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MassRafTer posted:He never spoke another word on WCW TV. Wasn't Savage in terrible shape at that point?
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Dec 31, 2022 05:49
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SatoshiMiwa posted:Bischoff did a lot of damage and had to go but before Russo you had enough talent and loyal audience that you could rebuild the company. It'd take awhile but it could be done. Russo signed his contract on 10/3/99. I suppose it's theoretically possible that you could save WCW at that point. But that's only if we imagine that we could, like, Quantum Leap our minds into Bischoff or Russo or Woodmaster and make them be different people. Hogan and Nash are always going to do what's best for themselves at the expense of everyone who isn't a personal friend. Bischoff and Russo are always going to be motivated by hosed-up personal issues with women and taller, more muscular men. So like, by October 99: On paper, the company had the most profitable year in wrestling history last year. But Nitro hasn't beaten Raw in the ratings in almost a year, in spite of Bischoff's increasingly desperate hot-shotting. The company is losing millions a month. Morale is plummeting and talent is leaving. PPV gates start declining suddenly right before Russo takes over. Creatively: They've blown millions on publicity stunts and entire stables that were just a bust, like the No Limit Soldiers. Nash ended Goldberg's streak. DDP has been relegated to the midcard. Jericho is gone. Raven is gone. The Radicalz are about to bail. Relations with the Mexican promotions and wrestlers have already soured even before Russo's racist poo poo. Publicity stunts like Master P, Rodman, and KISS have been expensive failures. Speaking of which, Warrior was a bust. Also creatively: Goldberg has been arrested for "aggravated stalking" of Miss Elizabeth. Flair has been in a bunch of humiliating angles, so much that it's hurting business, and this includes David's entire career. The Fingerpoke. Rey has been unmasked. Schiavone has spoiled Foley winning a title on Raw. Warrior has appeared in the mirror. The Poop Feud. Hall's drunk angle. The Junkyard Invitational. All kinds of legendarily bad angles that Russo is often blamed for, that happened before he signed on. In conclusion, Captain Invictus posted:lots more baseball bats
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Dec 31, 2022 06:44
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At best WCW's death knell could have been delayed by decent booking. It was still an incredible mess of business practices and money burning. And it wasn't TNA that had a handful of people content to keep its corpse propped up indefinitely. Hogan was always a poison pill that could (and was) used to allow you to grow in the short term but would kill you long-term unless you know when to cut bait.
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Dec 31, 2022 07:40
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MassRafTer posted:It was making Kevin Nash the head booker and booking the worst TV in history that cut the buyrates so low the company went from making more money than any company in history to losing money in one year. This was my submission to that "what killed wcw" tournament thread and I'll stand by it to the day I die, rip wcw you lived and died by the poop
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Dec 31, 2022 09:31
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Dawgstar posted:Wasn't Savage in terrible shape at that point? yes but who was he talking about?!
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Dec 31, 2022 14:15
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Dawgstar posted:An equally interesting question is whom he might have listened to for such a talk. I think Andre the Giant would have been the only person Hogan would have sincerely listened to. Andre, unfortunately was no longer with us by then. Maxwell Lord posted:It's impossible to pinpoint one decision because they made SO MANY bad ones, they stepped on every rake they could in the space of two-odd years. ... Was it the Nitro where the champ lost the title in the first hour and got it back in the main event? WWE later did that on a PPV with HHH and Orton.
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Dec 31, 2022 14:26
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https://twitter.com/vintagepuro/status/1609191738467561472 In lighter news, I think this is an upgrade over Chris Lemmon.
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Dec 31, 2022 15:19
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I only started watching wrestling at all in mid 98. I actually loved the finger poke when it happened since I’d missed the “glory days” of the nwo and thought they’d be back with nash and hogan together again. Then they just played weird trolling pranks on Bryan Adams and Horace and nothing else really came of it.
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Dec 31, 2022 15:29
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Shard posted:Can anyone give examples of Nash's terrible booking that killed the buyrate It's not as flashy as any of the big stories like the Fingerpoke or the poop feud, but one story I read in a recap of when Nash first started booking stuck with me. It was 1998, and one of WCW's generic large men was starting to get over as a cool guy who does powerbombs. Maybe it was Scott Norton, maybe it was Hugh Morris, it's been a while and the specific guy doesn't really matter. The point is, Nash was in the middle of his feud with Goldberg and he needed to make it look like he could win. So, Nash took this guy who was getting over in a similar niche to him and he beat his rear end, and he cut a promo on how if he could end this guy's streak this easily think about what he'll do to Goldberg. And then that midcard big guy was never over again because he got clowned on, and that's one more act WCW failed to do anything with. People always talk about how WCW never made any stars, but their real sin is refusing to let 90% of their roster even try to be stars. That's always going to get under my skin.
