say "Do it better way". That's going to be a big problem in your career until you learn how to do it. Source: This was me for a good while early in my career.
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Dec 25, 2022 21:44
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Qubee posted:the English accent is a superpower here yikes
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Dec 25, 2022 21:51
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Dude most of your posts here just now have been long, rambling rationalizations that nobody wants to read. If you are like this in real life I think I can see what is putting your coworkers off. And also they know you are a snitch, and they will never like or respect you now. Then from a managerial standpoint you are the only person who seems to have a problem, so to them you ARE the problem. There’s no coming back from any of this. Find another job and keep your head down and your mouth shut next time. Also please read “How to win friends and influence people” by Dale Carnegie.
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Dec 25, 2022 22:29
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Your main goal and part of why you took this job was to ‘get noticed’ and position yourself for an internal transfer? Internal transfer processes at large bureaucratic orgs like F500 companies are intimidating, ineffective, and stressful all at once. I would never bank on one with any degree of certainty or eventuality at all. People who ‘get noticed’ (read: nepotism) also tend to be pretty good at seamlessly blending into a social environment and being perceived by others as likeable. The likeability is perhaps the biggest factor to “getting noticed” other than productivity, and may in fact be a larger factor. That’s my take at least. e: Please stop* labeling nations as backwards unless they truly deserve it (Russia). I think that’s a pattern of thinking we want to move away from over time. Criticizing parts of work culture is different…. but it’s not the whole nation. That gets you close to some slippery slopes that harm discourse and progress. * ok will qualify this. If you are literally from the nation and feel it is backwards, then of course it would be wrong to ask you not to speak your mind. Or if you understand /are educated about a nation well enough to say it's backwards, I guess that makes sense too. Seems like it's fine in this case then. Soapbox gone. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 22:39
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I'm perfectly comfortable with labeling wealthy countries that subjugate women or imprison and/or kill LGBT people as backwards. That seems accurate, and I am guessing Qubee is in one of those based on his posts.
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Dec 26, 2022 00:58
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Lockback posted:I'm perfectly comfortable with labeling wealthy countries that subjugate women or imprison and/or kill LGBT people as backwards. That seems accurate, and I am guessing Qubee is in one of those based on his posts. It’s Saudi Arabia, iirc, unless that was some other goon
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Dec 26, 2022 01:53
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I've seen the 'backwards' discussion and it also caught a report (not from someone commenting above). he appears to likely live in a backwards country based on my super brief skim of post history. even if it wasn't, it's probably not gonna catch a probe. it's clear qubee can't read a room and also was just ranting about his personal experience with a particular part of a culture.
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Dec 26, 2022 02:13
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Lockback posted:I'm perfectly comfortable with labeling wealthy countries that subjugate women or imprison and/or kill LGBT people as backwards. That seems accurate, and I am guessing Qubee is in one of those based on his posts. Without getting into the politics of it, if these are strongly held beliefs he probably shouldn’t be intentionally working there and that attitude may contribute to what he’s experiencing at work.
