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I never got the impression Judeau wanted to redeem Haman, I thought he wanted her to get the f away from him and stop being a creepo.
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Jan 27, 2023 17:59
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Rebellion actually does present Gato as a theoretically admirable character, because he has a lot more humanizing moments, his relationship with his men is explored a little more deeply, and he's just generally allowed to say and do things besides repeating Sieg Zeon over and over. He's still a terrorist shithead, but there's infinitely more effort put into giving him admirable qualities than the 0083 OVA ever gives him.ManSedan posted:I never got the impression Judeau wanted to redeem Haman, I thought he wanted her to get the f away from him and stop being a creepo. Judau's wanting to "redeem" Haman basically boils down to him being distraught that she'd simply give up and commit suicide out of stubbornness instead of trying to change or make up for what she did. For most of the series I concur with your read - Haman wants Judau to join her and Judau is having absolutely none of it. His philosophical discussions with her basically boil down to Darth Vader talking to Luke.
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Jan 27, 2023 18:00
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https://twitter.com/AMON100shiki/status/1618233767197540352
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Jan 27, 2023 18:42
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 It's even green.
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Jan 27, 2023 18:46
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Judeau is loving crazy for choosing a normal well adjusted girl his own age over an insane war criminal
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Jan 27, 2023 19:08
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Yeah but have you considered that some of the crazy war criminals are pretty fun?
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Jan 27, 2023 19:10
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War and Pieces posted:Judeau is loving crazy for choosing a normal well adjusted girl his own age over an insane war criminal Roux is still 4 years older than him.
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Jan 27, 2023 19:25
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https://twitter.com/TheOtaking/status/1618685616920883200?t=yRmFJ4RC36Ad1VDprdAzZA&s=19
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Jan 27, 2023 19:59
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Kanos posted:Rebellion actually does present Gato as a theoretically admirable character, because he has a lot more humanizing moments, his relationship with his men is explored a little more deeply, and he's just generally allowed to say and do things besides repeating Sieg Zeon over and over. He's still a terrorist shithead, but there's infinitely more effort put into giving him admirable qualities than the 0083 OVA ever gives him. Gato also gets much stronger foils as Kelly isn't instantly removed from the story. He's sympathetic, but never really aspirational imo, because you get to see more of his conflict and acknowledgment of his actions than the OVA offers. I don't really agree with Tsob that the mainline of Rebellion that covers the OVA content makes him out to be anything other than a delusional lost causer, who simply doesn't have anyone on the other side who is skilled enough to stop him. His success is more about the Federation's conflicts and shortcomings in the manga than any particularly elevated trait that's unique to him. The OVA acts like he was always going to succeed, where as the manga I think really frames his success in Operation Stardust as being tied to how dumb the Federation is acting, imo it plays up the Titans and makes that plot way more central than the OVA to its benefit. Rebellion isn't perfect (Nina is worse, so much worse), and the continuation into the foundation of the Titans gets real weird with Gato, but the core pieces I don't think elevate him as a positive figure. Judau really wanted Haman to recognize that both being newtypes the world was a lot bigger than Haman wanted to admit. It always felt like to me he thought (perhaps childishly and foolishly) that if he could get her to look beyond Axis/Zeon she'd actually be a good person. Same story as Gundam always has, Haman let her soul be dragged down by the gravity of titles and history instead of connecting to expand humanity to the stars. It's actually the part of Unicorn I like, getting to have Mineva actually learn the lesson. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 27, 2023 |
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Jan 27, 2023 20:20
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Arc Hammer posted:Yeah but have you considered that some of the crazy war criminals are pretty fun? this is also wht Cima did nothing wrong
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Jan 27, 2023 22:28
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War and Pieces posted:Judeau is loving crazy for choosing a normal well adjusted girl his own age over an insane war criminal Judau's chosen girlfriend shoots a weirdo creeper to death with a beam rifle shot directly to his unarmored fleshy body, and that's pretty hot.
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Jan 28, 2023 00:14
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Rebellion isn't perfect (Nina is worse, so much worse), and the continuation into the foundation of the Titans gets real weird with Gato, but the core pieces I don't think elevate him as a positive figure. Jesus Christ, How Horrifying. How?
