Kith posted:News to me. Got sources for any of that? It's a pretty simple framework. Whatever doesn't pass is "true" progressive legislation, killed by a conspiracy of the impure. Whatever does pass is, necessarily, not progressive. In this way, nothing is ever satisfactory and any discussion of specifics can be shut down. Analogously, any legislator who passes legislation (which necessarily involves people who aren't pure) can't be truly progressive. You can probably see how the words above can be adjusted, "progressive" for "conservative" and so on, to reflect the dynamic of the Republican party. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 10:00
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Discendo Vox posted:It's a pretty simple framework. Whatever doesn't pass is "true" progressive legislation, killed by a conspiracy of the impure. Whatever does pass is, necessarily, not progressive. In this way, nothing is ever satisfactory and any discussion of specifics can be shut down. Analogously, any legislator who passes legislation (which necessarily involves people who aren't pure) can't be truly progressive. Some excellent moveable goalposts you have there. Care to name specifics?
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Jan 7, 2023 10:30
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Byzantine posted:No, turns out they were all loving liars and cowards that immediately collapsed and started killing progressive legislation and breaking strikes the instant Mama Pelosi looked at them. Something I've suspected for years now, the common advice around here and elsewhere has been that if you want to see change, you need to start from the bottom and work your way up. As we can see, everyone who works their way up that begin as leftist will eventually be brainwashed by a constant psychic barrage of contented establishment centrists until they become one of them. I feel our only hope is to strike from the top. Work on getting a leftist president in, where the process is shorter and less vulnerable to long-term centrist influence, and see if the power of the presidency can't change conditions further down.
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Jan 7, 2023 13:28
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Freakazoid_ posted:Something I've suspected for years now, the common advice around here and elsewhere has been that if you want to see change, you need to start from the bottom and work your way up. Yeah, conveniently the common wisdom we've all been taught just happens to be the method that's the easiest for the establishment to shut out and foil while claiming it's just the way things are and you need to try harder.
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Jan 7, 2023 14:30
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Freakazoid_ posted:Something I've suspected for years now, the common advice around here and elsewhere has been that if you want to see change, you need to start from the bottom and work your way up. If you are not fighting from the top, down... bottom, up... and outside, in you're going to fail Bel Shazar fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 14:47
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Byzantine posted:No, turns out they were all loving liars and cowards that immediately collapsed and started killing progressive legislation and breaking strikes the instant Mama Pelosi looked at them. What progressive legislation has the squad been killing? And should I not vote for that “loving liar and coward” Omar next year?
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Jan 7, 2023 15:41
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I assume they’re asking about the railroad union package.
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Jan 7, 2023 16:04
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Kith posted:News to me. Got sources for any of that? They agreed to split BBB from the Infrastructure Bill so BBB could be killed in the Senate back in 2021, then likewise split the progressive parts off the railroad bill so the Senate could kill it and then voted to break the strike anyway.
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Jan 7, 2023 16:37
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House didn't even start and this fucker continues to get worse somehow https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1611435393291014144?t=cA2rHGkb1NpHuKHw4yAwAQ&s=19
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Jan 7, 2023 17:03
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Byzantine posted:They agreed to split BBB from the Infrastructure Bill so BBB could be killed in the Senate back in 2021, then likewise split the progressive parts off the railroad bill so the Senate could kill it and then voted to break the strike anyway. Yeah in my view the progressive wing of the house has zero credibility since their primary negotiating tactic seems to be "give moderates everything that they want"
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Jan 7, 2023 17:06
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Robviously posted:House didn't even start and this fucker continues to get worse somehow This Arnold Toht-looking motherfucker.
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Jan 7, 2023 17:08
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Dubar posted:Yeah in my view the progressive wing of the house has zero credibility since their primary negotiating tactic seems to be "give moderates everything that they want" Ah, Vice President Joe Biden's famed negotiating tactic with Republicans. It's funny how moderates suddenly become supporters of the Squad the moment leftists begin to criticise them. Though it's a recurring pattern that moderates seem to consider it their privilege to define what left-wingers are supposed to believe and support, and then mock and berate them for not meeting the standards invented and imposed on them. Similar to how right-wingers define what liberals supposedly believe and support with no regard to reality.
