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Bugblatter posted:Yeah, that's the intent, but again the Truffaut quote was highlighting the difference between intent and effect. A lot of intended anti-war films wind up being effective recruitment tools because it's hard to depict the action of war without it coming across as cool -- at least to the audience members most likely to be seduced by war. Those horrified by the depictions probably never would have bought in any way. I just don’t think the comparison works. People are just not eager to go kill whales. But people are much more easily convinced to go kill other humans though obliviously. Call it motivation or fear, but even a cool whale hunting sub or brain extraction drill isn’t convincing someone to move to Japan or Norway to start whaling. Army recruits often think they are fighting for a cause. There’s no motivation for us here (no brain immortality elixir dilemma). Like if they showed some really cool puppy killing guns, no one would be recruited by that.
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Dec 29, 2022 07:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, strictly speaking, Avatar 2 doesn't say to save the whales. The tulkuns are a lot like whales, but they are not whales. They speak a language easily translatable to English, and they're very clear that they don't want to to be saved. They're straight-up like "we choose death." This is not true because Paiyakan chooses to help lead a force against the whalers. Everyone just assumes what happens. This is a movie of people stuck to their traditions and dealing with that and changing and adapting (Jake Sully literally talks about adapting to a new environment in this) to new situations. This is an entirely new situation for the people of this clan, including the tulkun.
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Dec 29, 2022 07:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, strictly speaking, Avatar 2 doesn't say to save the whales. The tulkuns are a lot like whales, but they are not whales. They speak a language easily translatable to English, and they're very clear that they don't want to to be saved. They're straight-up like "we choose death." Earth whales have a language, it's just that we earth humans are too stupid and too dumb to understand and translate Whale speak. https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/secrets-of-the-whales-explores-language-social-structure-of-giants-of-the-deep/ [edit] Lol, I didn't even realize the article I linked interviews James Cameron about whales. It's from early 2021, and is a piece highlighting a whale documentary narrated by Cameron and Sigourney Weaver. Guess I'ma go watch that this weekend. teagone fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 07:38
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I like when the head of the sea people was like "Yeah, we know the humans have been killing the whales, but they weren't killing our whales, so we didn't feel like we needed to do anything about it."
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Dec 29, 2022 07:39
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Mordiceius posted:I like when the head of the sea people was like "Yeah, we know the humans have been killing the whales, but they weren't killing our whales, so we didn't feel like we needed to do anything about it." The Tulkun way is something the Metkayina clearly respect, as per that whole scene of Tonowari culturing Lo'ak; the Tulkun wouldn't want them to get involved and so they respect their wishes. Also, the marine biologist character straight up says killing Tulkun that gather around the coastal/reef villages who have kinship bonds with the ocean na'vi would be no different than killing one of their family members. There's an obvious difference, especially given Ronal's confused reaction to the seeing the murdered bodies of her spirit sister and her recent newborn.
