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Kira killed millinons by proxy for letting jbril go
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Jan 5, 2023 04:13
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Tae posted:Kira killed millinons by proxy for letting jbril go To be fair SEED is such a hell hole of a setting that it's the one Gundam setting where it eventually getting Moonlight Butterfly'd actually feels justified
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Jan 5, 2023 04:17
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Azran posted:IIRC it's the Gundam pilots trying to avoid unnecesary bloodshed and then comes Heero to blast the whole area from above, enemies be damned. yeah like, EW presents the attempts to not kill anybody as a nice sentiment but ultimately it takes Heero being willing to blow up a child to actually get anything done.
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Jan 5, 2023 04:33
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I don't like Endless Waltz much but in the actual show, it's a pretty big plot point that Relena has to compromise and let Heero and I think Quatre defend the Sanc Kingdom. The message is pretty explicitly "some level of violence is necessary for self-defense of a pacifist nation."
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Jan 5, 2023 05:12
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They got guys parchuting out like fuckin GI joe. So yeah Heero knocks teeth out but the other three are doing the saturday morning cartoon version.
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Jan 5, 2023 05:15
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Despite being the most "character turns to the camera and starts expositing about pacifism" show, I really think wing in general has a much more nuanced view of pacifism than strictly pro. Relena specifically is given some very good reasons to want to embrace bloodshed, and then does! Her attempted assassination of lady une is like the best moment in the show. She later inherits a philosophy of total pacifism that she doesn't fully understand or believe in, and spends a lot of time talking with dorothy and other characters about as she personally struggles with reconciling the self-perpetuating nature of violence with the fact that without a means of violent self defense such ideals will get bulldozed over. The sanc kingdom gets attacked for being a threat to Rockefeller and relena would've been wiped out if not for noin and the gundam pilots secretly preparing weapons of violence under her nose for specifically this occasion. But as Queen of the World and through her influence while running the sanc kingdom she is successfully able to enact real change from pushing total pacifism. I'd say the end conclusion of the show is that violence is absolutely necessary, but you truly do need someone pushing for nonviolent solutions even when it seems like violence is the only way. Without that element you stay stuck with "violence begets violence" forever. Tbh as someone who's never seen seed the idea that gundam as a franchise isn't super duper pro punching nazis in the face is just ridiculous to me. It's so frustrating when people see nuance and immediately shortcut to "oh so you think punching nazis is actually bad?" or "this is just both-sidesism." No but when you're talking about the scale of a nation it's more loving complicated than "just shoot them all and feel great about it"
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Jan 5, 2023 05:20
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Azran posted:IIRC it's the Gundam pilots trying to avoid unnecesary bloodshed and then comes Heero to blast the whole area from above, enemies be damned. Nena Trinity decided to blow up a wedding with her Gundam cause she was bored.
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Jan 5, 2023 05:23
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I mean you can kill a space nazi and still feel bad about it, even if what you did was 100% the right move. We generally shouldn't want to kill other humans but unfortunately poo poo happens and people die as a result. You could either be awful about it like Amuro's mom or you can learn to live with it and move on as best you can. Gundam gets it right most of the time by pointing out that space nazis are bad and should be stopped but it doesn't immediately make stopping space nazis into a "gently caress yeah, kill em all!" festival of violence to be celebrated. Killing people sucks. It's okay to feel like poo poo for killing people. Some people are awful and need to be killed. By the time we're killing people the chance to avoid the conflict has long passed and now we're stuck with the poo poo job of ending things as best we can. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Jan 5, 2023 |
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Jan 5, 2023 05:25
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ninjewtsu posted:Despite being the most "character turns to the camera and starts expositing about pacifism" show, I really think wing in general has a much more nuanced view of pacifism than strictly pro. Arc Hammer posted:I mean you can kill a space nazi and still feel bad about it, even if what you did was 100% the right move. We generally shouldn't want to kill other humans but unfortunately poo poo happens and people die as a result. You could either be awful about it like Amuro's mom or you can learn to live with it and move on as best you can. Gundam gets it right most of the time by pointing out that space nazis are bad and should be stopped but it doesn't immediately make stopping space nazis into a "gently caress yeah, kill em all!" festival of violence to be celebrated. At least there's some sanity left in the world. This attitude is far too common in recent years. On this very forum you have plenty of folks are just like "lol kill 'em all!" The vey definition of keyboard warriors, only masking it behind righteousness. When I got into Gundam, I found many critiques of the Federation countered with "well what about Zeon? Aren't they worse? And you have to explain that just because Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan are bad, it doesn't make the British Empire good, to borrow the obvious allegory of 0079.
