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I wonder if the M777 falls in to an unfortunate hole; big enough calibre that it's a prize target but also big enough that it's way too slow to relocate. The self-propelled stuff avoids this by it's mobile nature, and L118/M118 by being small enough that it's practical to relocate frequently. So M777 being the the most practical high value target lancet gets to target frequently.
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Jan 28, 2023 12:40
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Pablo Bluth posted:I wonder if the M777 falls in to an unfortunate hole; big enough calibre that it's a prize target but also big enough that it's way too slow to relocate. The self-propelled stuff avoids this by it's mobile nature, and L118/M118 by being small enough that it's practical to relocate frequently. So M777 being the the most practical high value target lancet gets to target frequently. Yeah I think with drones and counter battery being a thing it seems that some attrition is inevitable unfortunately for this type of platform. One of the solution though is to make more of them.
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Jan 28, 2023 12:58
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The M777 isn't built at the moment, although apprently BAE have had some interest. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/10/12/bae-m777-production-ukraine/
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Jan 28, 2023 13:13
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Nenonen posted:There is evidence that Ukrainians smuggled a truckload of explosives to Kerch. You mean there's evidence Ukrainian government forces used an improvised weapon to attack an occupier supply line inside Ukrainian territory
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Jan 28, 2023 13:31
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NTRabbit posted:You mean there's evidence Ukrainian government forces used an improvised weapon to attack an occupier supply line inside Ukrainian territory You may have successfully spotted the joke they made, yes.
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Jan 28, 2023 13:34
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Pablo Bluth posted:I wonder how the anti-UAV problem will be solved. NATO tech over the last few decades has definitely tended towards Wunderwaffes in small numbers. but this problem definitely needs something that is going to be affordable enough to produce and maintain is large quantities. 30mm to 50mm autocannons are likely going to be the solution at the tactical unit level for low'flying, slow UACs like quadcopters. Mid-altitide UAVs like Orlan-10 are actually harder to solve for. They're so inexpensive that current surface to air missiles don't trade favorably in terms of cost. Again, autocannons may be the answer, but they would neee radar (which brings its own dangers) and need to have high velocity rounds to create a large enough dime at this altitudes. EW systems also seem effective so far, so that may also be an option. They require a lot of work to deconflict with friendly forces, though.
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Jan 28, 2023 14:24
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Perhaps the answer is air superiority uavs of a similar low cost to an Orlan, that you kamikaze in to whatever you want to down.
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Jan 28, 2023 14:30
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Ynglaur posted:30mm to 50mm autocannons are likely going to be the solution at the tactical unit level for low'flying, slow UACs like quadcopters. Hm, I thought these anti-drone cannons always need a radar anyway, to actually hit the target? The German Gepard apparently has even two radars. I'm not sure about the ammo but I thought some kind of programmable(?) airburst ammo would usually be used, not sure what you mean by "large enough dime"
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Jan 28, 2023 14:45
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Pablo Bluth posted:Perhaps the answer is air superiority uavs of a similar low cost to an Orlan, that you kamikaze in to whatever you want to down. Perhaps if they were autonomous and fed with biofuel and had self replicating capabilities…
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Jan 28, 2023 14:47
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Pablo Bluth posted:I wonder how the anti-UAV problem will be solved. NATO tech over the last few decades has definitely tended towards Wunderwaffes in small numbers. but this problem definitely needs something that is going to be affordable enough to produce and maintain is large quantities. I've pointed it out a few times, the long-term solution is radar-guided gun AA on every armored vehicle of any sort. US is currently doing a procurement program for replacement IFVs and later tanks, and having built-in mm-wave guided gun AA is a requirement. Either with the 50mm main gun doing AA natively, or an additional 30mm rws. More dakka in real life.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:19