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Jan 7, 2023 17:24
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Robviously posted:House didn't even start and this fucker continues to get worse somehow I thought this was also the hand signal for rear end in a top hat in Brazil
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Jan 7, 2023 17:24
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Freakazoid_ posted:Something I've suspected for years now, the common advice around here and elsewhere has been that if you want to see change, you need to start from the bottom and work your way up. You can't elect a president without gaining political influence at all the levels. And the left seems incapable of gaining it at any of them.
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Jan 7, 2023 17:27
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Byzantine posted:They agreed to split BBB from the Infrastructure Bill so BBB could be killed in the Senate back in 2021, then likewise split the progressive parts off the railroad bill so the Senate could kill it and then voted to break the strike anyway. That's not the squad killing legislation.... that's them voting for something that had 0% of passing otherwise....
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Jan 7, 2023 17:32
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Kalit posted:That's not the squad killing legislation.... that's them voting for something that had 0% of passing otherwise.... Also The Squad, unlike the entirety of he Republican Party, actually wants government to function. Unfortunately that means you are not going to win 100% of the time. Honestly this constant whining about "liars" and "psychic brainwashing" or whatever every time a progressive fails to burn down the government is really embarrassing.
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Jan 7, 2023 17:36
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Nix Panicus posted:The conservative project has achieved victory on all fronts so total that the largest 'progressive' victory of the last twenty years was a lovely hand out to private insurance spearheaded by a crypto conservative who also tried to cut social security while letting his banker buddies off the hook for the colossal economic collapse they initiated. Complaining that their strategy wasn't particularly clever seems like a non sequitur. It also begs the question of why couldn't democrats stay laser focused on a grand project over decades and achieve success by increments? Perhaps they did, and the entrenchment of corporate power is the fruit of the New Democrat's efforts since the 90s. What are you saying was the "largest 'progressive' victory"? At first, it seems like you're saying it's Obamacare, but then you immediately add in a bunch of unrelated complaints about Obama, so are you trying to say that the "largest 'progressive' victory" was electing Obama? I don't think there's anyone in this thread who'd agree with that. And that's without even getting into your extremely minimalistic descriptions of some very large and complex bills with a number of different measures. You spend half this post complaining that progressives haven't been making incremental progress toward anything, and the other half of it complaining that Obamacare didn't immediately abolish private insurance on the spot. I'm certainly no lover of Obamacare, but it's a prime example of a incremental step in a long-term push toward a larger policy project. Which in turn exposes one of the serious issues with these long-term policy projects - they take a really, really long time! I guess it doesn't necessarily sink in when we just say "over the course of 50 years", so let's put it this way: someone who was 21 years old when Roe v Wade was decided would have been 70 years old when Roe was overturned. There's people out there who spent their entire working life - and a few years of their retirement - voting for politicians who said they were going to overturn Roe and then being pissed off when Roe still hasn't been overturned. But honestly, I'm not a fan of talking about individual policy goals as "projects". You know what the big conservative project was, the one that made all these other policy pushes of theirs possible? Figuring out how to win more elections. Figuring out how to build the base and then mobilize it. All of these policy gains of theirs only came about because they were able to win solid control of various levels and branches of government. And note that when I say "they", I don't just mean "Republicans", I mean "conservatives". One of the anti-McCarthy faction's demands, after all, was that he stop funding primary challengers against far-right candidates- and despite the fact that he'd been putting the party's thumb on the scale against them in elections, the anti-McCarthy faction was more than three times as big as the Squad is. Freakazoid_ posted:Something I've suspected for years now, the common advice around here and elsewhere has been that if you want to see change, you need to start from the bottom and work your way up. The bottom isn't the House, state politics, or even local politics. The bottom is the electorate. If the movement doesn't have wide and strong public support among the voters, then it's only natural that it's not going to have many diehard loyalists in national politics.
