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Dirk the Average posted:Yeah, they need to allow us to shift-alt click or ctrl-alt click. You can right click your general in the outliner and directly select attack or defend.
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Jan 19, 2023 17:26
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As long as we don't go back to the dark days of capitalists building yet another clipper factory...
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Jan 19, 2023 17:32
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Staltran posted:So what did you mean? I can't tell either. sure, i'm basically saying the way construction works as you hit 200, 500, 1k, 2k, etc. construction points is fundamentally at odds with the current design of the game. it's pretty clear end-game economic numbers weren't really designed for or scaled well for. the investment pool and handing some of it to the AI isn't really a solution, it's a band-aid. i haven't read the dev diary yet so maybe this is premature pessimism, i'll take a look in a bit.
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Jan 19, 2023 17:39
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Hellioning posted:As long as we don't go back to the dark days of capitalists building yet another clipper factory... I think that's what people are unironically cheering for.
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Jan 19, 2023 17:55
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Lady Radia posted:sure, i'm basically saying the way construction works as you hit 200, 500, 1k, 2k, etc. construction points is fundamentally at odds with the current design of the game. it's pretty clear end-game economic numbers weren't really designed for or scaled well for. the investment pool and handing some of it to the AI isn't really a solution, it's a band-aid. The AI can't make construction industries itself and also takes some of your construction capacity away to build its own stuff, so it should impact your ability to ride the construction train into space even if the patch doesn't make any more meaningful systemic changes The construction system has issues but if the ability to spam construction industry is sufficiently curtailed then it simply won't be possible for the player to get into a super-degenerate state as you could previously. TwoQuestions posted:I think that's what people are unironically cheering for. Investment Pool actors will only build stuff which makes money and employs pops of the same type (i.e. aristos will build plantations, capitalists builds factories) so unless it's just fundamentally broken this won't happen Unlike in V2 you don't need to rely on the AI to build your entire economy so the issues with LF and AI-driven construction in general are lessened
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Jan 19, 2023 17:58
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I'm not sure if there's anything wrong with the construction numbers per se, I just know that the interface is horrible for allocating 5000 construction points. It should be great ordering such a titanic engine of industry around and it just isn't.
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Jan 19, 2023 18:01
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clipper factroys incoming
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Jan 19, 2023 18:06
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Gort posted:I'm not sure if there's anything wrong with the construction numbers per se, I just know that the interface is horrible for allocating 5000 construction points. It should be great ordering such a titanic engine of industry around and it just isn't. yeah it's more the game was clearly not designed with that sort of construction happening in mind. RabidWeasel posted:The AI can't make construction industries itself and also takes some of your construction capacity away to build its own stuff, so it should impact your ability to ride the construction train into space even if the patch doesn't make any more meaningful systemic changes
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Jan 19, 2023 18:10
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Lady Radia posted:sure, i'm basically saying the way construction works as you hit 200, 500, 1k, 2k, etc. construction points is fundamentally at odds with the current design of the game. it's pretty clear end-game economic numbers weren't really designed for or scaled well for. the investment pool and handing some of it to the AI isn't really a solution, it's a band-aid. You can ctrl-click and queue up more stuff than you could build in a decade in a few seconds. Astronomical construction points can work just fine in the game already if you know exactly what you want to build. The horrible frustrating issue in my experience is if you want to move things around, and alt-ctrl would deal with the worst of that, though I'd like a lot more ability to move chunks around in the queue more easily. Is that the kind of thing you think is a "fundamental" problem?
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Jan 19, 2023 18:56
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Wiz just confirmed that they fixed the GDP bug in 1.2 which is pretty nice (the GDP calculation currently doesn't deduct the input value of goods meaning that it massively overvalues industrial production)
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Jan 19, 2023 19:58
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im not really worried about the ai building unprofitable buildings because it's honestly really hard to build unprofitable buildings lol what are they gonna do, overproduce on clothes, the good that has functionally infinite demand so long as you can trade? also don't see the issue with automation so long as its something the player can notably influence. Some tasks are fun at the start and tedious as go on. Hitting the infinite construction stage and crash enclosing all the farms in a province is fun the first time you do it but after a bit I mostly want to focus on fancier goods rather than alt clicking farms to be front of the cue 50 times
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Jan 19, 2023 20:15
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Mmmm, I wish Interventionism, Laissez Faire and Distrbutionism/Agraganarism had different investment logics. (Solve supply issues, most profitable, and Pop needs respectively) But This is an improvement. It's also an improvement if you aren't automating the investment pool.