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Dec 29, 2022 07:58
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checkplease posted:People are just not eager to go kill whales. Ah, good. If no one wants to then I guess we don't need an anti-whaling message. quote:Call it motivation or fear, but even a cool whale hunting sub or brain extraction drill isn’t convincing someone to move to Japan or Norway to start whaling. I could point out that no one would have to move, this already plays in areas with active whaling industries. I mean I don't think there's going to be much of an impact on the whaling industry or that suddenly lots of people will start whaling. But to the extent that the movie wants to influence the whaling industry, the scene as it exists kind of muddles its message. I don't think space whales being able to do math will give someone who might join a whaling crew much pause. Maybe someone in a community where that's a viable job would have their interests sparked by the tech that goes into it (People into hunting tend to be fascinated by the possibilities of traps and weapons). If you were making an anti-poaching film, you wouldn't depict the hunt from the poachers' POV and show off all their gear and its clever efficiency. It's just a weird way to handle the scene given the anti-whaling intent.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:04
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Bugblatter posted:If you were making an anti-poaching film, you wouldn't depict the hunt from the poachers' POV and show off all their gear and its clever efficiency. It's just a weird way to handle the scene given the anti-whaling intent. You're overstating just how in depth and complex the whaling operation was depicted in the film. If anything, the most detailed bit was probably the adrenochrome extraction, which is a very unsettling scene (as its meant to be), and also has the marine biologist exposit how amazing the Tulkun are while showcasing his moral dilemma. Also the poachers are shown to be in league with the villains of the film, lol. I also want to point out that the whale hunting sequence is supposed to evoke the same sense of urgency and empathy during the hometree bombardment scene from the first film; both sequences have similar action beats, climaxes, emotional stakes, and aftermaths (e.g., the death of Ronal's spirit sister can be related to the death of Neytiri's father). They are systematic takedowns of nature that are cold and calculated and are shown as such.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:14
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I don’t think we need a film to tell us not to kill whales. But to the extent that it’s an example of people exploiting the environment for resources it works fine. Also it’s fun to see a whale wreck a ship. Because the context is we generally don’t like killing whales (even in those countries with an industry), seeing the engineering does not come off as being cool but rather as a huge waste of knowledge and resources for a cruel act. And if we agree this isn’t going to cause whale harvesting gains then it’s likely not pro whale murder imagery.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:22
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teagone posted:You're overstating just how in depth and complex the whaling operation was depicted in the film. If anything, the most detailed bit was probably the adrenochrome extraction, which is a very unsettling scene (as its meant to be), and also has the marine biologist exposit how amazing the Tulkun are while showcasing his moral dilemma. Also the poachers are shown to be in league with the villains of the film, lol. I don't think I am overstating it, it's the full and only thrust of all the dialogue throughout the scene. Imagine if the home tree scene had Trudy explaining how the specific missile ordinance they'd chosen was particularly effective at penetrating the root columns and then detonating inside to destabilize the central mass as if she was reading a Raytheon sales pitch for bunker busters. I agree that the intent was to repeat the same narrative beat from the first film, but it just has a few odd choices that put the tone off balance in ways that bugged me.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:27
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Bugblatter posted:I don't think I am overstating it, it's the full and only thrust of all the dialogue throughout the scene. Imagine if the home tree scene had Trudy explaining how the specific missile ordinance they'd chosen was particularly effective at penetrating the root columns and then detonating inside to destabilize the central mass as if she was reading a Raytheon sales pitch for bunker busters. It was no different with Quaritch narrating the entire hometree bombardment with what specific explosives they were using, it's just instead you have a marine biologist explaining to Spider what's going on, who is also very clearly beating himself up over what he's become part of. What you're describing is it's as if the imagery and dialogue glamorizes the munitions or whaler equipment/process when the surface-level context couldn't be clearer about how hosed up it all is. Both sequences even have the villains make a beer quip in the aftermath of their atrocities to make it extra clear that they're heartless bastards. You're basically arguing that the anti-whaling message is muddied by competent filmmaking.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:43
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Clearly avatar 1 had zero cultural impact since there are still trees on this planet after we watched home tree burn to cool halo style future helicopters.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:52
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I would totally kill a whale if it meant I could live forever. So would anyone ITT.
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Dec 29, 2022 08:56
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MLSM posted:I would totally kill a whale if it meant I could live forever. So would anyone ITT. Brad Pitt as Achillies in Troy told me mortality is beautiful, and I agree with him actually  "Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed." 