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Dec 31, 2022 15:59
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Lurks With Wolves posted:It's not as flashy as any of the big stories like the Fingerpoke or the poop feud, but one story I read in a recap of when Nash first started booking stuck with me. It was 1998, and one of WCW's generic large men was starting to get over as a cool guy who does powerbombs. Maybe it was Scott Norton, maybe it was Hugh Morris, it's been a while and the specific guy doesn't really matter. The point is, Nash was in the middle of his feud with Goldberg and he needed to make it look like he could win. So, Nash took this guy who was getting over in a similar niche to him and he beat his rear end, and he cut a promo on how if he could end this guy's streak this easily think about what he'll do to Goldberg. And then that midcard big guy was never over again because he got clowned on, and that's one more act WCW failed to do anything with. It was Wrath, https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=1685 I don't think Brian Clark was ever going to get over big time, but he was at the very least getting some traction for once in his career. The time I stopped watching WCW was pretty much as soon as they stopped opening with the Lucha matches. I swear it felt like nearly every Raw was opening with a 15-20 minute promo that was boring as hell if it wasn't Austin. The friends I watched Monday Nights with, we'd flip back and forth depending on what was on. The Lucha matches were always fun and were a much better way to open shows.
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Dec 31, 2022 17:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruk-J-7o_44 According to 12 year old me Kronik was cool
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Dec 31, 2022 17:38
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syzpid posted:It was Wrath, Both Wrath, Mortis and of course Glacier were victims of WCW going in favor of the NWO instead of the clearly superior Mortal Kombat-inspired trajectory.
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Dec 31, 2022 17:47
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Sandman McMahon posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruk-J-7o_44 Kronik was 2 huge dudes who beat rear end, of course they were cool. They were never going to win any awards for quality of wrestling but they filled a niche for sure.
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Dec 31, 2022 17:48
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My friends and I always called them "K Roni K" and we will never stop
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Dec 31, 2022 18:20
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syzpid posted:It was Wrath, Thanks. And yeah, he would have capped out at "cool mid-card guy", but having more cool mid-card guys would have made the post-Fingerpoke period more bearable.
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Dec 31, 2022 18:37
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Just here to say that im not probated, banned nor permabanned. Also i dont remember kronik. Goodbye.
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Dec 31, 2022 18:49
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poo poo, I'm 34 and still think Kronik whips rear end. Their theme rules.
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Jan 1, 2023 07:57
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That promo Savage cut on that late 99 Nitro is very bizarre and I'm not sure anyone (including himself) knew who he was talking about.
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Jan 1, 2023 08:52
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Sandman McMahon posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruk-J-7o_44 It is quite hard to think of an entrance theme that is more late 90s early 2000s chugga-chugga-chugga-eletric guitar poo poo. You could slap this bad boy on any PlayStation demo disk or awful first party shooter and nobody would blink an eye.
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Jan 1, 2023 12:29
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weed lol
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Jan 1, 2023 15:02
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Ric Flair's one weakness being Ron Gavin's Fist of Stone is great. Every couple of weeks we get to see Ron deck Ric and knock Ric out.
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Jan 1, 2023 18:16
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The more I think about it the more I think it was unavoidable to hire Russo. It would have been malpractice to not hire a guy who was at least apart of the huge comeback by WWF. Knowing what we know now it was the end but I remember at the time thinking it would turn things around. I was hyped for a better WCW after that dreadful summer Nash run.
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Jan 1, 2023 19:54
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IIRC didn't every back office guy WCW poached from Titan/WWE end up bombing for them cause it ended up that they weren't really the ones doing the work everyone thought they did? I remember when they poached Don Glass to book arenas from Titan and it turns out he didn't really do that and was more just doing basic office work and ended up bombing really badly for WCW
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Jan 1, 2023 20:15
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What if the David Arquette that won the title in 2000 was the 2018 version of him that actually trained hard to be a wrestler?
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Jan 1, 2023 23:55
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i don't think arquette was the problem tbqh
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Jan 2, 2023 00:12
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Putting the belt on Arquette was a terrible idea for several reasons, none of which are fixable with training or steroids. It's not like he was a bad worker by celebrity guest standards.
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Jan 2, 2023 01:06
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was it kevin nash or vince russo who booked a wrestling show with no wrestling
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Jan 2, 2023 01:53
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I don't think that actually happened. Nash booked a Nitro with no wrestling in the first hour, like as soon as he got the book.
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Jan 2, 2023 02:18
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't think that actually happened. Nash booked a Nitro with no wrestling in the first hour, like as soon as he got the book. thats the show i was thinking of lol what a disaster
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Jan 2, 2023 02:21
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I guess Russo technically did because the week before the Russo/Bischoff era was a clip show where the announcers talked about how cool it was that Bischoff and Russo were teaming up.