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Dec 26, 2022 02:22
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Ahhh, that feeling when someone reports a post for calling Saudi Arabia a backward country. Perhaps the reporter would prefer a different-but-appropriate term like "utter shithole" or "fundamentalist hell-state" ? For actual content, though: Qubee, get the hell out of that role and into a new company or site as soon as you can. In no particular order... quote:it's the one thing that I genuinely enjoy and get happiness from. I don't have a social circle, or any hobbies, I left all that behind in the UK. My life is literally work, home, and spending time with my two birds. Fix yourself. You can't loving live like this. Get into therapy, get socializing somehow, and find personal interests that aren't work. If you can't get therapy while in Saudi Arabia (I legit have no idea what mental health treatment is like there, so don't read anything extra into this), refer back to the previous line about GTFO. quote:Also, realistically speaking, changing the work culture wouldn't be too hard. There's like 7 locals and then the rest of our coworkers are expats who already work hard and actually do their job. All it would take is a bit of push from upper management and the tide would easily shift. It's not like trying to change the culture of a department 30 members strong. I'd just have to snitch to our director and then live with the fact I'm openly despised instead of passive aggressively despised. Our department is doing the old management switcheroo in a few months and the guy replacing our current mid-level boss is a hardass and stickler for work ethic, so that's something I'm hoping changes the environment. This is one of the most delusional things you've posted, IMO. Changing work culture is ridiculously hard. You're going right back to the same mistake you made in the first place, by assuming the rules work the same way they do elsewhere. Those 7 locals' voices count for more than literally all the expats added together. Think of the way companies are in the USA, where there may be 20% employees and 80% contractors -- the contractors don't get to change poo poo, no matter how broken it is or how many of them there are. They get told to shut the gently caress up and do their work. quote:The plan wasn't ever to go above my supervisor's head and snitch to his boss Stick to the plan next time, because that's exactly what you did. quote:I even gently brought up the subject to my supervisor twice in private. I asked for more interaction with the senior engineers and perhaps be given the chance to shadow someone to have them explain why they do what they do etc.. He just scoffed, said I already had my own projects and told me to ask more questions (which - if anything - is something I do too much of to begin with!) and that they were too busy. Twice he used those excuses, which I took to mean "piss off, kid". That's very likely what he was telling you. "They're too busy to mentor you, and you have your own projects already" is literally "shut the gently caress up and do your work," and then you went to his boss. I agree with Motronic's assessment. The only place where I'd put an asterisk is that I don't know whether your company's directors talk between countries. If you have national silos, you can probably move elsewhere internally (like, a different country) and try again. If people talk at director levels or call internal transfers' bosses to find out details, you're hosed. If you need more experience before you feel comfortable jumping ship, sure, you can hang around longer. Start your exit plan, get therapy, and figure out a way to define yourself as something other than your loving job.
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Dec 26, 2022 02:56
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I appreciate all the advice, thank you for the brutal honestly. I'm now fully in the mindset of get whatever I can from this place whilst actively looking to move away. Apologies for the huge walls of word salad. I've always been a rambler.
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Dec 26, 2022 05:40
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Qubee posted:I'm grabbing the rope guys. Not to hang myself, but to get myself out of this well. I was delusional. Just keep your mouth shut and do the work. For the love of Allah do not talk to a director/vp/someone higher up about anything negative, at all. As sick as it sounds, if you put on the face of realizing you’re downtrodden the locals will probably like you more because it’s showing you know your place (or station in your extra U’s version of English). Make it to 2 years if you can, but whatever the case is, your job is burned. Maybe circle back to them in 10 years.
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Dec 26, 2022 07:01
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Do the locals and you make the same salary?
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Dec 26, 2022 07:14
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Yeah as someone that had a reportee go over their head to their boss (director level lol) complaining that I hadn't upgraded their title by writing a rant about it and demanding that it be done and that they be promoted fully inside two years, and watching it spectacularly backfire on them (to the extent that we agreed they probably shouldn't have been promoted to where they were if it hadn't been politically difficult to do so), it is almost never a good idea.
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Dec 26, 2022 12:55
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Tnuctip posted:Just keep your mouth shut and do the work. For the love of Allah do not talk to a director/vp/someone higher up about anything negative, at all. As sick as it sounds, if you put on the face of realizing you’re downtrodden the locals will probably like you more because it’s showing you know your place (or station in your extra U’s version of English). God is Great, brother. I won't. downout posted:Do the locals and you make the same salary? On paper, I am a local. We make the same. For all intents and purposes, I am them and they are me. I am therefore protected from any bullshit they could pull on an expat, like sudden expulsion from the company or whatever. I'm better than them though because my mother actually made me wipe my own rear end as a child, I didn't have an indentured servant do it for me (I kid you not, it is common practice for housemaids to put on socks and trousers and shirts for kids til they're like 14 years old, so imagine the type of adult that creates). Today was a great day because I spent it at site talking with random people and learning a lot and having nice conversations. I didn't spend much time in my cubicle at all. I also had a fellow halfie coworker take me around and introduce me to people and it was very wholesome. He said he sees a lot of himself in me, especially cause of the whole culture shock of coming to the gulf when you've lived your entire life abroad. He's the US version to my UK version. Thank you all for the much needed dose of reality. I'll stop whining about my circumstances now and instead look forward to the future.