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You may have successfully spotted the joke they made, yes. Given the posts on the last couple of pages I wasn't entirely sure the joke was intentional Pablo Bluth posted:Perhaps the answer is air superiority uavs of a similar low cost to an Orlan, that you kamikaze in to whatever you want to down. The US has an affordable (notionally $5k USD per) micromissile called NAVAIR Spike, designed with this question in mind, that could be fitted to low cost medium drones for that job e: It looks like the US has a bunch of micromissile or stuff like the Hydra rocket precision upgrade that can do the job for cheap, they just haven't put any money into buying any yet because they haven't needed any themselves yet. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jan 28, 2023 |
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Jan 28, 2023 15:20
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Pablo Bluth posted:Perhaps the answer is air superiority uavs of a similar low cost to an Orlan, that you kamikaze in to whatever you want to down. Or with little machine guns on them. WW1 dogfights but this time without people dying.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:27
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mobby_6kl posted:Or with little machine guns on them. WW1 dogfights but this time without people dying. Wait, I have something for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oazwTDeqF54 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 28, 2023 15:33
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Conflict zones in the future are going to be real bad for geese.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:39
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Pablo Bluth posted:Perhaps the answer is air superiority uavs of a similar low cost to an Orlan, that you kamikaze in to whatever you want to down. What you are describing is a guided missile (albeit a slow one). Currently, those are expensive. jaete posted:Hm, I thought these anti-drone cannons always need a radar anyway, to actually hit the target? The German Gepard apparently has even two radars. I'm not sure about the ammo but I thought some kind of programmable(?) airburst ammo would usually be used, not sure what you mean by "large enough dime" Typo: "dime" should be "dome." The current systems do use radar. I suspect that image recognition systems are also being evaluated. Airburst ammo is definitely an option, and is what the CIWS system use. Originally a point defense system for navy ships, the US put CIWS on the back of a flatbed to protect bases from mortar fire. It's apparently effective, though each round costs ~$7 USD. Tuna-Fish posted:I've pointed it out a few times, the long-term solution is radar-guided gun AA on every armored vehicle of any sort. US is currently doing a procurement program for replacement IFVs and later tanks, and having built-in mm-wave guided gun AA is a requirement. Either with the 50mm main gun doing AA natively, or an additional 30mm rws. More dakka in real life. I think you and I are probably following similar sources.  I do think that active radar is a significant downside. Thus my speculation about image recognition paired with good optics.In summary, there's no wunderwaffe solution to drones.
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Jan 28, 2023 15:47
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Laser weapons?
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Jan 28, 2023 16:01
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Probably some sort of sensor fusion solution for detection and tracking could be used. Unless the drone is fully autonomous, which I think most of these aren't, they're going to be transmitting video and other telemetry, which can also be detected.
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Jan 28, 2023 16:12
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Ynglaur posted:What you are describing is a guided missile (albeit a slow one). Currently, those are expensive.
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Jan 28, 2023 16:15
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyranger_30 That is where things are probably going right now. Especially the HEL variant. A laser effector would probably be much more effective against smaller drones than previous attempts to use them against other military targets.
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Jan 28, 2023 16:17
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Pablo Bluth posted:Is a missile still a missile if you swap the rocket motor for a propeller, remove all explosives, swap the tubular design for a fuselage and large wings, and replace with targetting technology with a remote pilot using a first person view camera to chase, harass and hopefully knock the target out the sky? That depends. Does it know where it isn't?