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Jan 7, 2023 17:38
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I admit I too use the words, but these labels and identifiers (right left lib progressive) hold less and less value imo, and help set us apart. The question is whether you think things will meaningfully improve without a frankly radical change. Even major chaotic events see the rich bailed out or become even wealthier, the masses get only the concessions necessary to keep the flow of profit predictable. This is openly the point of our system. Consider that corporations are people, and money free speech, and a big stack of cash can vote much harder than me. Also the public is largely apathetic, uninformed/misinformed, and easily set against one another. A captured system, a game already won. I think things could change with a massive sustained and frankly destructive movement of a critical mass of people, but that doesn't seem likely at all given most people who bother to even give a poo poo are funneled into one of two parties of capital in our precious amazing democracy. So when you say I'm dreaming for wanting more significant "progressive" change within the system, I think we're in agreement. Why would the system ever change for the better under present or predicted conditions (unless "the better" is short term profits). BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 17:54
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Like idk, the Democratic Party seems to be the most progressive its ever been and actually got stuff done that was unthinkable even under Obama, I can't interpret what my eyes are seeing any other way.
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Jan 7, 2023 17:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:Like idk, the Democratic Party seems to be the most progressive its ever been and actually got stuff done that was unthinkable even under Obama, I can't interpret what my eyes are seeing any other way. Yeah the expanded 8 person leadership team in the house has exactly one white dude at the very bottom, the dems openly say that abortion is good instead of “safe, legal, and rare” or waffling on it like during the Clinton years, Biden who was easily the most conservative moderate and pro-corporate of the candidates during the primaries is pushing out bans on non-compete agreements and blocking mergers. The dem party is probably the most left wing it’s been since the 70s on economic issues and is the most progressive ever on social issues. It’s just that as the dem establishment moves left they get compared to the guys further on the fringes and people wonder why the fringes aren’t at the center. And then the fringe becomes the center and there’s a new fringe and now people say why isn’t the fringe at the center?
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Jan 7, 2023 18:04
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There's no reason that the left could not thrive under the current system, utilizing the same means that the other factions do to claw more control, at all political levels. Local party-tied aid and participation vehicles to spread messages, patronage networks, dirty political deals, populist hatemongering, cultural war fear mongering, character attacks, and so on. No reason of course other than pointless moral hangups. Waiting for a positively oriented mass movement to magically spring from awful conditions or somehow capturing the spirit of a nation at the highest level is sort of pointless. Either you master the present system to change it or you tear it down and neither has ever been achieved by nice people coming together spontaneously.
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Jan 7, 2023 18:15
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99% of people I know who aren't rich hate the America Healthcare system, across the political spectrum. Even the wealthy acknowledge how inaccessible and unjust it is (but "these things take time" and "well there was the ACA!"). And yet middlemen still squeeze maximum profits out of people just trying to get some medical aid while keeping their coin and their dignity. I know of a crazy old right winger who was actually significantly helped by the ACA, he still rails against democrats and Obama (just an anecdote, but do you think it's uncommon?) A member of our electorate expected to vote logically for his interests. Expecting Americans to be politcially reasonable or coherent seems akin to economists expecting such of consumers. The way I see things working in this country, a "foot in the door" policy is really a "placating half measure", and will likely result both in lessened demand for more from the bottom up, and something legislators can wave at in lieu of difficult serious disruptive change. When the "correct" act is difficult legislatively, the electorate incoherent, and capital unduly represented, how and why would our leaders actually deliver something significant? Concessions must be made at the tip of a sword to the throat of stability, to the throat of the market. And I fear what we'll do (all too convienantly for the status quo) is turn on each other every time. If we continue this, I am horrified to imagine the inhumanity and desperation that will occur once the toll of our long unsustainable way of life comes due. DarkCrawler posted:Either you master the present system to change it or you tear it down and neither has ever been achieved by nice people coming together spontaneously. And I thought we'd never agree! BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jan 7, 2023 |
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Jan 7, 2023 18:18
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DarkCrawler posted:you tear it down and neither has ever been achieved by nice people coming together spontaneously.
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Jan 7, 2023 18:24
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I think it's as simple as the Democrats are a center-left party and people want them to move more left and would like to see healthy inter-party conflict to move them there.They can both be "the most progressive they've ever been" and not very left when put on the world stage of politics.
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Jan 7, 2023 18:26
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:I thought this was also the hand signal for rear end in a top hat in Brazil Turns out its the signal for rear end in a top hat everywhere
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Jan 7, 2023 18:54
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Robviously posted:House didn't even start and this fucker continues to get worse somehow This person also started the Andrew Tate/Pizza box thing which was a complete fabrication. I wouldn’t read too much into this.
