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TheDeadlyShoe posted:
I think you're off by a factor of 10 there, which strengthens your point I guess.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:18
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Libluini posted:Was this part actually in contention, though? We're moving around Leo-2s per rail all the time, and I'm sure Abrams in Germany also travel mostly by rail instead of clogging up streets. Strategic mobility is not a problem.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:18
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mobby_6kl posted:Yes but the M1, Challenger and Leo are completely different tanks, which is... not idea. Still, a better problem to have than "no tanks" Well yeah it isn't ideal but I'd venture a guess that in one year we will see consolidation to Leo2 and Abrams, if it takes more time consolidation to just Abrams which exists in very, very large numbers and its still produced in larger volume than Leo2.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:19
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Strongly suspect that stuff is going to start blowing up much farther behind the front line soonish, too.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:24
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DTurtle posted:All tanks are capable of being transported by train. Anybody saying something else is being dumb. I am scholz and I defy you, throw my gauntlet and poo poo! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 24, 2023 23:34
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Der Kyhe posted:This is the stuff that US tax-payers literally overpay for. That hammer might cost 200 USD per item, but if they order one to Diego Garcia with 48h delivery it will be there, or someone will lose their job and there will be an investigation. One of the funniest/saddest memes I've seen about this war is "Putin about to find out why we don't have socialized healthcare"
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Jan 24, 2023 23:35
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Johnny Nomad posted:The US has been constantly making brand new Abrams since the 80s at the Joint Systems Manufacturing Center, which used to be the Lima Army Tank Plant in Ohio. They make 10-12 a month. The army doesn't want or need them, but the government doesn't want to shut the plant down. One of the reasons the government has insisted on keeping Lima open is because once you close down the facility you lose the institutional of knowledge and experience necessary in building those tanks, and it would take shitloads of time and effort (and money) to restart production should, let's say, you ever need to suddenly provide M1s en masse to a not-quite-allied country being invaded by Russia. There's probably quite a few smug congresscritters who voted to keep that plant open today.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:41
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Kraftwerk posted:It seemed like there were never going to be enough Leopards and Challengers to meet the requirements of this war AND the domestic defense requirements of the donors. So the M1 just by being the most numerous western tank available seemed like the inevitable donation. The US built too many for their own needs and now those extras can get a new lease on life in Ukraine. This is the number one advantage of sending the M1; that it's a better tank than the Challenger or the variant of the Lp2 we are talking about is offset by the weight and the very real logistics issues, of which fuel type is just one. The US has more M1's in storage than it can use, and a few years ago the USDOD was begging Congress to stop having so many new M1's built, and was ignored of course, because North Carolina needs those tank building jobs.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:44
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I kinda feel like rather than going through with the C3 upgrade program, we should bite the bullet and give all the C2s to Ukraine, in return for operating updated M1s for ~15 years. Either make the C3 a totally new design or join the Main Ground Combat System program.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:48
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:One of the reasons the government has insisted on keeping Lima open is because once you close down the facility you lose the institutional of knowledge and experience necessary in building those tanks, and it would take shitloads of time and effort (and money) to restart production should, let's say, you ever need to suddenly provide M1s en masse to a not-quite-allied country being invaded by Russia. Also when you are designing and building your next tank it's quite useful to have a bunch of people around skilled in the practical art of building tanks.
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Jan 24, 2023 23:55
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Charliegrs posted:One of the funniest/saddest memes I've seen about this war is "Putin about to find out why we don't have socialized healthcare" I guess the even sadder part about that is that it really has nothing to do with. The US health care system is just lovely and still really expensive to state, more so than most European health care systems IIRC. The Soviets actually did cut back on healthcare spending significantly to be able to keep pouring money into the military and more immediately apparent things. The government not spending enough money on health care is not the main reason for the state and structure of the US health care system.
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Jan 25, 2023 00:29
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Libluini posted:Ironically, even Germany is still building their main battle tanks (because we sell them) -there are even like a dozen more versions of the things after the 2A6. The new Panther that Rheinmetall recently announced has a 130mm main gun. I didn't realize before, but I read that German tanks use tungsten rather than depleted uranium for their sabot (anti-tank) ammunition. DU is significantly better, so the larger shell may be necessary if you're stuck with tungsten and are worried about T14 Armatas.