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Jan 19, 2023 20:37
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Eiba posted:What do you mean "fundamentally" at odds? no, it’s actually really tough to queue more stuff than you could build in a decade by 1880 or so. like it will take minutes. but that’s not exactly the problem: if you’re being thoughtful about it, you also need to go back and forth with builds, ensure timings are correct on buildings coming online so supply/demand don’t get too wonky, then you run out of resource locations in a province so have to adjust, and by 1890 at the latest chances are you’re actually out of resource buildings to build, even if you adequately imperialized. so now you need to go imperialize some more, and eventually just.. it takes maybe a year? at most? to completely fill arable land/resources for a given state. take multiple states per war. rinse. repeat. that’s a fundamental issue. it is at odds with the stated design of tending your own garden, and building an economy that achieves your goals, in conflict with either established polities, your own interest groups, etc.
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Jan 19, 2023 21:23
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Hellioning posted:As long as we don't go back to the dark days of capitalists building yet another clipper factory... Do you want the capitalists to suffer or not?
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Jan 19, 2023 21:42
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I’ve never liked the clipper factories argument against automation, because presumably that same AI is running every other country. Shouldn’t players being able to easily out-micromanage the AI be something that’s mitigated, not encouraged? Like, that was half the point of the automated warfare system. Otherwise you lose a good bit of the pretense of this being a grand strategy game rather than a player-centric solo factory builder.
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Jan 19, 2023 21:58
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Dayton Sports Bar posted:I’ve never liked the clipper factories argument against automation, because presumably that same AI is running every other country. Shouldn’t players being able to easily out-micromanage the AI be something that’s mitigated, not encouraged? Like, that was half the point of the automated warfare system. Otherwise you lose a good bit of the pretense of this being a grand strategy game rather than a player-centric solo factory builder. the problem here is the AI, right, not the system itself.
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Jan 19, 2023 22:20
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Hellioning posted:As long as we don't go back to the dark days of capitalists building yet another clipper factory... Essentially speaking, everybody is a command economy (and I think that's great for the purposes of gameplay). I feel, however, that instead of just an investment pool towards construction and expansion of industries, capitalists and aristocrats could buy goods from that pool not just for construction if trading and economic organization forms allow for it Of course, that sort of model would be far better with a pseudo global market going on, because when I imagine doing private chartering of goods and having to check every single available market around the world to source the most profitable purchase of inputs I just imagine the cpu surrendering after five mins Edit: also this reminds me when fooling around as Lanfang if there's any way to get Qing to build some coal and iron mines. The AI does seem to respond to foreign demand by the player in some way (especially if its exporting) but in that case nothing happens at all dead gay comedy forums fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 22:36
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Lady Radia posted:no, it’s actually really tough to queue more stuff than you could build in a decade by 1880 or so. like it will take minutes. but that’s not exactly the problem: The victoria series as a whole has an issue of hilariously limited raw resources. Resources and population can be regional concerns, but not the main limiters. It's capitalism, money makes more money. It is just way more noticeable in the game that doubled down on what makes victoria unique. It is most definitely a huge problem, and even more than that lag makes me crap out the late game.
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Jan 19, 2023 22:52
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Edit: also this reminds me when fooling around as Lanfang if there's any way to get Qing to build some coal and iron mines. The AI does seem to respond to foreign demand by the player in some way (especially if its exporting) but in that case nothing happens at all I've been doing a Lanfang game as well and the general feeling I've been getting is that if you kickstart a resource in the market the AI will suddenly realise it exists. Like there was no coal in the Qing market until I built some mines, then demand shot up as the AI started using it, so it started building it's own mines to provide for the demand.
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Jan 19, 2023 23:04
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ro5s posted:I've been doing a Lanfang game as well and the general feeling I've been getting is that if you kickstart a resource in the market the AI will suddenly realise it exists. Like there was no coal in the Qing market until I built some mines, then demand shot up as the AI started using it, so it started building it's own mines to provide for the demand. Huh, that makes some sense. Swapping to a production method with no access to the good it uses is more expensive than staying in the existing production method, so the AI won't switch. Building an industry with no demand because no production method uses its output is not profitable either. So you end up with a situation where the AI has no method of transitioning into the new good unless it can acquire a source of that good elsewhere, start swapping production methods or building a new building, and then build its own raw resource extractors to capitalize on that. I wonder if that's where a lot of the lack of building rubber/oil comes from. It has to run a bit deeper than that though, because puppets don't exploit those resources even when their overlord has an incredibly high demand for them and the profits are through the roof.