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Jan 28, 2023 01:39
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tries to blow her brains out when gato tells her to go away
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Jan 28, 2023 01:57
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https://twitter.com/jJcq1UcKLRmwvOT/status/1619001384346750977?s=20&t=PUjFtNqg7oiq3qqE7L4GNg
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Jan 28, 2023 03:26
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Fivemarks posted:Jesus Christ, How Horrifying. How? She's "worse" insofar as she's actually given a lot of agency and uses that agency to make bad decisions. Her relationship with Gato is expanded upon a lot and it's shown that she actually has reasons to be super attached to him, and she willingly goes to the Delaz fleet to be with him and offers to assist them with technical stuff. When Gato tells her that she should leave for her own good, she attempts suicide. She's also generally shittier to Kou, who is actually likeable and not a whiny moron in Rebellion so it comes off worse. To be clear, Rebellion Nina is a way, way better character, she's just a way worse person, if that makes sense.
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Jan 28, 2023 07:11
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Honestly I prefer it when they lean all in on making a character absolutely terrible from the get go. Someday I'll read Rebellion and have a love/hate relationship with Nina since I have a love/hate relationship with her in 0083. I ended up watching the original Top Gun recently and for all the jokes, she really does have a vibe that's similar Charlie's but that takes a hard swerve in to "what the gently caress???".
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Jan 28, 2023 07:18
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Rebellion isn't 100% perfect, but as a whole it's just an immensely better and more coherent take on the same broad storyline. The characters are far better written and many of the stupider plot beats are improved enormously. It's the only Gundam manga I've ever truly enjoyed on its own merits besides Origin and Thunderbolt.
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Jan 28, 2023 07:39
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The initial MSV cameos are nice in part of expanding the scenario and the scope of things. But they keep happening and it never really stops and just kind of interrupts events to show you new poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:32
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The MS-V Jonny Ridden manga had a huge space fight with Char that went on for like twenty drat chapters. I don’t think it even had any purpose; the rest of the cast is hunting an old Zanzibar near Konpei Island and then Char shows up a souped up Rick Dias and stomps on everyone there, gets “combat data”, then dips. Edit: oh and Yazan nearly kills him. ManSedan fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jan 28, 2023 |
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Jan 28, 2023 15:55
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If the Johnny Ridden manga is about how literally every bad guy ace pilot from the UC is a jackass except Johnny Ridden, who's nice, that sounds good to me.
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Jan 28, 2023 16:36
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The Return of Johnny Ridden is bonkers. It starts out as a fun showcase of obscure MS variations and technical stuff and now there’s an anti-Newtype corps from the OYW which includes an early chemically induced cyber newtype, a hidden apocalyptic bio weapon developed by the Zabis, political intrigue starring Gopp (with his Cyber Newtype daughter also named Johnny Ridden), a whole section about artificial islands for recovering the earth, and now Char and Neo Zeon.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:02
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ManSedan posted:The Return of Johnny Ridden is bonkers. It starts out as a fun showcase of obscure MS variations and technical stuff and now there’s an anti-Newtype corps from the OYW which includes an early chemically induced cyber newtype, a hidden apocalyptic bio weapon developed by the Zabis, political intrigue starring Gopp (with his Cyber Newtype daughter also named Johnny Ridden), a whole section about artificial islands for recovering the earth, and now Char and Neo Zeon. If I'm remembering the right thing* that bioweapon has been around as one of Zeon's forgotten side projects for the better part of 20 years *cause of course the Universal Century has had multiple horrific bioweapons made over it's existence
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Jan 28, 2023 23:34
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ManSedan posted:The Return of Johnny Ridden is bonkers. It starts out as a fun showcase of obscure MS variations and technical stuff and now there’s an anti-Newtype corps from the OYW which includes an early chemically induced cyber newtype, a hidden apocalyptic bio weapon developed by the Zabis, political intrigue starring Gopp (with his Cyber Newtype daughter also named Johnny Ridden), a whole section about artificial islands for recovering the earth, and now Char and Neo Zeon. My favorite part is Led Wayline, at least in the part that's been translated. He's the titular returning Johnny Ridden, but he insists that's impossible, because he's Led Wayline, from Ohio. His mom still lives there, even! You can call her! He's just some regular goober who happens to be a really good pilot! Meanwhile, we keep getting flashbacks to Johnny Ridden, LEADER OF MEN. He's a legend among Zeon's forces, a man of honor and astonishing talent, whose troops respected him above everyone else, and whose enemies remember him with a strange fondness. The neat bit was how well the manga does at selling both of them as the same dude. (Also, yeah. Asteroth is from a Dreamcast game released in 1999. It's been around a while.)
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Jan 29, 2023 00:05
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I like the theory that Johnny Ridden is just a GiTS SaC style Stand Alone Complex.
