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On the other hand Laine will be 25 in April and I still have no idea if he's actually good or not.
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Jan 11, 2023 15:46
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You are. Provorov is a solid top pairing defenseman and when the Flyers eventually trade him the team that gets him will be very happy.
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Jan 11, 2023 15:48
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I do think Provorov is very good, but I think I'd rather have Laine 9 times out of 10.
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Jan 11, 2023 15:51
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https://twitter.com/ThomasDrance/status/1613079945085063169?s=20&t=UDR2SsVxr7oRT4991LX0-Q https://twitter.com/ThomasDrance/status/1613080161871876098?s=20&t=UDR2SsVxr7oRT4991LX0-Q Those stats feel about right. That was a shockingly bad defensive effort by the Canucks last night.
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Jan 11, 2023 15:53
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Laine is a bust and fraud as hell so lol at you.
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Jan 11, 2023 15:53
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Ginette Reno posted:
I love when fans of other teams watch the Canucks and see them put up a pretty standard performance and go "oh my god I see why you guys are complaining now." That was not in the least bit unusual. I do not think that "horrendous" really captures just how dire they are defensively.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:01
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ThinkTank posted:I love when fans of other teams watch the Canucks and see them put up a pretty standard performance and go "oh my god I see why you guys are complaining now." That was not in the least bit unusual. I do not think that "horrendous" really captures just how dire they are defensively. I've watched them a few times this year as I usually have a game on at night even if the Pens aren't on but oof. They were so bad yesterday. My condolences. I'd like to say it was because of the Pens but the Canucks made so many unforced errors defensively yesterday
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Jan 11, 2023 16:05
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fawning deference posted:Didn't UMich's coach say he would bet the farm on Luke joining the Devils at the end of the college season? Yeah I think he'll absolutely be on the roster and arguably the first guy in depending on injuries/deadline pickups and how Bahl/Okhotyuk/perhaps Nemec are playing. The issue with putting Luke with Graves, is Graves/Marino is their shutdown pair, and that would also create a pairing with two righties (Severson/Marino). So if he somehow got in and everyone was healthy you'd pretty much have to play him with Marino if you wanted balanced LHS/RHS pairs so: Siegenthaler-Hamilton Graves-Severson Hughes-Marino
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Jan 11, 2023 16:22
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rex rabidorum vires posted:Laine is a bust and fraud as hell so lol at you. You think the guy with the 2nd most goals and 3rd most points from his draft class is a bust?
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Jan 11, 2023 16:23
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Laine is abysmal defensively and doesn't score 5v5. I think he's fine as like your 3rd/4th best forward but if you're relying on him to drive your team, you're in trouble. e: Actually maybe that's a bit too much of a hot take, he was a lot better production wise 5v5 last year (and even in limited games this season). I would still maintain that you really want a play driving center to properly utilize him. T-Bone fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 16:26
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If I redrafted 2016 I'd probably pick Laine in the 10-15 range. So yeah he's not 2nd overall good, but he's not a bust by any stretch of the imagination. If I redid 2015 I'd probably pick Provorov in the 10-15 range as well. Basically I've come around and think it would've been a fair trade and that it's not as funny that Philly said no. But saying no at a time when Laine was coming off of multiple 30+ goal seasons is still kind of funny to me.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:31
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Laine on Philly with that forward group would be even more tragic than Laine with Columbus's center core. At least they've got Gaudreau now and some intriguing prospects up front. I'm a bit sentimental for that 2017-2018 Jets team. They had Laine in the perfect protected situation for him, Buff still crushing people: uptempo brutal physical hockey with the capability to make pretty plays when they bulldozed their way back to possession. And then Hellebuyck in net, it really seemed like they were heading towards contention. Too bad their leadership group was a bunch of assholes apparently T-Bone fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 16:33
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Ginette Reno posted:I've watched them a few times this year as I usually have a game on at night even if the Pens aren't on but oof. They were so bad yesterday. My condolences. The Canucks have allowed 5 or more goals in 19 of 40 games so far this year.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:33
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Jamwad Hilder posted:If I redrafted 2016 I'd probably pick Laine in the 10-15 range. So yeah he's not 2nd overall good, but he's not a bust by any stretch of the imagination. This got me to flip through the 2016 draft again and it's not very good. He's probably still top 5 on a redraft. Like, you've got Matthews, Fox and Tkachuk above the rest. Then you've got a second tier with, like, McAvoy, Sergachyev, deBrincat and Laine. Maybe I'm missing some more people who have played fewer games or are scattered through the later rounds, but it's a whole hell of a lot weaker than 2015.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:40