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Dec 29, 2022 09:08
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Whale goo just stops aging, still die to Neytiri one shotting arrows. The funny part of course is they already had immortality with brain backups and lab bodies like Quaritch. checkplease fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 09:19
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Payakan would just bodyslam you before you even could think about extracting the immortality juice from another Tulkan.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:21
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teagone posted:It was no different with Quaritch narrating the entire hometree bombardment with what specific explosives they were using, it's just instead you have a marine biologist explaining to Spider what's going on, who is also very clearly beating himself up over what he's become part of. What you're describing is it's as if the imagery and dialogue glamorizes the munitions or whaler equipment/process when the surface-level context couldn't be clearer about how hosed up it all is. Both sequences even have the villains make a beer quip in the aftermath of their atrocities to make it extra clear that they're heartless bastards. Quarritch just gave firing orders, he didn't breakdown the working efficiency of the ordinance like an infomercial. You're right that the scientist giving the rundown has a restrained bitterness in his delivery, it and Spider's kinda worried look is also the strongest emotional response we are shown in the scene. A pretty poor substitute for Neytiri's reaction in the compared scene. It felt weird, I think it would benefit from losing the heavy focus on the gear, having the cameras hold on the whales line of action more as opposed to the subs, give a stronger emotional performance counterweight. quote:You're basically arguing that the anti-whaling message is muddied by competent filmmaking. I'm articulating why I found a scene tonally dissonant due to a few interesting creative choices made by a guy who is an undisputed master of the craft. They strike me as missteps. But if we're down to snarky snips, then it's probably not worth debating further.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:25
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checkplease posted:Whale goo just stops aging, still die to Neytiri one shotting arrows. The movie is pretty clear that A2-Quarritch isn't the same person as A1-Quarritch. There is also nothing stopping them mass-producing copies, which I assume is going to happen.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:26
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checkplease posted:Whale goo just stops aging, still die to Neytiri one shotting arrows. Eh, I dunno that a backup clone would make me want to stop aging. As the movie repeats a few times, that clone wouldn't be me. My own conscious life experience wouldn't continue into the copy. I think it makes sense for the rich and powerful to want the anti-aging goo even with memory backups being a thing.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:28
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checkplease posted:The funny part of course is they already had immortality with brain backups and lab bodies like Quaritch. That isn't immortality though. That's having a copy made of you. Might be some consolation to think that another you would keep going on but the actual you is going to be dead.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:33
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Bugblatter posted:I'm articulating why I found a scene tonally dissonant due to a few interesting creative choices made by a guy who is an undisputed master of the craft. They strike me as missteps. But if we're down to snarky snips, then it's probably not worth debating further. Wasn't meant to be snark; that's really how I'm processing your criticisms. I just don't agree and am expressing why, mostly because of how cartoonishly evil the head whaler/harpoon guy is depicted up to and including the entire hunt and with how the marine biologist and Spider are right there, being all emblematic of what tones/emotions are being conveyed lmao. I feel like you really can't read the sequence any other way, but I guess you do so  It's all good.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:41
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Doctor Spaceman posted:There is also nothing stopping them mass-producing copies, which I assume is going to happen. Money. Money would be a factor that would prevent the mass-production of recoms.
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Dec 29, 2022 09:47
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The movie is pretty clear that A2-Quarritch isn't the same person as A1-Quarritch. Gonna be funny when Cameron blatantly rips off Matrix Reloaded Smith clones and people call him a genius for it As if ripping off Pocahontas and dances with wolves wasn’t too on the nose already
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Dec 29, 2022 10:38
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MLSM posted:Gonna be funny when Cameron blatantly rips off Matrix Reloaded Smith clones and people call him a genius for it Avatar 4: Everyone Is Quarritch.
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Dec 29, 2022 11:03
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Avatar 5 - Sully 3D prints himself thousands of Avatars to fight the Quaritch army. Actual Na'Vi are neither seen nor mentioned at any point.