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Jan 25, 2023 00:40
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's still nothing I've seen that indicates Russia has any actual plan to affirmatively win the war. I know this is a long shot, but I was watching a video about the Sino Soviet Split and I never quite appreciated how much of a sticking point that the mid 19th century Russian takeover of Outer Manchuria was to the CCP brass in the 60s with the treaty of Aigun being frequently brought up by Mao and others as one of the worst of the unequal treaties that the Soviet Union was still gaining from at the expense of China. It was one of the justifications for why the Chinese were so dogged to the point of bloody border clashes that almost lead to outright war between the two countries, over what seemed to be a bunch of tiny little islands in the Amur river. That was then of course, China's way more powerful than the Russians now compared to the 60s, and that gap's only going to continue to widen. If Russia really does end up being basically just a client state, I wonder what would really stop the Chinese for asking for a few understandable border changes in a few decades, Gadsden purchase style? khwarezm fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 00:53
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Charliegrs posted:One of the funniest/saddest memes I've seen about this war is "Putin about to find out why we don't have socialized healthcare" One of the funniest thing about this meme is that for some people it's a confirmation that public healthcare is bad.
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Jan 25, 2023 00:56
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:One of the reasons the government has insisted on keeping Lima open is because once you close down the facility you lose the institutional of knowledge and experience necessary in building those tanks, and it would take shitloads of time and effort (and money) to restart production should, let's say, you ever need to suddenly provide M1s en masse to a not-quite-allied country being invaded by Russia. Probably only because recent events make it easier to retroactively provide cover justification for delivering on their MIC bribes.
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Jan 25, 2023 01:18
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ZombieLenin posted:The US has more M1's in storage than it can use, and a few years ago the USDOD was begging Congress to stop having so many new M1's built, and was ignored of course, because North Carolina needs those tank building jobs. North Carolina? The M1 is produced at a plant in Lima, Ohio as far as I can tell - what are you talking about there?
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Jan 25, 2023 01:38
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Sereri posted:I think you're off by a factor of 10 there, which strengthens your point I guess. Indeed, my egregious mistake is central to my point. :nod: Eletriarnation posted:North Carolina? The M1 is produced at a plant in Lima, Ohio as far as I can tell - what are you talking about there? The one weird trick that the US military has discovered for getting their programs passed in Congress is to spread out manufacturing so as many districts as possible get a piece of the sinister pie. Only later did they discover this also made the programs impossible to cancel.
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Jan 25, 2023 01:43
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Ynglaur posted:The new Panther that Rheinmetall recently announced has a 130mm main gun. I didn't realize before, but I read that German tanks use tungsten rather than depleted uranium for their sabot (anti-tank) ammunition. DU is significantly better, so the larger shell may be necessary if you're stuck with tungsten and are worried about T14 Armatas. depleted uranium is only 5-10% better than tungsten carbide, and considering a Leo-2's KE-ammunition can break through up to 800mm armor, I'm not convinced it's necessary to poison Ukrainian soldiers and civilians by littering their land with depleted uranium
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Jan 25, 2023 01:56
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Szarrukin posted:One of the funniest thing about this meme is that for some people it's a confirmation that public healthcare is bad. It's not even true. Not having public healthcare is a loss to everyone that's not the insurance industry or drug manufacturers or others directly profiteering from it. They money doesn't magically get spent on tanks instead, it just goes into the pockets of insurance company CEO's and stockholders.
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Jan 25, 2023 01:59
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Libluini posted:depleted uranium is only 5-10% better than tungsten carbide, and considering a Leo-2's KE-ammunition can break through up to 800mm armor, I'm not convinced it's necessary to poison Ukrainian soldiers and civilians by littering their land with depleted uranium A few thousand DU rounds would probably be among the least of their worries in terms of the health hazards and pollution being strewn across Ukraine.
