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Sir Lemming posted:But in TIL you find out fairly early, when they start cutting to the crew trying to wake Picard up -- but I'm not sure that really adds much to the episode, dramatically. It's tricky, I think Inner Light could work better if you'd cut out the cuts back to the Enterprise, since you see Picard cling to the idea that his life on the ship is real for years until he starts giving it up, and that might be stronger if you aren't repeatedly reminded that it is real. But on the other hand, I could see that making it more dull, since life on the planet is shown in a very cheap TV manner.
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Jan 3, 2023 07:15
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Inner Light's civilization's plan also doesn't work if it's not a humanoid, heterosexual, mammalian, sexually reproducing with only 2 genders, male finding the flute. If a lesbian Horta found the flute, or a Medusan, the preprogrammed storyline would go off the rails. Though it would be hilarious to watch, and "Inner Light Probe Fails" would probably make for a great LDS bit.
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Jan 3, 2023 09:19
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Ehhh, it’s easy to handwave that and say the probe would either a) scan specifically for a person who fits that particular life pretty well or b) makes appropriate changes to the program to suit the selected person.
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Jan 3, 2023 09:24
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I have zero concern for the plausibility of The Inner Light. It's just not that kind of episode.davidspackage posted:It's tricky, I think Inner Light could work better if you'd cut out the cuts back to the Enterprise, since you see Picard cling to the idea that his life on the ship is real for years until he starts giving it up, and that might be stronger if you aren't repeatedly reminded that it is real. That's a better way of phrasing my issue with the episode, thank you for pinpointing it. I think that's why I don't really feel what Picard's going through the way I want to. Granted I do think it would've been much harder to write that way and still keep it interesting and believable, and still make sense and feel good when it all goes back to normal at the end. It's way harder to do that without doing the early reveal of what's going on. But still, I think that's the version of the episode I'm left wanting.
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Jan 3, 2023 13:58
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Sir Lemming posted:I have zero concern for the plausibility of The Inner Light. It's just not that kind of episode. I think you'd have to handle it like that one Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode where she's in an asylum, and the villain is trying to convince her that the series up till now has been a delusion. Not that severe, obviously, since Picard's "delusion" isn't the focus of the episode, but instead of literally cutting back to the Enterprise, just have little bits poking through the simulation every now and then.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:06
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Ehhh, it’s easy to handwave that and say the probe would either a) scan specifically for a person who fits that particular life pretty well or b) makes appropriate changes to the program to suit the selected person. A procedurally-generated life based on a dataset of Ressikan civilization and the prompt is a flute that they stick in the probe
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Jan 3, 2023 17:09
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As long as we're nitpicking Inner Light, I wonder if what would have shown up if Picard/Kamin had gone to the nearest doctor and gotten his chest x-rayed. Artificial heart? Biological heart thumping away in there?
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Jan 3, 2023 17:29
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Epicurius posted:The Inner Light is sad, but Tapestry is better because it adds to Picard's characterization. We learn more about who Picard is and how he became that person, and generally, things that happen to your main characters are more impactful than things that happen to one off characters we meet once and never will again. Exactly, and Tapestry has a universal message that could apply to anyone: that the path not taken is not necessarily the better path, and that pain and guilt are part of what makes us who we are. To be clear, I don't dislike Inner Light at all; it's a sweet episode but I think there are better episodes that advance Picard's character arc (Chain of Command being another one).
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Jan 3, 2023 17:42
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Stayne Falls posted:I think you'd have to handle it like that one Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode where she's in an asylum, and the villain is trying to convince her that the series up till now has been a delusion. The series did that episode so poorly, it showed Buffy initially getting corrupted rather than starting in media res with her already in the asylum delusion. There’s no doubt in the viewer’s mind that the delusion is false, while a good episode would play with that a little.
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Jan 3, 2023 19:33
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Tapestry would have us believe that a person's personality can be fundamentally redefined by a single event, which is something I am skeptical of.
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Jan 3, 2023 20:19
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Kurzon posted:Tapestry would have us believe that a person's personality can be fundamentally redefined by a single event, which is something I am skeptical of. It’s called ptsd, op
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Jan 3, 2023 20:20
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I don't think so. There was a single defining moment for Picard, but it doesn't mean that one moment explains his whole life.
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Jan 3, 2023 20:20
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Kurzon posted:Tapestry would have us believe that a person's personality can be fundamentally redefined by a single event, which is something I am skeptical of.