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Jan 19, 2023 23:13
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Dayton Sports Bar posted:I’ve never liked the clipper factories argument against automation, because presumably that same AI is running every other country. Shouldn’t players being able to easily out-micromanage the AI be something that’s mitigated, not encouraged? Like, that was half the point of the automated warfare system. Otherwise you lose a good bit of the pretense of this being a grand strategy game rather than a player-centric solo factory builder. It's also not relevant anymore because factories in V3 don't go obsolete like they do in V2.
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Jan 19, 2023 23:43
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TwoQuestions posted:https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1616088340100431872 i wonder what stops you from obliterating the aristocracy by mutual fund takeover or if there's an answer to that later on
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Jan 20, 2023 03:44
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ro5s posted:I've been doing a Lanfang game as well and the general feeling I've been getting is that if you kickstart a resource in the market the AI will suddenly realise it exists. Like there was no coal in the Qing market until I built some mines, then demand shot up as the AI started using it, so it started building it's own mines to provide for the demand.
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Jan 20, 2023 04:24
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That said, I've realized that the AI in minor powers tends to never build out enough construction sectors to actually build things, even with Anbleed's AI mod. In one of my modded campaigns, GB has expanded their economy quite a bit, but British Raj still has only 40 construction points by 1875 and is not building the dye plantations the british market desperately needs.
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Jan 20, 2023 04:56
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as much as i like these new changes, and respect wiz and the team for doing something new and interesting, Vicky 3 won't ever be a great game if they don't fundamentally improve the AI. imho, they're really only treating symptoms without actually treating the underlying disease.
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Jan 20, 2023 13:33
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oscarthewilde posted:as much as i like these new changes, and respect wiz and the team for doing something new and interesting, Vicky 3 won't ever be a great game if they don't fundamentally improve the AI. imho, they're really only treating symptoms without actually treating the underlying disease. I'm hopeful for the AI. If some dude can layer a script over the existing game and make the AI much better (though at horrible performance cost), imagine what developers with access to the entire codebase will be able to achieve. But yeah, I reckon all the game needs to for me to consider it good is an AI as good as Anbeeld's one, a fix for how battle width is decided so bringing greater numbers is a real advantage, and some little bugfixes here and there for stuff like the peacetime convoy raiding bug. Gort fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 13:57
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Anbleed's AI still has a lot of room for improvement. Like I said a couple posts ago, I'm still seeing countries that just aren't developing properly. The big countries are all doing a lot better, but the smaller countries are definitely not. Is this due to how the mod is script-based? Are they only running the scripts for the top X number of countries or something? It's mostly frustrating because you'd like your puppets to actually develop the resources in their land, but they usually refuse to do so no matter how high the demand is. In my China campaign, Korea sat on their rear end not building a single mine through 20 - 30 years of +50% price for lead before I decided to say gently caress it and annex them outright. I would've let them be if they just build some goddamn lead mines. edit: They mentioned that they're still contemplating a foreign investment system for future versions (not 1.2), and that could eliminate some of my grievances when it comes to puppets/dominions. Just let me build poo poo in their land, please. I don't care if they're the ones collecting income tax or whatever as long as I get the goods. It could even make sense to extend this to foreign countries you have a trade agreement with. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 14:18
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Yeah, if there'd be an option to get perfect AI without changing anything else about the game I'd gladly ask devs to work on that. But that's unrealistic. AI is hard to parallel, you can't add it in DLC, and it wouldn't make much sense to only work on that. I'll only probably return to this game when I hear that you can't become #1 economy of the world as anybody just sitting there being passive.
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Jan 20, 2023 14:30
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The AI was a lot more competitive prior to the 1.1 patch, not in the least since they weren't demolishing their ports with regular frequency, so even just getting back to pre-1.1 levels would be a massive improvement. It's so bad now it can really only get better.
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Jan 20, 2023 14:38
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Anbleed's AI still has a lot of room for improvement. Like I said a couple posts ago, I'm still seeing countries that just aren't developing properly. The big countries are all doing a lot better, but the smaller countries are definitely not. Is this due to how the mod is script-based? Are they only running the scripts for the top X number of countries or something? It's mostly frustrating because you'd like your puppets to actually develop the resources in their land, but they usually refuse to do so no matter how high the demand is. In my China campaign, Korea sat on their rear end not building a single mine through 20 - 30 years of +50% price for lead before I decided to say gently caress it and annex them outright. I would've let them be if they just build some goddamn lead mines. Anbeeld is fairly active in the comments of the mod. One thing they said recently is that development in India may be slow due to the East India Company not having much money. I've not played the EIC so I don't know how true that is.