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Hand Knit posted:This got me to flip through the 2016 draft again and it's not very good. He's probably still top 5 on a redraft. Like, you've got Matthews, Fox and Tkachuk above the rest. Then you've got a second tier with, like, McAvoy, Sergachyev, deBrincat and Laine. Maybe I'm missing some more people who have played fewer games or are scattered through the later rounds, but it's a whole hell of a lot weaker than 2015. In a redraft of 2016 with everything I know now I'd for sure take the following ahead of Laine (in no particular order) : Matthews, Tkachuk, DeBrincat, Sergachev, Bratt, McAvoy, Tage, and Fox. There are more guys I'd consider too like Dubois, Kyrou, Keller, Chychrun, and Girard, but I think Laine is in the same tier as them.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:44
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Jamwad Hilder posted:You think the guy with the 2nd most goals and 3rd most points from his draft class is a bust? I think the guy that was drafted 2nd overall as a player you can build your entire franchise around is a bust yes. The only bigger bust at #2 in recent memory is Nolan Patrick.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:56
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rex rabidorum vires posted:I think the guy that was drafted 2nd overall as a player you can build your entire franchise around is a bust yes. The only bigger bust at #2 in recent memory is Nolan Patrick. I don't agree. You might hope you can build a franchise around him and it doesn't work out that way, but that doesn't mean he's a bust. Nolan Patrick is a bust, Yakupov was a bust, a guy who scored 110 goals in his first three seasons is not a bust, even if he ultimately didn't turn out into the franchise star you were hoping.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:59
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Laine is a really really good power play specialist but he does nothing else. I don't know how much he complains and/or sulks if you only play him five even strength minutes a night but that's the optimal usage and if you have to play him 12-13 even strength minutes a night then you'll lose a lot of the value he gives you on the PP.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:00
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Kakko is worse than Laine, but better than Patrick. Maybe.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:02
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Aphrodite posted:Kakko is worse than Laine, but better than Patrick. Maybe. Isn't Kakko good at like everything but scoring. He's bizarro Laine
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Jan 11, 2023 17:05
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https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1613204717512888320?s=46&t=Tm8i73znDXE9Es2_Q-O-9A Auston Matthews is never going to play a healthy season for the rest of his career
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Jan 11, 2023 17:11
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rex rabidorum vires posted:I think the guy that was drafted 2nd overall as a player you can build your entire franchise around is a bust yes. The only bigger bust at #2 in recent memory is Nolan Patrick. If we're calling Laine a bust than the term has no meaning
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Jan 11, 2023 17:11
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Koopa Kid posted:https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1613204717512888320?s=46&t=Tm8i73znDXE9Es2_Q-O-9A Fifty injuries in his last fifty games!
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Jan 11, 2023 17:15
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I know a guy who was a Jets and Laine fan to an embarrassing degree (like constantly petitioning them on Twitter to become an unofficial mascot with his Jets themed Master Chief helmet) who lost his absolute poo poo when they traded him and switched his allegiance to Columbus. He doesn’t talk to anyone any more lmao
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Jan 11, 2023 17:15
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Koopa Kid posted:https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1613204717512888320?s=46&t=Tm8i73znDXE9Es2_Q-O-9A At this point I assume it's that same drat wrist that's been bothering him for years and it will never heal.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:29
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Laine always scores like 5 points when he plays the Stars so obviously he's the greatest player of all time
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Jan 11, 2023 17:37
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Eric the Mauve posted:At this point I assume it's that same drat wrist that's been bothering him for years and it will never heal. It definitely was at the start of the year, when Auston freaking Matthews of all people is passing off shooting opportunities and only taking off-side one-timers on the powerplay for a month it’s not hard to compare to the two previous times his wrist has been hosed up and he started doing the exact same thing. Weirdly he seemed to be snapping off his shots a little bit better lately but nagging injuries gonna nag I guess
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Jan 11, 2023 17:38
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Ginette Reno posted:Isn't Kakko good at like everything but scoring. He's bizarro Laine Kakko seems like a really talented grinder. He's got the hands, he's got the size, sometimes it seems like he has the feet, but he's missing something to put it all together Could be that he's forced to play an ancillary role on his lines (could also be that's the limit of his skillset, but I don't know). He doesn't seem to carry or distribute the puck, he's there to crash the net or get open for a nice shot.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:45