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Dec 26, 2022 15:22
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Saudi politics aside, I’d bet your view that the local senior engineers are ‘typical lazy middle easterners from a backwards country’ comes across quite clearly whenever a conversation goes beyond idle chit chat.
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Dec 26, 2022 15:40
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Your job is to network in to a better place.
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Dec 26, 2022 16:21
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Democratic Pirate posted:Saudi politics aside, I’d bet your view that the local senior engineers are ‘typical lazy middle easterners from a backwards country’ comes across quite clearly whenever a conversation goes beyond idle chit chat. It didn't and doesn't show. I know on the forums I come across a certain way, but in real life, I'm actually alright at interacting with people. I'd eat my own foot before making it obvious what I really think of their work ethic. This is the last therapy diary post I make and then I'll let the thread return to it's tracks: everything was great at the beginning. They'd chat with me, we'd joke and laugh, talk about similar interests and hobbies. My big boss kept asking me if they'd invited me out yet to their gatherings, I thought that was slightly awkward (because they hadn't). It wasn't until our big boss forced me onto my coworkers project that things started going downhill. Said coworker did a quiet babyrage and started shunning me from the group  Also, supervisor never liked me from the start because he kept constantly hearing from big boss words of praise and compliments and all that shite. It doesn't help that supervisor's own background consisted of living in someone else's shadow who went on to become a leader in a different department, but everyone talks about him still and how phenomenal he was. Imagine being his replacement and hearing that all the time, especially when they both joined at the same time. I think he harbours a lot of resentment and when I joined, he saw similarities and is helping slow down my progress cause his buddy is coworker and he doesn't want the same to happen to him. Me being forcefully put on the project was just the nail in the coffin.
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Dec 26, 2022 16:26
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Qubee posted:I appreciate all the advice, thank you for the brutal honestly. I'm now fully in the mindset of get whatever I can from this place whilst actively looking to move away. Surely this time you will learn. (setting a reminder for 4 months from now to repeat this same conversation)
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Dec 26, 2022 16:30
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DM me when the reminder goes off and I'll either post in here like a changed man, or type up a three page essay crying about how it isn't fair and I thought talking to the VP of Operations would help but it didn't and now I'm filing paperwork in the basement archives.
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Dec 26, 2022 16:38
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Me - just a regular local guy with a cushy job getting paid tons of money to hang out all day shooting the poo poo with my friends and doing like 2 hours of work. You - a foreigner fresh out of school with literally no life outside work who grinds all day long and complains to my bosses boss about me and daydreams about one day changing the work culture so everyone has to work hard all day. I truly have no idea why only people from other departments will talk to you.
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Dec 26, 2022 17:53
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Qubee posted:It didn't and doesn't show. quote:everything was great at the beginning. They'd chat with me, we'd joke and laugh, talk about similar interests and hobbies. quote:When I first joined, the older guys were great, they'd give me so much of their time to explain stuff, give advice, point me in the right direction. They'd call me over to their cubicles and we'd joke and laugh together. They'd say good morning and have a good weekend and stuff like that. quote:The work environment is currently rear end. There used to be a sense of camaraderie and friendship but that's gone quote:This made me go and look back at my old whatsapp messages with said senior coworker. loving hell but we were actual friends. He was super friendly and we were joking and all that, but as time passes, his replies get more terse and then he just stops replying altogether lol Option A is your narrative: quote:Also, supervisor never liked me from the start because he kept constantly hearing from big boss words of praise and compliments and all that shite. quote:He warned me not to complete work too quick as it'll raise everyone's hackles quote:Me coming in as a local and showing an iota of work ethic is what rocked the boat quote:The new kid coming along and actually doing a proper 8 hours of work (instead of their 2 hours of work, 2 hours of walking about, and 4 hours of having social gatherings) and showing up all these guys who have been at the company for 8+ years (in the sense that my progress in one year is equivalent to their progress in 3 years). quote:This is the supervisor that used to sit in my office and tell me 'you're different from the others, you will go far' and would constantly big me up in front of my teammates (which I remember thinking at the time wasn't good as it sort of started the