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Jan 28, 2023 16:19
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As you might know, one of the biggest independent Russian-language news media, Meduza, is now not just a foreign agent, but also an 'undesirable organisation'. This means that as much as sharing a link to one of their articles is a crime (a fine for the first offence, and real jail time for future offences). The same goes for donating to them, providing any comments to their journalists, and, of course, working for them. This is very similar to how Lukashenko handled TUT (now Zerkalo) in Belarus. You can in theory just read them on telegram or access their website using VPN, but if the police get on your case, they can always send a bunch of links from your phone and get you behind bars regardless. Just another fear tactic, but the one that has proved its effectiveness to an extent. https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/01/26/russia-has-outlawed-meduza There are also some something else going on at the same time on the other side of political spectrum. Coincidence or not, but Igor Strelkov (Girkin), is under friendly fire from the most visible far right personalities in Russia. Strelkov says he wanted to give another try joining the military, and that Wagner promised to accept him, but at the last minute he decided against it due to potentially hostile work environment. Rogozin, Milonov, and even Prigozhin himself in unison call him a coward and a liar, doubting his military credentials and how involved he really was in conflicts in Bosnia, Moldova, and Ukraine. Some selected quotes below Rogozin posted:Girkin, enough talk, come to the frontline. It's Bosnia all over again. I remember how back then you always thought up excuses why you couldn't do your job. Never made it to the front then, so here's your chance. Show us you're a real man. Milonov posted:You can't expect to see that insect who goes by the nickname Strelkov anywhere on the frontline. I am not exactly a renowned fighter myself, to put it bluntly, but I have been at the front for a long time, doing good for the country, fighting the Ukronazis and crushing the Ukrops along with our boys. And this dummy Strelkov is yapping something on the internet from the comfort of his sofa. Of course he's not going anywhere, while the heroes from the Wagner group are getting new victories. Strelkov, on the other hand, will be forgotten once and for all, as such wretches have always been forgotten. Prigozhin posted:[Strelkov is welcome to join], he'll just have to go through the standard interview with the military council. [...] There are a couple of dozens of officers on the council who are very cross with him. They'll ask him, why the gently caress did you come here, you piece of poo poo? And then they'll ask him, why the gently caress did you surrender Sloviansk (in 2014), you bitch? Tell us how you took Akhmetov's money for that retreat. [...] His life won't probably end right there and then, but he'll have to answer all these questions. Previously I theorised that Strelkov's apparent untouchability, despite his sharp criticisms of the high command and Putin himself, was due to Kremlin's understanding that he was the only voice the far right 'patriots' listened to, and Strelkov was used to vent their frustration about Russia's military failures, while maintaining overall support of the war. Now that Prigozhin, who is Putin's close friend, has established himself in a similar role (sans criticising Putin), Strelkov might actually be in trouble. Case in point, Moskovskij Komsomolets's tabloidy headline for the story is 'Prigozhin DESTROYS Strelkov With One Sentence', and the article is full of barbs about Strelkov's critical view of Putin. https://www.mk.ru/politics/2023/01/27/prigozhin-unichtozhil-strelkova-odnim-predlozheniem.html
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Jan 28, 2023 17:09
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AP story on Ukraine learning how to repair NATO gear https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-politics-united-states-government-poland-ad79017414930b328094ee124dcea5c8
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Jan 28, 2023 17:14
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Small housekeeping update for the thread – I have resigned from being a D&D moderator.
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Jan 28, 2023 17:27
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Small housekeeping update for the thread – I have resigned from being a D&D moderator. I don't think I really followed any of your other threads, but you did a pretty solid job of keeping this one on track. Here's hoping that it probably no longer needs aggressive moderation, now that it's no longer a hot topic, but thanks for being the volunteer internet janitor for a year on this.
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Jan 28, 2023 17:41
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Thank you for your service o7
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Jan 28, 2023 17:49
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Who will probe me now when I post about nukes though?
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Jan 28, 2023 17:51
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Small housekeeping update for the thread – I have resigned from being a D&D moderator.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:06
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Small housekeeping update for the thread – I have resigned from being a D&D moderator. Thank you very much for your work in this thread, it's appreciated. 
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Jan 28, 2023 18:13
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Pablo Bluth posted:I wonder if the M777 falls in to an unfortunate hole; big enough calibre that it's a prize target but also big enough that it's way too slow to relocate. Its a towed gun but for what it is (as a 155mm cannon) its super light and quick to set up or take down and move. Plenty of vids on Ukrainians or Americans doing this in minutes or less. Here is a vid where they do it in a bit over a minute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRdQKpdMIZQ The biggest issue with setting them up and taking them down quickly is crew training. Which when they were first introduced was a issue since they didn't have much time to train. But as you can see from the vid they've gotten fast at it. SPG's will still be faster at shoot and scoot but I don't think you could justify calling a M777 slow either. What some of the SPG's (ie PZH2000, Krab) will have that a M777 won't is armor to protect it, the ammo, and its crew. That is a conscious trade off you make with a towed gun vs armored SPG though to save on weight and cost. Other factors are probably the reason why some getting found and blown up in the field (ie. sympathizers or spies giving away their position, the Ukrainians being highly aggressive with pushing them forward and putting them at risk of being found out by spotter drones, etc).
