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Who's your 2022 MVP? This poll is closed. |
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| Shohei Ohtani |
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50 | 59.52% |
| Aaron Judge |
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19 | 22.62% |
| Hey, the national league has an MVP too you know! |
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15 | 17.86% |
| Total: | 84 votes | ||
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FlamingLiberal posted:Rolen won a shitload of Gold Gloves at a premium position And his combined WARs are like 25 points higher than Helton's.
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Jan 25, 2023 06:04
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https://twitter.com/maddie_m_lee/status/1618028767515136006 MANROD is still in the Cubs' system 
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Jan 25, 2023 06:17
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I’m glad Rolen got in and I dearly hope Helton gets in
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Jan 25, 2023 06:28
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davecrazy posted:My hottest HoF take is that the guy who left Jeter off the ballot so he would not get an unanimous election is a national hero. Honestly once Griffey and Jeter didn't get 100% I figured it really wasn't ever going to happen And then it happened for a closer
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Jan 25, 2023 07:05
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Reiche posted:I’m glad Rolen got in and I dearly hope Helton gets in
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Jan 25, 2023 14:30
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I'm all for having all the elite players of their era in the Hall but I think it's crazy not to also vote in players who were not quite the most elite players but were also significant to the narrative of baseball during their career. The writers elected Big Papi and they will elect Yadi. Jack Morris and Kirby Puckett are in the HoF. It makes sense for guys like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Frank White, and so forth to be in the HoF, in my opinion.
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Jan 25, 2023 14:36
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tadashi posted:I'm all for having all the elite players of their era in the Hall but I think it's crazy not to also vote in players who were not quite the most elite players but were also significant to the narrative of baseball during their career. One of the bigger exclusions here is Dick Allen.
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Jan 25, 2023 14:53
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tadashi posted:I'm all for having all the elite players of their era in the Hall but I think it's crazy not to also vote in players who were not quite the most elite players but were also significant to the narrative of baseball during their career. So does Bob Grich
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Jan 25, 2023 15:00
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Intruder posted:Honestly once Griffey and Jeter didn't get 100% I figured it really wasn't ever going to happen It was still a Yankee anyway, of course 
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Jan 25, 2023 15:17
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tadashi posted:I'm all for having all the elite players of their era in the Hall but I think it's crazy not to also vote in players who were not quite the most elite players but were also significant to the narrative of baseball during their career. This is why I’m against the idea of a “small” hall, there are too many exceptional players in baseball history. It’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Only the Absolute Best Players. Popular players from each era should be able to get in, even if they’re not statistically as impressive as other players already in.
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Jan 25, 2023 15:17
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Holy gently caress I can’t wait for baseball
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Jan 25, 2023 15:27
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What are pitchers and catchers even doing right now that they can't report to spring training.
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Jan 25, 2023 15:28
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Gerblederp posted:Holy gently caress I can’t wait for baseball
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Jan 25, 2023 15:50
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tadashi posted:Jack Morris and Kirby Puckett are in the HoF. One of these things is not like the other
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Jan 25, 2023 15:51
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Ya one beat his wife, the other didn't.
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Jan 25, 2023 16:04
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euphronius posted:How do you figure he deserves to be in the hall. Defense ? If Harold Baines, Jack Morris, and Andre Dawson are hall of famers, Scott Rolen is a hall of famer
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Jan 25, 2023 16:22
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Red posted:If Harold Baines, Jack Morris, and Andre Dawson are hall of famers, Scott Rolen is a hall of famer Dude gently caress you Andre belongs there. I may be biased because he was my favorite player as a kid.