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Dec 29, 2022 11:08
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stev posted:Avatar 5 - Sully 3D prints himself thousands of Avatars to fight the Quaritch army. That's the first 5 minutes of resident evil afterlife
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Dec 29, 2022 11:12
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MLSM posted:Gonna be funny when Cameron blatantly rips off Matrix Reloaded Smith clones and people call him a genius for it It's already ripping off Dune (but so does everything, pretty much unavoidable), and it would almost certainly pan out as being more of a rip from there. I doubt the Dune movies are going to go as far as the 'infinite not-clones' bit though, so I think if he does go ahead with that device at least it will seem novel / won't be an odd synchronicity. My main beef with the whaling was that it was from the whalers perspective. We are told the whales are super clever, but shown they are exactly as clever as whales. Would it not have made more sense to film it from the whales perspective, in a parallel to the part earlier where the kid is getting chased by the three jawed shark? Have us relate to the whales? I didn't really see the point of them being both smarter than humans and feeling more emotions than humans, except to really (really) hammer home that it's bad to hunt them? It didn't go anywhere and without anyone saying it out loud it wouldn't have been a thing. Felt like an odd inclusion?
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Dec 29, 2022 11:21
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teagone posted:Money. Money would be a factor that would prevent the mass-production of recoms. I don't mean recreating Helms Deep with Quaritch playing the part of the Uruk-Hai, just a squad of clones. For some reason I really think we're going to see a Quaritch v Quaritch fight.
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Dec 29, 2022 11:27
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!Klams posted:It's already ripping off Dune (but so does everything, pretty much unavoidable), and it would almost certainly pan out as being more of a rip from there. I doubt the Dune movies are going to go as far as the 'infinite not-clones' bit though, so I think if he does go ahead with that device at least it will seem novel / won't be an odd synchronicity. If Disney buys Legendary we can get a crossover where recom Quaritch fights ghola Duncan.
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Dec 29, 2022 12:02
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What a stinker. But I still enjoyed it because of the spectacle (though I regret going to a 3D screening). A couple of times I honestly forgot I was watching CGI. The compositing in particular was really impressive.
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Dec 29, 2022 12:08
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MLSM posted:Gonna be funny when Cameron blatantly rips off Matrix Reloaded Smith clones and people call him a genius for it 1. cry more, 3 billies 2. YEA COLONEL GYITSUUUUMMM
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Dec 29, 2022 12:31
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checkplease posted:and it’s connection to real whale hunting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09cpCqkFwa8 Bugblatter posted:You're right that the scientist giving the rundown has a restrained bitterness in his delivery, it and Spider's kinda worried look is also the strongest emotional response we are shown in the scene. A pretty poor substitute for Neytiri's reaction in the compared scene. But hey, they've got to have some more toys to sell at Disney World's Animal Kingdom, so you have to show them off in the movie, just like in Saturday morning cartoons. teagone posted:Money. Money would be a factor that would prevent the mass-production of recoms. Vir fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 12:43
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Vir posted:I agree that the hunt felt kind of fetishized and drawn out to showcase all the cool mecha designs. If they wanted to focus on the horror of it, they should just have skipped to the sea-Na'vi finding the dead turtle-whales, grieving over the loss of ther soul-sister. Perhaps they should also comment on how the sky-people just killed them without even taking their meat, making the killing completely senseless and a mockery of hunting. I mean, Cameron sets up the emotional trauma by introducing us to the return of the Tulkun and we see how happy they and the Metkayina are during what is presented as a significant migration/cultural event and celebration. We're introduced to Ronal's spirit sister and see that she has a newborn calf, and then cut to a few scenes later where we see the both of them brutally hunted and murdered. Reading that sequence -- which again, is clearly meant to harbor the same effect as the destruction of hometree from the first film -- as a fetishization of whaling to showcase human tech is such a weird interpretation (to me). I get how you can deliberately choose to read it that way I guess? but my brain just personally refuses to parse that sort of engagement. I explicitly remember uttering "jesus