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Jan 28, 2023 18:14
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Saladman posted:I don't think I really followed any of your other threads, but you did a pretty solid job of keeping this one on track. Here's hoping that it probably no longer needs aggressive moderation, now that it's no longer a hot topic, but thanks for being the volunteer internet janitor for a year on this. That’s more or less the conclusion of my recent reflections, yeah. The thread still can have its moments, but by and large it self-moderates itself like most other established D&D threads, and I don’t see myself adding much to it as its “Idiot Emperor” specifically as of late. Given some competing priorities for my leisure time, going back to  made much more sense to me than some weird arrangement where I sit on the buttons but try to care less - while I’ll miss the opportunity to regale the rest of the mods with uninvited 5am essays about the history of vinegar consumption in Latvia, or the structural composition of sour cream aisles at our grocery stores, that would be a bad thing to do, in addition to me being too much of a tryhard to half-care about something.Antigravitas posted:Thank you for your service o7 SirTagz posted:Who will probe me now when I post about nukes though? Mr. Apollo posted:I’m sorry to see you go as I think you did a great job. However, I understand the amount of time the job takes up and the unnecessary stress it puts on people. Just Another Lurker posted:Thank you very much for your work in this thread, it's appreciated. Thanks, folks. o7 Also, I’m not planning to stop posting, even though I’m definitely not doing any more news summaries for a while at least.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:16
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Back to the thread topic, Poland has announced 74 tank package for Ukraine. 14 Leopards, 30 PT-91, 30 undetermined. https://tvpworld.com/65897999/poland-to-tankup-ukraine-with-more-than-leopards
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Jan 28, 2023 18:24
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I wonder what the undetermined are? The last of their T-72s? The Economist this week had a nice graph on the Leopard supply: 
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Jan 28, 2023 18:39
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Back to the thread topic, Poland has announced 74 tank package for Ukraine. 14 Leopards, 30 PT-91, 30 undetermined. https://tvpworld.com/65897999/poland-to-tankup-ukraine-with-more-than-leopards I’m a little unclear how many tanks we (Poland) have in service, but we’ll have given away quite a substantial percent of what we had, right?
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Jan 28, 2023 18:41
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TK-42-1 posted:Perhaps if they were autonomous and fed with biofuel and had self replicating capabilities… Oh god no, Elon Musk is even worse than Ted Faro.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:41
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Blut posted:I wonder what the undetermined are? The last of their T-72s? It is a good list but slightly OCD triggering that the German order of model are in reverse to the other countries.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:50
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Rinkles posted:I’m a little unclear how many tanks we (Poland) have in service, but we’ll have given away quite a substantial percent of what we had, right? I can’t find a good source right now either, but it looks like Poland had as of the start of 2022 somewhere between 500 and 900 tanks, having now given away 300 or so with unclear mix of models, and stock of origin (active equipment vs refurbished equipment vs equipment bought elsewhere). If I had to guess, the number is close to 500 than 900, and Poland has given away the vast majority of Soviet/-derived tanks it had.
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Jan 28, 2023 19:05
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Electric Wrigglies posted:It is a good list but slightly OCD triggering that the German order of model are in reverse to the other countries. If I had to guess, it's probably because the other countries are still using their 2A4s, but ours are probably instead all in storage, and rusted into uselessness. We have them, but gently caress knows if any of them could still be made ready in an emergency. 
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Jan 28, 2023 19:11
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:would definitely appreciate some clarity on the u.n. classification being referred to, it doesn't seem like you're referencing the corruption perception index or any of the other lists that pop up with a quick google search, and going through the u.n. odc publications isn't turning up anything that looks like a list or index
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Jan 28, 2023 19:21
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Poland has probably determined that the immediate threat of Russian invasion is miniscule, so it's fine to give their old tanks to Ukraine immediately and risk having an under strength tank force for a couple of years while the K2s come in from Korea and HSW gets set up to build more.
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Jan 28, 2023 19:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Laser weapons? But not sure if they have enough range. Also IIRC laser weapons still have problems with weather.
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