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Jan 25, 2023 17:43
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FlamingLiberal posted:Lou Whitaker needs to get in before Murphy, Mattingly, and Frank White For sure. There are a lot of obvious omissions. I don't know why Whitaker can't get in when voted on by his peers except that the committee system lends itself to a system of gatekeeping by the members and also lobbying for HoF entry by candidates or their allies. Maybe Whitaker just needs a critical mass of people connected to the 80s Tigers teams to get on a committee together. That's basically why Lee Smith and Harold Baines got in. I just think "small hall" guarantees glaring omissions and also bad choices of inductees. And if writers are only going to induct players based on WAR or JAWS (which I like), or some plateau numbers, then why have a vote? While I have time to post: people who don't think Scott Rolen belongs in the Hall of Fame have no appreciation for Scott Rolen's value. 1. True 3rd basemen are criminally under-represented in the Hall. 2. If people are just looking at Scott Rolen's raw offensive stats, I've got some news about Brooks Robinson you might want to look into... 3. His career WAR was 1.3 less than Jeter even though he played 3 less seasons. 4. By JAWS (a measure of peak WAR vs. career WAR), he improves the average score of HoF third basemen, even when you include guys who were not really 3rd basemen like Edgar Martinez and Paul Molitor. tadashi fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 17:46
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Because you had to have a Big Hall, did ya You had to open up the gates You had to have a Big Hall, did ya Oh, those players weren't that great You had to let them all in, big brains I don't know what it's all about You had to seize control of the reins You had to welcome in Harold Baines
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Jan 25, 2023 17:54
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Red posted:If Harold Baines, Jack Morris, and Andre Dawson are hall of famers, Scott Rolen is a hall of famer If it’s close or above 60 (Dawson 64.8), then they are at worst an interesting edge case worthy of nuanced consideration. If they’re well below 60 (Morris 43.5, Baines 38.8) then fire away. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 18:08
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:Dude gently caress you Andre belongs there. No problem, I used to love Orel Hershiser, and, well
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Jan 25, 2023 18:43
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It's extremely wrong that Shohei Ohtani is not in the HoF.
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Jan 25, 2023 18:45
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Andre Dawson is not a case of rose colored glasses. He was RotY, MVP, an 8x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, 8x Gold Glove, 64.8 bWAR, 53.7 JAWS, etc. He’s head and shoulders above guys like Morris and Baines
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Jan 25, 2023 18:52
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bawfuls posted:Andre Dawson is not a case of rose colored glasses. He was RotY, MVP, an 8x All Star, 4x Silver Slugger, 8x Gold Glove, 64.8 bWAR, 53.7 JAWS, etc. None of those 3 should be in.
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Jan 25, 2023 18:55
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mcmagic posted:None of those 3 should be in. Compelling argument
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Jan 25, 2023 18:55
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mcmagic posted:None of those 3 should be in. I keep harping on WAR here because this is the realm where it is most useful. Over an entire career the individual randomness and quibbles we have with year to year WAR tend to wash out. (Like that one season Nola had 9.7 bWAR because of the way the algorithm treated Philly’s defense) There’s nobody with 100 WAR who you’re like “that guy wasn’t that good he just got lucky with the way the star is calculated” and there’s no 20 WAR player who secretly got jobbed by the math. WAR isnt the end all be all of HoF discourse but it is an extremely useful starting point. So if you’re gonna say a guy with 65 WAR isn’t a Hall of Famer (and imply it’s not even close) I’m going to need you to articulate where your bar is. 70? 80? 100? bawfuls fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 18:58
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Btw Dawson was elected by the voters while Morris and Baines were bullshit committee inductions. If anything the BBWAA is too stingy, not too generous. All the least qualified inductions are committee cases.
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Jan 25, 2023 19:01
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Lee Smith is another modern VC guy that should never have been elected
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Jan 25, 2023 19:16
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Yeah, it's hard to argue that Dawson is clearly out unless your HOF is only inner circle dudes. Joe DiMaggio is probably the first guy to make the cut if Dawson is clearly out. Duke Snider is clearly out. Richie Ashburn, also clearly out. Sliding Billy Hamilton? See ya. You'd end up with a HOF of about 130 players.