rift). quote:They're all very chummy. It sounds like I've been hitting a crack pipe because it comes across as paranoia, but the only thing that makes sense is the group leader is in cahoots and is trying to purposefully slow down our progress so we don't show up the older guys. quote:What I'll do differently is scope out the work culture first, maybe don't stick out so sorely like I did here by making waves too much. I was so obsessed with doing a good job, networking and trying so hard to leave a good first impression that it kinda bit me in the rear end, cause it made coworkers / supervisor clam up and shun me A few of us readers have picked up on an alternate option, option B. Where your coworkers have picked up on the fact that you have zero respect for them and also see them as culturally and ethnically incapable of matching your superior western work ethic and intellect: quote:I really feel like my coworkers are typical lazy middle easterners and I've joined with my western mentality and I am inadvertently threatening their laid back and easy way of life. quote:I think upper management is using us new hires as a way to highlight the laziness and lack of productivity of the older guys. quote:I'm better than them though because my mother actually made me wipe my own rear end as a child, quote:I've made a really good impression with a whole host of people, from a bunch of different departments (the English accent is a superpower here) quote:My number one problem was coming to this backwards country and thinking the locals think the same way that I do. They don't. Suckling on the welfare teat all your life and having literal slave labour in the form of housemaids to do all your bidding from the time you were a kid to adulthood makes for pathetically small minded and spoilt citizens For what it's worth, the reason I'm going in on this is because what you're experiencing isn't uncommon, Qubee. You're annoyed by your team's culture, are finding less support than you thought you had, are frustrated by the pace of your development, and are feeling underutilized. Getting yourself to an honest answer for "how am I contributing to these issues?" is challenging while you're in it, particularly when, as you note, work has taken an outsized role in your life. In your next role, try to avoid setting yourself a narrative in which your coworkers and bosses are jealous of and threatened by you. When you want more responsibility, support, and progression, learn how to tell the story of how it benefits them. Your coworkers and managers know why you taking on tasks and projects is good for you, but "because it'll help out Qubee" isn't much of a motivation... even when you are well liked. There is nobody at your company, or any company you ever have or ever will work for, who is responsible for your development (or progression or morale) as its own end. Your coworkers have a stake in your development because the better you are, the less they have to hold your hand or clean up after your messes (and depending on team structure can even pass work they dislike after a decade off to you so they can focus on other work (or less work)). Your boss has a stake in your development because the more productive you are, the more productive their team is and the more they're able to show that they can maximize resources (your headcount, training budgets, etc), the more resources they'll be able to claim, all of which helps with their own career progression. It is extremely easy to get selfcentered in your own career, especially when things aren't going well. When that leads to simplifying (and reducing) others' motivations and roles in your worklife to asset or obstacle, the adversarial attitude shines through and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Dec 26, 2022 17:59
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Jesus, I feel like that's a bit below the belt. For the record, I may come across as an rear end in a top hat because I'm using this as a platform to voice my internal thoughts, this isn't stuff I project outwardly. I also admitted to it seeming self aggrandizing. I'm not doing anything special, I'm just doing normal stuff but it's hailed as loving phenomenal here. I think it's just due to the total alien work culture here. I mean for god's sake, the government sector hires tonnes of locals and they're literally paid to not even clock into work. People in the private sector (where I work) think that merely showing up on time and clocking out after 8 hours is going above and beyond their duty, considering they could work in the government sector and 1) not even turn up to the office or 2) on the rare occasion they have to turn up, they can sign in, immediately go home and return at the end of the day to sign out. In our office, all the actual work is done primarily by expats, with only a handful of locals performing their job roles because they enjoy their work. The rest just piss about all day and do the bare minimum. My mentor once refused to go to site with me because "have you seen the weather outside? it's hot". I don't care what they want to do, but when they purposefully hamstring my own progression, that's when I start getting frustrated. To put into context how absolutely low the standard is: the two people who joined with me spend almost all day, every day on their phones, either on Netflix or chatting with mates. Like I said, it seems like I'm sniffing my own farts, loving boy wonder over here, but I've admitted it's just due to the typical bog standard performance they've come to expect because 40 years of being breastfed by daddy government and getting paid wads of cash for just existing doesn't