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Jan 29, 2023 04:03
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https://mangadex.org/chapter/9e4d320e-b807-4979-a7b1-34d9311e56a4 New Gundam Pulitzer chapter. I dont know if I'll ever not giggle at the wild leap from "if people can learn to understand each other as we newtypea have, then perhaps someday humans will learn to control time itself!" Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 06:57
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When will the earth federation special forces come after her for getting too close to the truth
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Jan 29, 2023 07:02
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Arc Hammer posted:I dont know if I'll ever not giggle at the wild leap from "if people can learn to understand each other as we newtypea have, then perhaps someday humans will learn to control time itself!" A symbolic turn of phrase that Fukui took completely literally. 
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Jan 29, 2023 12:09
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Kanos posted:She's "worse" insofar as she's actually given a lot of agency and uses that agency to make bad decisions. Her relationship with Gato is expanded upon a lot and it's shown that she actually has reasons to be super attached to him, and she willingly goes to the Delaz fleet to be with him and offers to assist them with technical stuff. When Gato tells her that she should leave for her own good, she attempts suicide. She's also generally shittier to Kou, who is actually likeable and not a whiny moron in Rebellion so it comes off worse. This is a great summation, she's a much more developed character, it's just that everything she does really comes off in a way that makes her just look like an awful awful person. In the OVA I think she's given just enough info to understand her attachment to the past, but she's given characterization that implies she has a desire to move towards the future. In the manga she behaves as though she cannot see the present and can only wallow in her own bullshit to the detriment of everyone.
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Jan 29, 2023 17:17
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Arc Hammer posted:https://mangadex.org/chapter/9e4d320e-b807-4979-a7b1-34d9311e56a4 I'm still waiting to see the Tears of Time. I don't even care about controlling it.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:35
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Kanos posted:A symbolic turn of phrase that Fukui took completely literally. I would have some serious doubts that it was meant to be entirely symbolic given that the climax of the same show is Amuro using prescience (a power that can reasonably be summed up as "seeing time") to guide the entire crew of the White Base out of the exploding A Baoa Qu at once after using said power on a much smaller scale to beat a trained fencer at fencing by reading his movements and then communing with a ghost; never mind that the next few sequels only turned those supernatural phenomena up to 10. Fukui gets a lot of stick for turning the knob to 11, but Tomino established the trend long before Fukui worked on Gundam. tsob fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 18:52
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tsob posted:I would have some serious doubts that it was meant to be entirely symbolic given that the climax of the same show is Amuro using prescience (a power that can reasonably be summed up as "seeing time") to guide the entire crew of the White Base out of the exploding A Baoa Qu at once after using said power on a much smaller scale to beat a trained fencer at fencing by reading his movements and then communing with a ghost; never mind that the next few sequels only turned those supernatural phenomena up to 10. Fukui gets a lot of stick for turning the knob to 11, but Tomino established the trend long before Fukui worked on Gundam. There is a cavernous gulf between "newtypes have a weird form of prescience that transcends normal forms of perception" and "newtypes can wave their hands and physically reverse time for specific objects". If Narrative is an 11 on the magic power spookometer, Unicorn is like a 9, CCA is like an 8, and the ending sequence of Mobile Suit Gundam is like a 5.
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Jan 30, 2023 20:42
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There is not, however, a caverous gulf between "someday we might be able to control time itself" and "character literally sees time as the climax of the story"; especially when, again, Tomino continued to inflate what his characters could do using those same paranormal/post-human powers over the next few entries and especially especially when the characters used technology to augment those powers as became the norm for the leads of a given entry after the original show. Yes, there's a definite gulf between "seeing time" and "controlling time", but the fact that the characters could see time at all suggests the usage of the phrase "controlling time" was never actually meant purely symbolically.
tsob fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 21:08
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This is incredibly semantic
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Jan 30, 2023 21:10
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Most of the Tomino run was in the 80s, during the peak of city pop Therefore, we can conclude that newtypes can in fact Ride on Time
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Jan 30, 2023 21:10
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One might say that Newtypes go Beyond the Time.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:11
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Unlike Bright, the man who could not ride the rainbow.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:11
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ninjewtsu posted:This is incredibly semantic I don't think it is. At all. Kanos is arguing that Tomino included the phrase "controlling time" purely symbolically and I'm arguing that while the line might have had some symbolism to it, it was never meant to be purely symbolic because even early on Tomino liked to have his characters use paranormal powers to reflect their growth and give thematic weight to proceedings. The two positions are basically diametrically opposed and not just quibbling over language.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:14
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You're wrong
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Jan 30, 2023 21:18
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Honestly, Fukui taking things people always tried to handwave away as symbolism or one off occurrences explained by [some thing] and making them explicit is a big part of what I like about Unicorn and Narrative Lean into that stuff!
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Jan 31, 2023 01:19
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The visual side of exploring those themes is a self referential blowjob, unfortunately.
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Jan 31, 2023 01:30
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