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Jan 25, 2023 02:18
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Vox Nihili posted:A few thousand DU rounds would probably be among the least of their worries in terms of the health hazards and pollution being strewn across Ukraine. Curious, is this an actual concern or even a hypothetical one for Ukraine in general at this point in the war?
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Jan 25, 2023 02:24
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Eletriarnation posted:North Carolina? The M1 is produced at a plant in Lima, Ohio as far as I can tell - what are you talking about there? You are correct, Lima Ohio is where assembly happens, but I think engines are produced in North Carolina. Though I may be getting that location confused with the Bradley engines are built. It's entirely true the army has been asking for fewer new tanks for a long time only to be ignored by congress, however.
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Jan 25, 2023 02:39
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notwithoutmyanus posted:Curious, is this an actual concern or even a hypothetical one for Ukraine in general at this point in the war? You mean health/pollution hazards or DU pollution in particular? In either case they're genuine and legitimate concerns, it's just that they necessarily take a back seat to winning and surviving what's essentially an existential war.
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Jan 25, 2023 02:40
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It's also not like inhaling a bunch of tungsten carbide dust is good for you, either. Yes, depleted uranium dust is probably worse for you, but if its between killing the T-80 with the first round through the front hull and not killing it, I'll take the former and try to warn recovery crews to stay away from the wreck for a few days if they can manage. Libluini - Do you happen to have sources on the "5-10% better"? I'm not doubting you - I'm just curious to learn more.
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Jan 25, 2023 02:56
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If the below is accurate, Abrams delivery is months to years away. https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/1618013758974222336?s=46&t=LO8ZmCk8-OUrb88Mp9vsow
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Jan 25, 2023 04:24
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mlmp08 posted:If the below is accurate, Abrams delivery is months to years away. Sounds like they pinky swear that Ukraine gets M1s to give Germany whatever magic words/political cover they need to justify their own tank exports.
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Jan 25, 2023 04:37
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Kraftwerk posted:Sounds like they pinky swear that Ukraine gets M1s to give Germany whatever magic words/political cover they need to justify their own tank exports. Yeah I hope this is basically just the US telling Germany to put up or shut up. Because if it's going to take years to get Ukraine the tanks it's needs then that's just more time for things to go wrong in other ways. Like more chuds get elected, the EU starts getting impatient, more time for Russia to import more weapons from Iran and NK etc.
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Jan 25, 2023 05:22
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Regarding "can you move M1 Abrams? how?", if you live in the US you probably see this regularly. M1s get shuffled around the country *all the time*. They can't be driven on highways (as Trump found out to his great sorrow when he wanted to have a big tank parade) but they ride on train cars fine. No reason why any other modern MBT would have issues. And as mentioned, the whole logistics corps of the US military is built around moving things like tanks from point A to point B quickly. The big concern is training Ukrainian tank crews to not do what Russia did and drive them into battle unsupported so infantrymen can say hello via an ATGM. However Ukraine has shown that in terms of combined arms warfare they will most likely be the ones holding the classes for the next 20 years or so.
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Jan 25, 2023 08:32
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The only tank that historically couldn't be moved easily was the Nazi German Maus which weighed 180 tons (3 times the weight of an M1 Abrams), would take down bridges it was driven over, and it didn't actually exist past a couple of prototypes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus
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Jan 25, 2023 08:40
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Ynglaur posted:It's also not like inhaling a bunch of tungsten carbide dust is good for you, either. Yes, depleted uranium dust is probably worse for you, but if its between killing the T-80 with the first round through the front hull and not killing it, I'll take the former and try to warn recovery crews to stay away from the wreck for a few days if they can manage. I got this from Wikipedia, but I'm on my way to work now and Google and Wikipedia works like rear end on my phone. I'm getting drowned in info about how terrifyingly hazardous DU is for your health I'll have to try again when I'm home in the evening
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Jan 25, 2023 09:04
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Speaking of, the Bradley photos we saw recently apparently were for the Baltics, and of a bit newer model than what Ukraine is getting. Because the long-scale English speaking countries weren't important enough, so they just gave up.
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Jan 25, 2023 09:31
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How have I never learned of this before?