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Jan 2, 2023 02:30
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I can understand hiring Russo, in that if you're producing a low-performing sitcom in 1999 and you suddenly get the chance to hire the writers of Frasier, you'd probably take it regardless of what level you're at. What gets me is that he (and Ferrara) seemed to get zero oversight, which otherwise seems to be very common in media production. Producers have always turned down stories and scripts in all media, for better or worse. Many pitches for shows like Friends were turned down even though those involved were of a fairly high rank. I get that corporate types don't actually care about wrestling, but so many of Russo's ideas were things he'd clearly pitched at WWF before (rightly) being turned down or significantly minimised: appearing on screen, the endless Jeff Jarrett push, having a JR impersonator, doing matches with no rules, more worked shoots, etc. Like, this stuff started showing up IMMEDIATELY in greater numbers after he was hired. I feel like the big problem was just that corporate didn't give a poo poo anymore because eh, it's only loving wrestling, who cares. Hedgehog Pie fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jan 2, 2023 |
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Jan 2, 2023 02:57
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They reacted to Russo making things much worse as quickly as possible in all reality. He was hired in October and they told him to be a part of a committee after his awful Tank Abbott as world champ pitch in January. The problem is they thought Bischoff could be that mediator they needed and lol
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Jan 2, 2023 03:59
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I do wonder who could of actually taken over creative and not be a retread at the time. Maybe Gabe?
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Jan 2, 2023 06:33
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Paul Heyman would have probably been a good choice, but he was never really an option.
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Jan 2, 2023 07:17
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thinking about what a heyman booked 2000 wcw looks like. its hard
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Jan 2, 2023 14:18
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Lurks With Wolves posted:It's not as flashy as any of the big stories like the Fingerpoke or the poop feud, but one story I read in a recap of when Nash first started booking stuck with me. It was 1998, and one of WCW's generic large men was starting to get over as a cool guy who does powerbombs. Maybe it was Scott Norton, maybe it was Hugh Morris, it's been a while and the specific guy doesn't really matter. The point is, Nash was in the middle of his feud with Goldberg and he needed to make it look like he could win. So, Nash took this guy who was getting over in a similar niche to him and he beat his rear end, and he cut a promo on how if he could end this guy's streak this easily think about what he'll do to Goldberg. And then that midcard big guy was never over again because he got clowned on, and that's one more act WCW failed to do anything with. The worst example of this is Lance Storm. He was a triple-champion (US, TV and Hardcore) with entertaining matches, a fun character and his own faction. One Nitro, he's cutting a promo in the ring when Nash saunters down the ramp and powerbombs him right in the middle of the ring and leaves him laying. At no point were Nash and Lance feuding. People rightly poo poo on Hogan but Nash was every bit as bad. And he didn't have the drawing power that Hogan did to justify it.
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Jan 2, 2023 14:45
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Ziggy Tzardust posted:The worst example of this is Lance Storm. He was a triple-champion (US, TV and Hardcore) with entertaining matches, a fun character and his own faction. One Nitro, he's cutting a promo in the ring when Nash saunters down the ramp and powerbombs him right in the middle of the ring and leaves him laying. At no point were Nash and Lance feuding. People rightly poo poo on Hogan but Nash was every bit as bad. And he didn't have the drawing power that Hogan did to justify it. We give Nash more of a pass because he's charming and doesn't seem nearly as horrible as Hogan has turned out to be but Big Sexy was as bad for WCW as time went on.
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Jan 2, 2023 16:06
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UnleashedDad posted:They reacted to Russo making things much worse as quickly as possible in all reality. He was hired in October and they told him to be a part of a committee after his awful Tank Abbott as world champ pitch in January.
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Jan 2, 2023 16:38
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Suplex Liberace posted:thinking about what a heyman booked 2000 wcw looks like. its hard It's hard because of how tainted WCW already was in its overall brand and the diehard fans who were sticking around would have to really have to be sold on whatever revolutionary change Heyman would attempt to bring, that's not even counting the crippling grandfathered albatross contracts still hurting them at the time. The best case scenario is probably something involving guys like the Radicalz buying in and gradually having the company built around them and complementary opponents like early 2000s Smackdown. In this scenario Benoit doesn't go psychotic and Eddie lives a long healthy life. This is also contingent on Heyman only playing to his strengths and being kept in check to not let his pettiness, juvenile indulgences and being shady AF get in the way of his booking and creativity. It's a big slippery slope there.
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Jan 2, 2023 17:33
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At a minimum, I think Heyman would have had better ideas for guys like Douglas and Mike Awesome, both of whom were cringeworthy in WCW in 2000 (everything was). There would have probably been similarly juvenile stuff with the women as Russo came up with, but Paul was always good about having exciting wrestling on his shows, which the traditional WCW crowd typically responded to. I doubt that he could have turned the company around, seeing as how he's not exactly a business genius. The dying days would have been much more entertaining than what we got, though. I think Warner or whoever still pulls the plug.
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Jan 2, 2023 17:56
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