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Jan 7, 2023 19:01
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FCKGW posted:This person also started the Andrew Tate/Pizza box thing which was a complete fabrication. I wouldn’t read too much into this.  yeah, taser balls is fake and the piss tape isn't real either.
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Jan 7, 2023 19:06
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Oxyclean posted:
Taser Balls 100% happened and anyone who says it didn't is either a friend of the guy or suffering from  poisoning.
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Jan 7, 2023 19:11
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Realtalk: What is there to read into? He's making the "ok" gesture in a very particular and "suspicious" way. Every time this seems to come up, it's pointed out that it's supposed to be innocuous in a way that makes it feel silly to point out. Maybe it's bullshit, but it's not like he's going to say "yes I made the gesture for white power reasons."
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Jan 7, 2023 19:16
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Oxyclean posted:Realtalk: What is there to read into? He's making the "ok" gesture in a very particular and "suspicious" way. Every time this seems to come up, it's pointed out that it's supposed to be innocuous in a way that makes it feel silly to point out. Maybe it's bullshit, but it's not like he's going to say "yes I made the gesture for white power reasons." the other (more reasonable) explanation is that the 'ok' sign also has a different connotation in brazil
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Jan 7, 2023 19:26
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Angry_Ed posted:Also The Squad, unlike the entirety of he Republican Party, actually wants government to function. Unfortunately that means you are not going to win 100% of the time. It'd be nice to win 1% of the time instead of watching our supposed side cry crocodile tears as they give more money to Israel for killing Palestinians.
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Jan 7, 2023 19:28
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Upgrade posted:the other (more reasonable) explanation is that the 'ok' sign also has a different connotation in brazil The "ok" sign in Brazil is "gently caress you". It has a totally different meaning in scuba diving too. I'll bet my life savings that Rep. Santos' use of it simultaneously means "gently caress you" and "I'm a nazi lol".
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Jan 7, 2023 19:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The "ok" sign in Brazil is "gently caress you". It has a totally different meaning in scuba diving too. I'll bet my life savings that Rep. Santos' use of it simultaneously means "gently caress you" and "I'm a nazi lol". But what does it mean in Yiddish?
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Jan 7, 2023 19:49
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Robviously posted:House didn't even start and this fucker continues to get worse somehow Man, I miss the days where if you did that you were just doing the "made you look" game so you could freely punch whoever noticed you doing it instead of this "I'm a not-so-secret white supremacist" poo poo.
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Jan 7, 2023 20:21
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redbrouw posted:But what does it mean in Yiddish? I think you mean Yidd-ish.
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Jan 7, 2023 20:30
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nine-gear crow posted:Man, I miss the days where if you did that you were just doing the "made you look" game so you could freely punch whoever noticed you doing it instead of this "I'm a not-so-secret white supremacist" poo poo. We called the game "rear end in a top hat" and boy does that moniker fit the shitstains that have taken over the gesture and hell yea I'll punch those fuckers
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Jan 7, 2023 20:31
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nine-gear crow posted:Man, I miss the days where if you did that you were just doing the "made you look" game so you could freely punch whoever noticed you doing it instead of this "I'm a not-so-secret white supremacist" poo poo. I believe it would also need to be below the waist which Santos isn't doing.
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Jan 7, 2023 23:14
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The "ok" sign in Brazil is "gently caress you". It has a totally different meaning in scuba diving too. I'll bet my life savings that Rep. Santos' use of it simultaneously means "gently caress you" and "I'm a nazi lol". i have questions about your custom title
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Jan 7, 2023 23:50
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Upgrade posted:i have questions about your custom title I don't know EAH from Adam but that doesn't seem very D&D, as rich as that is coming from me. If you're just, uh, joshin around forgive me.
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Jan 8, 2023 00:42
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Upgrade posted:i have questions about your custom title (as borat voice as possible) MY WIFE is not in favour of Putin or the war. And she immigrated from Kazakhstan to the US before we met. We raise money and supplies for Ukraine on the regular. The rest is true but it's really hard to not be an attention whoring sack of poo poo when people keep mentioning this title. Somebody buy me a dumb uspol carpetbomb avatar, it'll happen sooner or later, i know it will.
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Jan 8, 2023 02:46
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