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Scholz just said that they want Ukraine to receive 2 battalions of Leopard 2 tanks. As a first step Germany is sending over 14 Leopard 2A6. Those come directly from the Bundeswehr. They will also give authorization to other nations who want to send Leopards. The official announcement in German can be found here: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg...aine-an-2160236 The interesting part is this one: quote:Das Ziel ist es, rasch zwei Panzer-Bataillone mit Leopard-2-Panzern für die Ukraine zusammenzustellen. Dazu wird Deutschland in einem ersten Schritt eine Kompanie mit 14 Leopard-2-A6-Panzern zur Verfügung stellen, die aus Beständen der Bundeswehr stammen. Weitere europäische Partner werden ihrerseits Panzer vom Typ Leopard-2 übergeben. Die Ausbildung der ukrainischen Besatzungen soll in Deutschland zügig beginnen. Zu dem Paket werden neben der Ausbildung auch Logistik, Munition und Wartung der Systeme gehören. It says that they (Germany and other countries) want to establish 2 battalions of Leopards, which I believe would mean 88 tanks. The training required to run the tanks is supposed to start "swiftly" in Germany and includes logistics, munitions and servicing.
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Jan 25, 2023 12:09
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lagidnam posted:Scholz just said that they want Ukraine to receive 2 battalions of Leopard 2 tanks. As a first step Germany is sending over 14 Leopard 2A6. Those come directly from the Bundeswehr. Depends on the kind of battalion we’re talking about, but iirc NATO tanks-featuring battalions should be 2 or 4 companies of tanks per battalion, meaning this is 56 or 112 tanks total. If I had to guess, it’s the latter here.
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Jan 25, 2023 12:52
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Huh wrong thread.
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Jan 25, 2023 13:24
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Ynglaur posted:It's also not like inhaling a bunch of tungsten carbide dust is good for you, either. ... True but for the most part its the operators riding in the target that are breathing the majority of it (cutaneously)
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Jan 25, 2023 14:57
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lagidnam posted:Scholz just said that they want Ukraine to receive 2 battalions of Leopard 2 tanks. As a first step Germany is sending over 14 Leopard 2A6. Those come directly from the Bundeswehr. So they are sending 14 Leopards now, and 88 overall? As in 14-88 tanks?  May want to send 1 more (or less) to avoid the Hitler number.
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Jan 25, 2023 14:57
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Depends on the kind of battalion we’re talking about, but iirc NATO tanks-featuring battalions should be 2 or 4 companies of tanks per battalion, meaning this is 56 or 112 tanks total. If I had to guess, it’s the latter here. In general its unclear if Ukraine is organizing Western weapons using NATO organizational structures or Ukrainian. I tend to think the latter. I.e. 2 battalions of Leopards would be 62 tanks. That said, I could see each party using their own language. So Germany sends 2 x NATO battalions worth of Leopards and Ukraine creates 2.5 x Ukrainian tank battalions with them.
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Jan 25, 2023 15:10
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mlmp08 posted:If the below is accurate, Abrams delivery is months to years away. quote:SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Great. And then, with that, let’s open it up to Q&A. We’ll turn it back over to you.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:35
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Now that's interesting. If Ukrainian tank battalions are organized along Soviet lines--and they mostly are, with 31 tanks per battalion--they should only have 1-2 recovery vehicles per battalion. A US mechanized battalion doesn't even have 8: it has 1 per company and 1 or 2 (I can't remember which) at the battalion level. A few possibilities:
Recovery vehicles are a very important maneuver asset. The faster you can recover disabled or stuck vehicles, the faster you can move the maximum amount of combat power around.
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Jan 25, 2023 21:51
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quote:And as with other capabilities, you’ve seen us do this before, if we do not have (inaudible) readily within U.S. stocks, then we go the procurement route to make sure that we can procure the right capability for Ukraine. And that is what we’re doing here with the Abrams. This is why I'm so confused by this whole tank situation. So early last year some T72s were supplied from Poland/Slovakia etc. At that point it had to be clear that this wouldn't be enough to drive all the way to Moscow, so surely a prudent thing would've been to start preparing more poo poo then, so that while the political things are being worked out, all the logistical things could be worked out.
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