make for a hardworking or disciplined society. I ultimately don't give a drat what the new joinees are doing, more power to them if they want to watch TV all day. But I'm 30 years old and I don't have time to gently caress around at a glacial pace. I already did that in university and paid the price when no one wanted to touch Ol' Gramps with zero experience fresh outta uni. Also, in my attempt to balance the scales, I worked in the UK and it was a totally different experience. I wasn't anything special. I was just your average Joe. That being said, your last three paragraphs were actually really beneficial and gave me a totally different perspective to think on, Paracaidas. The final point I wanna make: if I'd been at this company for 8 years and was at the top of my grade scale and to go up another grade needed Herculean effort, I 100% would also resort to shooting the poo poo with my mates at work and doing the bare minimum. But what gets my goat is I'm not at the top, I'm at the bottom. The guys at the top are my age. They lived through the golden years and had so much support and assistance when they were juniors, but now that they've gotten what they want, they don't have the decency to pass it on for the next batch of sorry bastards, they're just cutting us off in a selfish attempt to maintain the status quo.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:29
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Qubee posted:Jesus, I feel like that's a bit below the belt. For the record, I may come across as an rear end in a top hat because I'm using this as a platform to voice my internal thoughts, this isn't stuff I project outwardly. I also admitted to it seeming self aggrandizing. I'm not doing anything special, I'm just doing normal stuff but it's hailed as loving phenomenal here. I think it's just due to the total alien work culture here. I mean for god's sake, the government sector hires tonnes of locals and they're literally paid to not even clock into work. People in the private sector (where I work) think that merely showing up on time and clocking out after 8 hours is going above and beyond their duty, considering they could work in the government sector and 1) not even turn up to the office or 2) on the rare occasion they have to turn up, they can sign in, immediately go home and return at the end of the day to sign out. In our office, all the actual work is done primarily by expats, with only a handful of locals performing their job roles because they enjoy their work. The rest just piss about all day and do the bare minimum. My mentor once refused to go to site with me because "have you seen the weather outside? it's hot". I don't care what they want to do, but when they purposefully hamstring my own progression, that's when I start getting frustrated. If you need this many words to explain that it is not you who is the rear end in a top hat, then you are definitely the rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:38
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It was more just trying to paint a picture of the landscape here, because I don't think your average SA Forums poster realises how bizarre or totally disconnected from reality these gulf countries can be. My bad for totally derailing the thread. I'll do my best to take everything said to heart, even if some of it was a tad mean.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:40
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Qubee posted:the UK is different than Saudi Arabia yeah no poo poo. One of them is an oppressive monarchy where the human rights of their most vulnerable members are treated poorly and the elite enriches themselves at the cost of society as a whole. The other of course if Saudi Arabia.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:41
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therobit posted:If you need this many words to explain that it is not you who is the rear end in a top hat, then you are definitely the rear end in a top hat. this was not necessary Qubee posted:It was more just trying to paint a picture of the landscape here, because I don't think your average SA Forums poster realises how bizarre or totally disconnected from reality these gulf countries can be. My bad for totally derailing the thread. I'll do my best to take everything said to heart, even if some of it was a tad mean. let's just back off the whole qubee derail for now. everyone please pick another topic until, say, after New Year's. I think he's had enough feedback for one holiday.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:44
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How early into December does your Corporate Enterprises grind to a halt? I was contracting for LEGO and was very surprised when one week into December during a meeting the Lead Engineer began tabling all discussions of solutions and architecture for January. We did a bit of bug fixing but since nothing new was developed it quickly turned into "how to get time to pass" kind of work.
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Dec 26, 2022 19:50
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champagne posting posted:How early into December does your Corporate Enterprises grind to a halt? I was contracting for LEGO and was very surprised when one week into December during a meeting the Lead Engineer began tabling all discussions of solutions and architecture for January. We did a bit of bug fixing but since nothing new was developed it quickly turned into "how to get time to pass" kind of work. Second week of December is usually when people start checking out and nothing gets done at my place.