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I would say their should be concerns about Kakko's development and lack of scoring. Ryan Murray has had 100 million injuries has he not? I would agree he also didn't reach his draft pedigree. Byfield is played 12 minutes a night with Arian Kempe and Gabriel Vilardi. I'm sure we'll be having the same conversation about Shane Wright very soon. The thing with with Laine is that he has never pushed on and shown growth/improvement since his first 2 years in the league. He's the same limited player he's always been. He's about to hit 25 and he's making 8.7 per to have 4 points on the powerplay this year. For a supposed elite powerplay player that's pedestrian at best. Like Laine is/was billed as an elite level goal scorer and uh his team 30th in the league for goals scored. Laine had his best season since the sophomore one last year and hey his team was 14th.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:48
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Averaging 35 goals/82 games doesn't seem like a bust to me regardless of the rest. Laine definitely has issues but if he's a bust then anyone that isn't a HOF level player at 1-2 is a bust which is nonsense.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:01
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Yeah but Laine is pushing us to the boundaries of knowledge and beyond on how little value you can provide a hockey team while scoring 35 goals. He helps his team a lot less than "35 goals" suggests to your brain.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:05
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The Laine disappointment makes a lot more sense when you go back and read the draft profiles comparing him to Ovie, a huge, snarly goalscorer but he's a gentle moose man who just wants to score some goals Like... a more talented Johan Franzen or something e: or really, Phil Kessel he's a giant Phil Kessel
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Jan 11, 2023 18:07
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He's at 49.2% GF at 5v5 for his career, and its that low mostly due to the horror show that is 20-21 for him. He's basically breakeven the last two years in Columbus and was 52% in WPG. On the PP in WPG he was a monster, the Blue Jackets just have an atrocious PP and I don't think you can blame that on Laine. Again, he has a lot of issues, but he's not a bust that's absolute nonsense.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:12
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Only 29 players scored 35 or more goals last year. Laine wasn't one of them, but he had 26 in 56, which is on pace for 38. Scoring that often is an elite skill. It seems silly to me to suggest a goal scorer of that caliber is a bust or not that useful to any team.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:16
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:The Laine disappointment makes a lot more sense when you go back and read the draft profiles comparing him to Ovie, a huge, snarly goalscorer Really insulting to Kessel, he was a pretty good defensive forward despite never making contact with any player if it could at all be avoided. He was great on the forecheck with the Pens. Laine doesn't do any of that and doesn't even put the effort into cherrypicking that Ovi did when he was young. e: of course he's useful, but he's useful on a middle-six level not a top line level. Actually his ideal deployment is PP1 and ES4, a role which many teams used a decade ago (the Pens used to rotate a huge cast of near-the-end scoring wingers through that role back in the day) but almost no one does now. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 18:17
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:Averaging 35 goals/82 games doesn't seem like a bust to me regardless of the rest. Laine definitely has issues but if he's a bust then anyone that isn't a HOF level player at 1-2 is a bust which is nonsense. Scoring 35 or more is a feat that Laine has only done twice in oh his first two years. The theoretical rate of his potential scoring in year 5 of disappointment post those first 2 years doesn't count for much when the player doesn't actually do the thing you play him for. All the while at 5v5 Laine has been on the ice for 13 more goals against than for. Even for 2 of the 3 years that Laine has been in Columbus, when you include his powerplay contributions, he's a net negative.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:18
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the Provorov situation and value around the league will be interesting since there are light rumblings that it may be time to explore a trade. Friedman floated it on 32 Thoughts and the Athletic put together a good article about the whole situation (https://theathletic.com/4077511/2023/01/10/flyers-trade-ivan-provorov/). is the guy dogshit garbage now or will he be better getting away from the dogshit garbage Flyers?
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Jan 11, 2023 18:26
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Trade Provorov for Chychrun and watch as they both get worse.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:51
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Based on the science of ranking them on how good I think they are, I have reached the following conclusions about 2nd overall picks since 2005. 3 have been franchise players: Victor Hedman Alex Barkov Jack Eichel 5 have been stars (or will be) but not quite franchise players: Drew Doughty Tyler Seguin Gabriel Landeskog Andrei Svechnikov Matty Beniers 4 have been decent players: Bobby Ryan Jordan Staal JVR Sam Reinhart 3 have been depth players (or will be): Ryan Murray Nolan Patrick Quinton Byfield 2 are unknowable mysteries: Patrik Laine Kappo Kakko So with the 2nd overall pick you have a 19% chance of getting a franchise player, a 50% chance of getting a star or better player and a 13% chance of winding up with a tall Finnish dude who's actual talent level cannot quite be comprehended by the human mind.
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Jan 11, 2023 19:03
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Provorov is very good, young, and durable and has taken on a ton of minutes on the Dogshit Flyers, so Philly could probably get a decent return with the right package. However, this is Chuck Fletcher, so the team will likely get a few fourth liners and no draft picks or some ridiculous poo poo because we need to sign Ristolainen to an 8 year multimillion contract or whatever is going on in his hosed up brain
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Jan 11, 2023 19:19
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