christ" when the marine biologist said what the depth charges do. And you can't just skip a singificant narrative/action beat like that imo. Especially since it's the catalyst that gets the otherwise war-averse Metkayina to essentially say "gently caress it" and have them bring the hurt straight to the humans. Also Spider does make a comment about how they only take the immortality goo and waste the rest. This is more related to the post what you quoted, but the obvious display of the marine biologist's moral dilemma and Spider's reaction to the whale killing is more akin to the scene where Selfridge and some of the other human scientists are surrounded by screens displaying the results of the RDA bombing hometree from the first film, where they all have the "what have we done" look on their faces. Ronal's reaction is the obvious parallel to Neytiri's. quote:Time and money is why Jake Sully gets offered the job in the first movie, yeah. Growing one is obviously a significant undertaking. Having an army of Agent Quaritch'es chasing Ma Jakeanderson seems like it might happen though. I'm down with this, especially if it means the first Quaritch recom has to fight/kill versions of himself with the help of Jake lol. teagone fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 13:19
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I like that one dude whose first reaction to entering the crab robot is to punch the fists together, as he is psyching himself up to go punch that whale in the loving face Also who is the tattoo artist that is tattooing these whales
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Dec 29, 2022 13:27
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Leaked footage from Avatar 3: The Lufthansa Heist https://youtu.be/coD7x1-4h9U “His family’s all RATS”
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Dec 29, 2022 13:59
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!Klams posted:My main beef with the whaling was that it was from the whalers perspective. We are told the whales are super clever, but shown they are exactly as clever as whales. Would it not have made more sense to film it from the whales perspective, in a parallel to the part earlier where the kid is getting chased by the three jawed shark? Have us relate to the whales? We literally do see this, from the perspective of the rogue whale.
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Dec 29, 2022 15:05
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!Klams posted:It's already ripping off Dune (but so does everything, pretty much unavoidable), and it would almost certainly pan out as being more of a rip from there. I doubt the Dune movies are going to go as far as the 'infinite not-clones' bit though, so I think if he does go ahead with that device at least it will seem novel / won't be an odd synchronicity. can you please name a movie you actually like already Also it may be hard you to understand these concepts because as you said earlier you don’t even find the “concept” of family as an important thing from your previous post. These are things for the audience so that they can care for the whales in this movie. Whales in real life really are these beautiful and majestic animals and yeah killing them is evil. They hammer it home because whaling IS cruel. Like bro what are you even saying. What is it that you want lol The REAL Goobusters fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 15:09
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The REAL Goobusters posted:can you please name a movie you actually like already I don't really see why listing films I like helps anything? I like a mix of your typical Tarantino, Nolan, Lynch, Malick, Scorcese, Spielberg, Von Trier, Eggers, etc etc, A24, Tartan Asia, Studio Ghibli, etc etc. As I say, while I'm at the cinema watching the movie, there have only ever been 3 movies I wasn't enjoying at the time. Often times I'll come out afterwards and have a poor review of it, but while I'm in the cinema I'm usually totally happy to go along for the ride. I mean, I 'love' film; for what it's worth I've got IMDB credits (I know I am poo poo at it, this isn't a brag, I am bad at these things, I just mention it to show passion, I'm not just some jobber) and my best friend has an Emmy. I'm sorry if I've offended you with my take, I didn't mean to. I think probably I need to be much more explicit, that it was the worst cinemagoing experience I've had, and that quality is subjective, and there isn't really a nadir or an apex for preference even among one person. I just don't really know how else to describe how little enjoyment I got out of seeing Avatar 2 at the cinema. That's not to say the people involved didn't do a great job. The technology we see on screen is all insanely impressive, it seems like the actors did an incredible job of doing something very few have done, the art department and continuity department, financial team, probably catering since it seems like everyone was happy on set, all seem to have done incredible things. The director has successfully conveyed his vision, despite the HoD's not being able to see the fictional universe going on inside his head, so however it is they've gotten that out (storyboarding / mock ups / just, communication between