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Jan 25, 2023 19:22
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Meanwhile the list of worthy players the writers have failed to elect includes the obvious like Bonds and Clemens, but also guys like Kevin Brown (67.8 WAR), Alan Trammell (70.7), and Ron Santo (70.5).
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Jan 25, 2023 19:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:Lou Whitaker needs to get in before Murphy, Mattingly, and Frank White Frank White was my favorite player as a kid but he's not quite HOF worthy. Murphy, Whitaker and Grich should be in but gently caress Mattingly. Not good enough for long enough. Also the HOF has too many Yankees already.
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Jan 25, 2023 19:25
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WAR does at least useful for Hall of Fame discussion in like lining up everyone's numbers and seeing who the outliers are. And it doesn't mean someone HAS to be in because everyone near him his in or that someone shouldn't be in even if he's below the median. But it does naturally bring about the questions of "Why?" and what makes him different. I feel like I have a much looser and bigger Hall view of things. I'm ok with guys getting in if they were historically significant or had really incredible runs. I'm ok with someone getting in because he was "the face of baseball" for a little while even if it didn't pan out. I mean I guess that could be stretched out and you could try and get me to put Yasiel Puig in the Hall or something. But I dunno. If the Hall is just a list of guys who hit a certain stat benchmark then it feels like it takes away any of the romanticism and natural baseball humanity of it. Its just a list then. And do I know "romanticism and natural baseball humanity" are nonsense silly terms? Yes, of course. But baseball is a silly game and I'm a silly fan and Cooperstown is a silly little town that makes me feel like a kid when I go there. So I dunno. I'll accept an errant Harold Baines who maybe doesn't feel quite right for some guys who do even if their numbers might not be up to a high standard.
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Jan 25, 2023 19:32
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Sandy Koufax has 48.9 bWAR. Stats matter but context matters too.
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Jan 25, 2023 19:32
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habeasdorkus posted:Yeah, it's hard to argue that Dawson is clearly out unless your HOF is only inner circle dudes. Joe DiMaggio is probably the first guy to make the cut if Dawson is clearly out. Duke Snider is clearly out. Richie Ashburn, also clearly out. Sliding Billy Hamilton? See ya. You'd end up with a HOF of about 130 players. Mike Piazza Yogi Berra Tim Raines Eddie Murray Tony Gwynn Pudge Rodriguez John Smoltz Edgar Martinez Pee Wee Reese Ryne Sandberg Ernie Banks (Miguel Cabrera) (Joey Votto) Don Drysdale Don Sutton Duke Snyder Ed Walsh Craig Biggio Willie McCovey Roy Halladay Dave Winfield Bob Feller Juan Marichal If Dawson is an “obvious” shortfall then so are all these guys.
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Jan 25, 2023 19:34
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zoux posted:Sandy Koufax has 48.9 bWAR. Stats matter but context matters too. Sure you can get in with less than 50 WAR, IF you had a peak as great as Koufax did. 36.3 of that came in his final 4 years, and 46.8 were in the final 6. Basically everyone else with a peak that elite also hung around long enough to get 60+ WAR. Morris meanwhile took 18 seasons to reach 43.5. bawfuls fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 19:37
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David Ortiz only has 55.3 WAR
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Jan 25, 2023 19:37
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Ichiro has a career WAR of exactly 60 and a career OPS of only .757, the bum
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Jan 25, 2023 19:41
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Right, borderline by the numbers guy who gets a boost for his narrative impact. Working As Intended. Edit: this was about Ortiz bawfuls fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 25, 2023 |
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Jan 25, 2023 19:42
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Dude if your theory has you saying things like "Ichiro was a borderline guy" Speaking of questionable cases now, does Ozzie Smith even sniff a 26 man roster in 2023
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Jan 25, 2023 19:42
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zoux posted:Dude if your theory has you saying things like "Ichiro was a borderline guy"
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Jan 25, 2023 19:46
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