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Jan 5, 2023 05:36
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It's the paradox of tolerance except applied to war. If one wants to maintain a peaceful society, one must be prepared to fight against those who would threaten that peace.
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Jan 5, 2023 05:38
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Fascist societies don't just spring from the ground full of evil ghouls for you to slay. They're created when legitimate grievances are co-opted by power hungry assholes and the blame is redirected towards something else, allowing said power hungry assholes to control people who are lashing out because of those original issues. When fascism has taken control you have to use violence to stop it but the people you're using violence against aren't always going to be comic book villains. Some of them are. Some others are going to be people who in other circumstances would be good but are stuck fighting for a fascist regime. Maybe they've been tricked by the fascist propaganda, maybe they're there against their will, maybe they simply haven't questioned things very much because they're hurting real bad and a solution has been waved in front of their face. You have to kill some of these people, but to simply say "I refuse to empathize with these people, they are necessary sacrifices for me to gun down" is loving awful. No, it's not "being as bad as the fascists" but a lack of empathy for others is certainly not how you build a better world, and on an individual level the fact that these people have to die - or that they don't have to die! But many of them die anyway - is loving tragic
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Jan 5, 2023 05:45
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EDIT: NVM I'm just repeating stuff everyone knows. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jan 5, 2023 |
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Jan 5, 2023 05:49
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Just realized the high mobility zakus in doans island skate around like scope dog
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Jan 5, 2023 07:14
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Stairmaster posted:Just realized the high mobility zakus in doans island skate around like scope dog It's more like an IBO suit or an Armored Core, (Or, sticking to UC Gundam, a Dom) since the flight is done with a booster. Chu-chu's Demi-trainer, by contrast, has heelies like a Scopedog.
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Jan 5, 2023 07:18
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I've been watching through Zeta Gundam since that's on Youtube. Mostly done at this point. I really want to like it, because so much of it works so well, but oh my god it's so terrible at female characters that it's actively dragging the show down. I really shouldn't be able to say that Four Murasame is the best-written and realized female character in the show, since at least when she's a confused mess who's detrimental to those around her it's in-character and makes sense.
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Jan 5, 2023 11:50
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Don't you besmirch Emma like this 1000% fair on the rest of the female cast (fa can be ok on an episode by episode basis)
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Jan 5, 2023 12:07
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But Four is the best female in Zeta and that's not a bad thing in and of itself. She's a good character. I'll always maintain she's Lalah done right. Or perhaps a better way to put it is her relationship with Kamille is done 100% better than Amuro's with Lalah. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Jan 5, 2023 |
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Jan 5, 2023 12:18
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She has a cooler design.
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Jan 5, 2023 13:40
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Reccoa at least has the excuse of being profoundly hosed in the head by her experience as a child soldier and is basically just presenting a thin veneer of civility until her frustration and Scirocco’s influence stripped even that away. You could argue she’s yet another casualty of Char being such an ignorant fuckwit that he couldn’t notice the ticking time bomb in their midst until it was too late.