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Jan 3, 2023 20:47
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Kurzon posted:Tapestry would have us believe that a person's personality can be fundamentally redefined by a single event, which is something I am skeptical of. Arivia posted:It’s called ptsd, op Keep in mind, that single defining moment in question is called "literally dying" with a side of coming back despite your number clearly being up. As someone who went through that exact situation once, I can safely say that yes, it is indeed a profoundly life-altering experience,and I do certain things in my life now and take certain things into account that I never used to before I literally almost died.
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Jan 3, 2023 20:55
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nine-gear crow posted:Keep in mind, that single defining moment in question is called "literally dying" with a side of coming back despite your number clearly being up. As someone who went through that exact situation once, I can safely say that yes, it is indeed a profoundly life-altering experience,and I do certain things in my life now and take certain things into account that I never used to before I literally almost died. Yeah, same. For me it was COVID yaaaay
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Jan 3, 2023 20:56
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Arivia posted:Yeah, same. For me it was COVID yaaaay H1-N1 for me.
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Jan 3, 2023 20:57
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Heart attack at 39 for me.
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Jan 3, 2023 20:57
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But, it can and does happen. You're at an intersection with a Wendy's and a Burger King. The ultimate in mundane decisions: which fast food burger you're going to eat. You turn right and go to Burger King. There's no appreciable difference in the course of your life. You turn left because you decided that the drive thru line was too long. And that's when you lose both your legs because a cement truck T-bones you when he runs a red light. You never get that Frosty, but instead become an embittered Lt Dan type.
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Jan 3, 2023 21:01
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I've never been close to death, but a lot of surgeries to correct an orthopedic problem at a young age make it easy for me to empathize with Picard. If you took away all those surgeries, I wouldn't be who I am today, good or bad. For all the crap Star Trek V gets, Kirk's line that "pain and guilt are what make us what we are. We lose those, we lose ourselves" was actually quite profound (that's about as close as the movie ever gets to having an actual 'message').
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Jan 3, 2023 21:04
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I'm honestly glad to see some cold water poured on The Inner Light here, its one of those episodes that always is in the top of lists of TNG episodes, and wouldn't even come close to cracking the top 10 of my favorites so its nice to see I'm not completely alone. I certainly don't dislike the episode, and I can recognize it as a good episode and how it helped shape an aspect of Picard going forward, but i just don't enjoy watching it much. I almost never rewatch it and its never ending inclusion at the top of lists always seemed odd to me when there are so many great TNG episodes out there.
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Jan 3, 2023 21:10
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bull3964 posted:Heart attack at 39 for me. Getting accepted to university for me; I had all the paperwork done and agreements made for starting as a salaried drill sergeant waiting for the next pre-cadet course to start, in case I was not admitted. I still have that paperwork and post-it-note with a phone number to call to set the process rolling in my home office, to remind me what could have been the other way.
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Jan 3, 2023 21:36
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https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/status/1610310696473968641 Good lord that is cool
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Jan 3, 2023 22:16
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The Inner Light caused my father to take up the piccolo. He spent years learning similar instruments and ended up with a large collection of native american made wooden wind instruments. It brought him so much joy and would travel around the country looking for pieces to add to his collection. I still think back on the memories of him trying to learn the Boat Song from the episode, hearing the sound echo through our house as I was falling asleep. For me The Inner Light is #1.
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Jan 3, 2023 22:19
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Burning_Monk posted:The Inner Light caused my father to take up the piccolo. He spent years learning similar instruments and ended up with a large collection of native american made wooden wind instruments. That is beautiful. 
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Jan 3, 2023 22:24
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Sir Lemming posted:I have zero concern for the plausibility of The Inner Light. It's just not that kind of episode. Frame of Mind does "your life on a starship was a fantasy" better IMO Never thought of it before but those would make interesting companion pieces to watch back to back Drink-Mix Man fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 3, 2023 |
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Jan 3, 2023 22:56
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Frame of Mind is really fun because it plays with your expectations more. Sure, Riker is still really himself, but is he in a holographic simulation, or are these real people? Is he having another vision coma because the budget ran out? Inner Light might've benefitted from doing a cold open and only having Picard wake up on the Enterprise at the end, but that'd also be kind of a wet fart "had to wrap this up and explain it in two minutes" end. Speaking of perspectives, I would've liked to see the episode where Thomas Riker appears, play entirely from his perspective. Stuck on this station for years, finally, rescue, oh poo poo this guy stole my life!
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Jan 3, 2023 23:07
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Brawnfire posted:A procedurally-generated life based on a dataset of Ressikan civilization and the prompt is a flute that they stick in the probe The probe had an onboard replicator and replicates the instrument the person goes with. 
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Jan 3, 2023 23:18
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I watched the mst3k space mutiny episode last night and it's very funny that jjtrek took the same approach to engineering.