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Jan 20, 2023 14:50
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AG3 posted:The AI was a lot more competitive prior to the 1.1 patch, not in the least since they weren't demolishing their ports with regular frequency, so even just getting back to pre-1.1 levels would be a massive improvement. It's so bad now it can really only get better.
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Jan 20, 2023 14:52
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My experience with 4x games has long been that basically every time something gets changed the AI gets worse since the developers rarely re-write the AI to handle the new gameplay at each stage, and then if you're lucky every once and awhile they announce they'll be improving the AI and then go back and retune it. This is also why, as I understand it, the AI is usually left as one of the last features to work on before release. That's just not compatible with the current model of indefinite game development.
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Jan 20, 2023 17:35
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Bremen posted:My experience with 4x games has long been that basically every time something gets changed the AI gets worse since the developers rarely re-write the AI to handle the new gameplay at each stage, and then if you're lucky every once and awhile they announce they'll be improving the AI and then go back and retune it. I understand Stellaris's AI improved over it's lifetime, then again that was after the Custodian initiative if memory serves.
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Jan 20, 2023 17:43
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TwoQuestions posted:I understand Stellaris's AI improved over it's lifetime, then again that was after the Custodian initiative if memory serves. Stellaris was actually specifically one of the examples I was thinking about there. The AI there tended to get worse and worse as they added new features, then eventually they added the Custodian initiative where one of the major purposes was going back and fixing all the problems left by years of piecemeal changes. One of the big things they improved was the AI (like Vicky3, there was a player made AI mod that I believe they based some of it off of) and it really did wonders, but it required a dedicated development effort to do so. Because the AIs for 4x games tend to already be pretty complicated and would basically require major rewrites for what might, code wise, be an otherwise relatively minor change. Bremen fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jan 20, 2023 |
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Jan 20, 2023 18:11
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:My AI is unmodded and every piece of coastal land that I conquer has all their ports maxed out, even little poo poo islands in the pacific that have 5k people living on them. The Brits and French love doing that in my games; they'll demolish the ports on the mainland causing the market connections to get severed and their societies to collapse, then start maxing out ports on all their colonies instead because...??? They're not even bankrupt so I have no idea what's prompting that behavior. But yeah, I've also seen the AI overcorrect in the other direction and just spam ports everywhere. In one game I also saw Qing build almost nothing but admin buildings, even though they had next to no construction sectors, so they had admin buildings queued up that had an estimated completion time of over 1500 weeks. AI's really hosed in 1.1
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Jan 20, 2023 22:04
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AG3 posted:The Brits and French love doing that in my games; they'll demolish the ports on the mainland causing the market connections to get severed and their societies to collapse, then start maxing out ports on all their colonies instead because...??? They're not even bankrupt so I have no idea what's prompting that behavior. Part of that is probably that Qing has a lot less taxation capacity everywhere than it would need to get 100% of taxes. The AI probably thinks the government administrations will get them a lot of money (probably wrongly, unless they have telephones and the tech to use them in the gov administration they'll probably be a net negative in their budget. Assuming they don't need the bureaucracy too, of course).
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Jan 20, 2023 22:36
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Staltran posted:Part of that is probably that Qing has a lot less taxation capacity everywhere than it would need to get 100% of taxes. The AI probably thinks the government administrations will get them a lot of money (probably wrongly, unless they have telephones and the tech to use them in the gov administration they'll probably be a net negative in their budget. Assuming they don't need the bureaucracy too, of course). Obviously just making it random after getting construction times under control isn't ideal, but getting rid of a bottleneck in production might be worth it. And I suppose if the AI is currently loving up in its choices, then a random smattering of buildings would likely also outperform a single-minded focus on a single specific type.
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Jan 21, 2023 05:28
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So, how do I apply naval superiority against an enemy supported in an isle? Like, is it possible to stop my enemy from receiving troops from someone assisting in the preparation phase?
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Jan 21, 2023 17:54
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dead gay comedy forums posted:So, how do I apply naval superiority against an enemy supported in an isle? Like, is it possible to stop my enemy from receiving troops from someone assisting in the preparation phase? You can’t stop them being sent out but once the war starts convoy raiding can attrition their troops down to bring useless.
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Jan 21, 2023 18:21
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Proposal for a future building: Airports that provide Transportation and Services in exchange of Airplanes, Paper, and Oil.
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Jan 21, 2023 18:29
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