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Jan 5, 2023 14:07
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Char being a complete moron aside, I feel like a lot of my "... Gee that actually sounds loving horrible when you think about it" hang ups from Gundam come from, specifically, AGE's Third Generation in Particular. Its not just the teamkilling fuckery of Kio, it's stuff like "This war is bad and I can't let the federation win over the genocidal assholes, so I'll become a pirate and needlessly prolong the war for decades and abandon my kid" and the other weird "Level 5 is trying to ape the themes and messages of Gundam but doesn't understand them or how to make them work" stuff. Edit: Actually I think my main problem is that a show will try to ape or mimic the themes and messages of Gundam, but completely gently caress it up by going "These slaving roman empire cosplayers and this moderately corrupt democracy are exactly the same, so fighting is bad." SO its not a Gundam problem, its a Macross Delta Problem, its an Aldnoah Zero Problem, its a Layzner Problem. And, yes, its a Gundam Age Problem. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jan 5, 2023 |
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Jan 5, 2023 14:49
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Anyoe who takes Edward Sallow at his word about Hegelian Dialectics is an idiot.
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Jan 5, 2023 16:20
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NikkolasKing posted:At least there's some sanity left in the world. This attitude is far too common in recent years. On this very forum you have plenty of folks are just like "lol kill 'em all!" The vey definition of keyboard warriors, only masking it behind righteousness.
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Jan 5, 2023 17:15
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Cleretic posted:I've been watching through Zeta Gundam since that's on Youtube. Mostly done at this point. Maybe don't watch Victory.
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Jan 5, 2023 18:04
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MonsterEnvy posted:Nena Trinity decided to blow up a wedding with her Gundam cause she was bored. I meant Endless Waltz 
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Jan 5, 2023 18:24
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Maybe don't watch Victory. I could have fixed all of them
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Jan 5, 2023 19:51
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:Reccoa at least has the excuse of being profoundly hosed in the head by her experience as a child soldier and is basically just presenting a thin veneer of civility until her frustration and Scirocco’s influence stripped even that away. You could argue she’s yet another casualty of Char being such an ignorant fuckwit that he couldn’t notice the ticking time bomb in their midst until it was too late. Char's lack of empathy hits him pretty hard in Zeta.
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Jan 6, 2023 00:25
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ninjewtsu posted:Don't you besmirch Emma like this Emma is a good person, but is, in my opinion, a pretty boring character. Then again, I'm the weirdo that actually likes Reccoa and thinks she's one of the most interesting characters in the show for the same reason I think a lot of people like Char in 0079; she's an absolutely broken and awful person, but the ways that she's broken and awful are interesting and line up with the themes of the show and franchise as a whole re: child soldiers and how a life of violence can break people for instance. Fivemarks posted:Char being a complete moron aside, I feel like a lot of my "... Gee that actually sounds loving horrible when you think about it" hang ups from Gundam come from, specifically, AGE's Third Generation in Particular. Its not just the teamkilling fuckery of Kio, it's stuff like "This war is bad and I can't let the federation win over the genocidal assholes, so I'll become a pirate and needlessly prolong the war for decades and abandon my kid" and the other weird "Level 5 is trying to ape the themes and messages of Gundam but doesn't understand them or how to make them work" stuff. The really frustrating thing with Kio's pacifism is that one of his peers did pull him aside and actually gave him some good advice to the tune of "look, it's fine to think that you can save everyone, but you should start with your allies and then try and help your enemies once you're sure your allies are safe" and Kio basically just told him to gently caress off and ran off to do his own thing. The show actually had a character try and give a measured, thoughtful response that could push Kio to be a better person who held some ideals but wasn't ruled by them to exclusion of reality, and just used it as a way to brush off any realism in the face of Kio's idealism. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jan 6, 2023 |
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Jan 6, 2023 00:44
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I don't think the original comment was about characters being boring
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Jan 6, 2023 00:47
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ninjewtsu posted:I don't think the original comment was about characters being boring Okay. I don't like Reccoa because she's not boring. Or at least, not just because of it. Which is why I mentioned the fact I think she serves as a good way to communicate the show's themes on the cycle of violence and how it can gently caress people up. More to the point, I don't think she's a terribly written female character. She's a terrible character/person, but I think the ways she's written are well done in order to make her come across as terrible. Which I also think she does without becoming annoying or overbearing. Which is a different thing, and good writing.