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Jan 3, 2023 23:33
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I don't think Picard had any agency in "The Inner Light." At the beginning of the hallucination, he had memories of the Enterprise, but it was quickly subsumed by the memories contained within the probe with the illness backstory to fill in for why they only start at a specific point. From that point forward, he was a passive consumer of what was being downloaded into his brain. He may have felt like he was doing the things, but it wasn't any different than any other implanted memory. The experience just wasn't as traumatic as what O'Brian went through and I bet they had some other tricks to make the memory feel more 3rd person the further from the experience he got to minimize any changes in his personality. As far as tapestry goes, I've always liked that it's ambiguous. It can be read literally, Q did it, or it could be read as a near death experience and a hallucination that is created by Picard's mind from regret over his past decisions followed by a reconciliation of those feelings. The ONLY hint that it's literal is the "laughing while getting stabbed" but even that can be written off as unreliable narrator. I have respect for the fact that the writers never felt the need for Q to mention it on future encounters.
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Jan 3, 2023 23:36
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bull3964 posted:I don't think Picard had any agency in "The Inner Light." At the beginning of the hallucination, he had memories of the Enterprise, but it was quickly subsumed by the memories contained within the probe with the illness backstory to fill in for why they only start at a specific point. From that point forward, he was a passive consumer of what was being downloaded into his brain. He may have felt like he was doing the things, but it wasn't any different than any other implanted memory. The experience just wasn't as traumatic as what O'Brian went through and I bet they had some other tricks to make the memory feel more 3rd person the further from the experience he got to minimize any changes in his personality. His wife gives him ten years of loving around with telescopes before she tells him it's time to come back to their planet and live their life. It's easy to think of it being quick in our viewing of the episode, but in the story's timeline Picard keeps at it with a lot of dedication for a long while. And only AFTER that does he really turn his attention to the stuff about testing the soil, agitating for better hydration technobabble widgets, and so on - which is clearly connected to his Starfleet training and his scientist daughter comments on being special and unique about him and what inspired her. No, there's a ton of evidence in the Inner Light that Picard was in control the whole time and just gradually settled into living this other life.
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Jan 3, 2023 23:46
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cenotaph posted:I watched the mst3k space mutiny episode last night and it's very funny that jjtrek took the same approach to engineering. I was busting up in the theater at every engineering scene for this reason. Wouldn't this basement make the Enterprise bottom heavy?
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Jan 3, 2023 23:48
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The issue to me is that it is simply too ambitious. The episode is cool and entertaining, but you have to accept it with the caveat that it can't deliver. Picard should be a fundamentally different person, not just "I clutch my flute to my chest" at the end. That's simply beyond the scope of a television show. Instead you'd have him struggling to remember who Riker is, hating tea, and maybe not even remembering English.
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Jan 3, 2023 23:52
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Roll Phaserbeef
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Jan 3, 2023 23:53
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CPColin posted:Roll Phaserbeef Huck Torpedoslab
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Jan 3, 2023 23:54
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He was clearly being railroaded into living the life the probe wanted, while being allowed to go on dumb side quests along the way. But I'm also in the eh camp. It's a cool concept for sci-fi, and it belongs in Trek absolutely, but the actual story and the one dimensional characters in the probe are just not particularly interesting. It just has 5, max 10 minutes of actual justification, since we have no investment in the characters going forward and Picard isn't even really himself. The whole thing with dealing with the memory should have been a much bigger part of the episode honestly. I do like that the flute becomes a part of the Picard character though.
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Jan 3, 2023 23:55
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I figure it's like a dream. The probe contains an infodump that human brains translate into an immersive experience, though much stronger and more coherent than the ones naturally generated by a sleeping mind. It's quite possible that after it ended, the experience faded so that only the general gist of the message, and some important details (like the flute) remained.
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Jan 3, 2023 23:58
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CPColin posted:Roll Phaserbeef This would be very appropriate for jj Spock.
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Jan 4, 2023 00:42
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Scream Neckpinch
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Jan 4, 2023 00:51
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Sir Lemming posted:I have zero concern for the plausibility of The Inner Light. It's just not that kind of episode. Yeah, this is where I'm at with it too. Some folks might be at risk of becoming Neil deGrasse Tyson's twitter account here. The science just ain't the point
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Jan 4, 2023 00:52
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Sash! posted:The issue to me is that it is simply too ambitious. The episode is cool and entertaining, but you have to accept it with the caveat that it can't deliver. I think that's kind of one of those fundamental "willing suspension of disbelief" elements of the series next to FTL and teleporters, though, because a bunch of stories would realistically end with the character leaving the show or otherwise being permanently different in a way that sucks for follow-on writers (and, arguably, viewers) to deal with.
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