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Dec 26, 2022 20:14
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I've got a sort of similar issue to Qubee in that I know the answer is "Just leave" but I got shoved under a brand-new-to-managing manager (who I didn't like before this) during a re-org this year, and have been trying to escape them without success ever since. Telling them how I work best and how they can get me to be productive again has been futile - I will perform as they desire when they desire or else. I snapped off and ordered them to follow through with the 'or else' and have since been put on paid leave for my mental health in hopes I return to pre-new-boss effectiveness. Been using the time to job-hunt. IF IT SUCKS, HIT DA BRICKS
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Dec 26, 2022 20:24
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FWIW job hunting is what they are actually hoping and expecting you to do with the time
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Dec 26, 2022 20:27
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The manager maybe, the prez flipped out; "what can we do to keep you here and make you happy?" I didn't throw my manager under the bus though so nothing changed
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Dec 26, 2022 20:32
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Salami Surgeon fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 21:11
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Car Hater posted:The manager maybe, the prez flipped out; "what can we do to keep you here and make you happy?" Did you….. did you not say money?
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Dec 26, 2022 21:14
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Salami Surgeon posted:Take a technical writing course. Learn to be brief. Put your points and your asks first. Your posts are a chore to read. If you interact with your coworkers the same way you interact with us, you are wearing them out. please, just drop it pmchem posted:let's just back off the whole qubee derail for now. everyone please pick another topic until, say, after New Year's. I think he's had enough feedback for one holiday. next person to make a post on the topic in 2022 gets a probe
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Dec 26, 2022 21:35
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SiteOps dude: "What do you mean, nobody's on site to escort us to sort out [problem X in the facility]?" Me: "I mean that nobody's on site to escort you. The entire company is closed." SiteOps: "Entire company? Even you?" Me: "Yep, even us. What the heck are you doing there?" SiteOps: "Pipes only break during long shutdowns. True facts." Me: "...let me find you a security guard to escort. Sorry, dude.  "Poor guy. I left Eli Lilly in part because of the holiday workload, so I totally get it.
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Dec 26, 2022 22:02
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champagne posting posted:How early into December does your Corporate Enterprises grind to a halt? I was contracting for LEGO and was very surprised when one week into December during a meeting the Lead Engineer began tabling all discussions of solutions and architecture for January. We did a bit of bug fixing but since nothing new was developed it quickly turned into "how to get time to pass" kind of work. Depends on the corporate function and, essentially, how easily they can give up taking responsibility for their work. Ultimately that also reflects how little their work matters to the final outcome of the research. In my line of work that sequence is probably: analytics < clinical QA < regulatory < project management < translational science < clinical operations < data management < biostats < clinical < manufacturing (personalised medicine so manufacturing just cannot shut down). Analytics and QA might as well not exist. In fact it would be an upside for the company if analytics just disappeared completely.
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Dec 26, 2022 22:49
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Nothing to see here.
SerthVarnee fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Dec 26, 2022 |
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Dec 26, 2022 22:52
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Cool cool cool, the contact who sends every email as High Priority and calls/pings the team incessantly until resolution has gone radio silent now that we have an ask of them. In league terms, I’m not saying I have a corporate soft int list, but I’m not not saying I have a corporate soft int list.
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Dec 26, 2022 23:03
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knox_harrington posted:In fact it would be an upside for the company if analytics just disappeared completely. I take offense. If manufacturing did poo poo right, you'd not need analytical. I'm thinking of a time manufacturing weighed 30 mg of active instead of 30 kg. Of course, QA and analytical also hosed up and that drug product made it out into the wild. Only got discovered after customer compliant and during the subsequent retest.
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Dec 27, 2022 00:08
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I don't work in manufacturing, and I'm referring to clinical trials analytics, which is a made up subject to justify senior management decisions back to themselves. I work in the clinical team in drug development. Manufacturing are also dipshits* but they do occupy a fairly key position in the "testing drugs on people" game. * no, the patient who has just received a load of preparatory chemo can't wait another week to get their cell treatment just because you've made a scheduling fuckin again
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Dec 27, 2022 00:36
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