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Jan 6, 2023 00:53
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I like both Emma and Reccoa, though Reccoa is an awful person.
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Jan 6, 2023 01:05
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ninjewtsu posted:I don't think the original comment was about characters being boring In fact I'm gonna be honest: I straight up forgot about Emma because she's not a distractingly huge dumpster fire of a person. For most of the series she's like the female equivalent of someone like Apolly: just quietly fairly competent and mostly in the background. She's cool, but once her defection arc is wrapped up she's just sorta there. Reccoa was actually the one that inspired that original post, because for her it's so bad that it feels like there were cut storylines. Again, I'm watching these on Yotuube, and her defection to the Titans is so weirdly severe and unexplained that even the comments section can't get it straight why she did it. I suspect they're attributing more to Scirocco's Newtype Powers than intended, but I can't be sure yet. The Notorious ZSB posted:Maybe don't watch Victory. Don't worry, I do not intend to stand up to the Victory. I'm watching Zeta because right now it's easy to watch and people have told me it's good, and neither of those are true of Victory.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:55
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Cleretic posted:In fact I'm gonna be honest: I straight up forgot about Emma because she's not a distractingly huge dumpster fire of a person. For most of the series she's like the female equivalent of someone like Apolly: just quietly fairly competent and mostly in the background. She's cool, but once her defection arc is wrapped up she's just sorta there. I wrote up a post defending Reccoa's character a few years back, and it's easier to just link to that than to type it all up again. Assuming you have archives access (since it was in 2018). If not, I can repost it if you care to see one more person try to explain her in some depth. If you do but don't have archives, I'll try to rehost all the webms since they're all broken links at this point. In general though, I don't think her defection is unexplained, and I think there's several scenes foreshadowing it that explains it as well as pay off for it happening. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jan 6, 2023 |
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Jan 6, 2023 03:10
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Cleretic posted:In fact I'm gonna be honest: I straight up forgot about Emma because she's not a distractingly huge dumpster fire of a person. For most of the series she's like the female equivalent of someone like Apolly: just quietly fairly competent and mostly in the background. She's cool, but once her defection arc is wrapped up she's just sorta there. Victory is good.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:11
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Victory isn't bad but it is aggressively bad about women.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:16
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Cleretic posted:Don't worry, I do not intend to stand up to the Victory. I'm watching Zeta because right now it's easy to watch and people have told me it's good, and neither of those are true of Victory. Victory has better animation and is worth watching just for that
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Jan 6, 2023 03:30
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The animation glow up from Zeta to ZZ is wild. Even the comedy episode with a bunch of Capules was better directed and animated than most of Zeta.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:36
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Victory isn't good, it's great. The only reason I cannot rank it higher is that there are so many other great series in the franchise.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:58
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The victory debate was at least 15-30 pages ago, anyone can look back for it, but I'll stand by the assertion that victory is not actually good, although it has memorable moments and some strong animation.
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Jan 6, 2023 04:48
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Victory has a cool few episodes where an MS reactor popping is actually a big deal for once (they forget about it later).
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Jan 6, 2023 13:57
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tsob posted:Emma is a good person, but is, in my opinion, a pretty boring character. Then again, I'm the weirdo that actually likes Reccoa and thinks she's one of the most interesting characters in the show for the same reason I think a lot of people like Char in 0079; she's an absolutely broken and awful person, but the ways that she's broken and awful are interesting and line up with the themes of the show and franchise as a whole re: child soldiers and how a life of violence can break people for instance. He does the exact opposite, in fact, and helps his enemies kill his allies!
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Jan 6, 2023 15:05
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