departments) it's all phenomenal. This isn't me backtracking, either, I'm fairly sure I said this outright originally. It's just that what I got, the final piece of 'art' fell INCREDIBLY flat for me. That's why I came in to talk about it, because, it is surprising to me, how much I've bounced off it. It's why in my post I make suggestions as to why it might fall short for 'me' in particular. Would I rather watch this or Christmas with the Kranks again? Actually Christmas. Because this is so much longer. And, y'know, that IS part of the experience, part of the judgement of the thing. And prior to this, that was the film I would least like to rewatch. As to the whale point though, like, I care about whales. I don't want whales to get lanced, I think its bad. But it's like they go, "No, you don't understand, you REALLY don't want these ones to get lanced because its bad times a million!" ... I know. I know it's bad. Whales in real life really are these beautiful and majestic animals. I've swam with them! It's incredible! To me, saying, "No but killing THESE ones is like killing humans only they feel it MORE" sort of suggests like killing earth whales isn't that big a deal, because they're not smarter / more emotive than us. I guess that's possibly another reason it kinda stunk for me. James Cameron CLEARLY loves the ocean. His love is incredibly apparent on the screen, and when we get to the underwater section, it feels like the previous act has just been getting itself out of the way to make way for the water time! And, in a way, it should, it IS the Way of the Water. But, it's like Peter Bradshaw says in his review, there aren't really any inspiring memorable images*. (Almost, with the Temple at Eclipse, but without any real sense of context, and no real meaning to anchor it to, it sort of falls off). Which is weird, diving in the red sea is one of the most vivid inspiring things I'll ever see in my life. But, I can't really recall any specific image of the underwater stuff in particular. I don't really think this film is going to inspire people to take up diving en-masse. Maybe it is, I hope I'm wrong, but for me, I could see HIS love and passion on the screen, but it didn't inspire any in me at all. *-(OBVIOUSLY, it all looks amazing. But I think most people would be hard pressed to draw from memory any single frame of this movie).
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Dec 29, 2022 16:03
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The movie is pretty clear that A2-Quarritch isn't the same person as A1-Quarritch. Bugblatter posted:Eh, I dunno that a backup clone would make me want to stop aging. As the movie repeats a few times, that clone wouldn't be me. My own conscious life experience wouldn't continue into the copy. I do agree that the movie arc is that Quaritch-Blue is now not the old one, just has the same memories. But if we just kept living, we could change also and perhaps not resemble our selves 50 years ago. I like to think at least that adult parent me differs from college me. Then there’s the whole question of what defines the person initially. Is it just their memories? New Quaritch has a different body and new experiences leading to his change, but when he is first reborn how different does he feel? I wonder if the backup copy has perfect memory vs forgetting things as you live an extra 50 years from not aging. But I do agree rich may want anti aging if only to not lose their youthful beauty in the short term.
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Dec 29, 2022 16:05
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Vir posted:It seems to be more like a sci-fi version of Moby Dick than anything resembling actual whaling. Explosive-tipped harpoons are actually used today, but their purpose is to instantly stun and kill the whale with one shot. It's hard to turn a current day whale kill into an action scene, since it's over so quickly. A lot of the tools shown are based on historic whaling. The balloons are similar to wooden floats attached to harpoons used in the past centuries. While probably not used intentionally, we know that sonar seems to upset whales and lead to beaching like the sonic weapons in the movie. And as you noted, explosive harpoons are real today and very effective. But like most things on pandora these whales have thicker armor and are tougher to kill. And also maybe they have to be careful about how much damage they do as they risk that brain goo.
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Dec 29, 2022 16:15
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SadisTech posted:That isn't immortality though. That's having a copy made of you. Might be some consolation to think that another you would keep going on but the actual you is going to be dead. I can see the clone and copy working once for rich assholes. The original wakes up and realizes he's still in the original body and the new version of him is the one that gets to live on. Years later, when it's getting time for the clone to copy himself, he starts to panic and look for other ways since he already knows firsthand that he doesn't actually get to live forever.
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Dec 29, 2022 16:26
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