|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Why is it important to own that place? Might have rare resources or be strategically important. I its on the Cardassian border, i can see the desire to put a listening post there or a fleet to limit or deter Cardassian expansion lt might just be a really pleasant and fertile class M planet you don't have to take the time to terraform.
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 06:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 14:23 |
|
|
MikeJF posted:Nah, the situation with the colonies and then the Maquis wasn't even conceived of then. The Cardassians were going to be one-off. In the first episode with the Bajorans it was going to be the Romulans occupying them before they thought of bringing back the Cardassians. I have to give props for the writers for taking this episode and running with it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 06:36
|
|
|
I kinda think of that as more the Cardassians ending up hijacking most of the vibes and themes that TNG originally intended for the Romulans. It seemed like the writers were always nervous about dealing with the Romulans because they're important and a big threat, but nobody ever wanted to pull the trigger on the threat or flesh out too many details about this weird Vulcan offshoot group, so most of their place in TNG was looming menacingly, and then a new one-off episode introduces this new species with new modern makeup techniques that didn't need retconning to look more modern and don't have all this baggage, and they've got their own tenuous peace with the Federation, and the writers really took to that and poured out so many more details than they would for Romulan stories. Before you know it, they have the Bajorans and Ensign Ro, and the Cardassian appearances in season 6 and 7 were so much more meaty than the Romulans', and then DS9 cements the Cardassians as the main alien power for the entire show. There were a number of other minor races that probably had a similar potential to take off like maybe the Talarians (and ones that were meant to but kinda failed like the Ferengi), and then Voyager would later center around the Borg, but the way the Cardassians took off was impressive. And then Voyager went to another galaxy and so many other series were prequels, and I guess Cardassians didn't have enough pull for them to get cheated in like so many other races.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 10:01
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I kinda think of that as more the Cardassians ending up hijacking most of the vibes and themes that TNG originally intended for the Romulans. It seemed like the writers were always nervous about dealing with the Romulans because they're important and a big threat, but nobody ever wanted to pull the trigger on the threat or flesh out too many details about this weird Vulcan offshoot group, so most of their place in TNG was looming menacingly, and then a new one-off episode introduces this new species with new modern makeup techniques that didn't need retconning to look more modern and don't have all this baggage, and they've got their own tenuous peace with the Federation, and the writers really took to that and poured out so many more details than they would for Romulan stories. Before you know it, they have the Bajorans and Ensign Ro, and the Cardassian appearances in season 6 and 7 were so much more meaty than the Romulans', and then DS9 cements the Cardassians as the main alien power for the entire show. I can see that, they even have a similar all-seeing all-knowing intelligence service
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 11:37
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:I'mma go ahead and say after rewatching it like 5 to 7 times Voyager has kind of grown on me. I actually like it even when its real bad. Stockholm syndrome
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:23
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:I can see that, they even have a similar all-seeing all-knowing intelligence service Except that Andrew Robinson's Garak is way cooler and more badass than anyone in the Tal-Shiar.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 18:58
|
|
|
i've seen all of voyager and 6ish years later, the only stuff i really remember are night - great concept, should've been a two parter scorpion - seven of nine time year of hell - obvious reasons tuvix - the moral quandry then you have some stragglers where i don't remember where they come from exactly but: the doctor in the future episode, the frozen years episode which is the only time kim got to star, and some borg stuff towards the end. i think it's a very forgettable show almost by design.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
roomtone posted:i've seen all of voyager and 6ish years later, the only stuff i really remember are how could you forget robert picardo's false teeth 
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:I can see that, they even have a similar all-seeing all-knowing intelligence service Had. You may recall that the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order got 31 flavors of obliterated in the Omarion Nebula.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
the reason why the cardassians are better than the romulans or most other antagonists: they just keep casting rock solid actors in episodic roles where they get a lot of good material to work with, usually at least one speech, and then they bring them back because there were so good and voila, you have the cardassians
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:There is no real world equivlent to "settling somewhere no one owns, then the land your're on gets swapped to hostile power" in real life. There's one: the Falklands had no indigenous population before the British found them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:33
|
|
|
The Cardassians are a nice counterpoint to the Romulans because they're all about being overt instead of covert -- they love big dramatic shows of force, cruising around in big ships shaped like their own logo and delivering monologues to anyone who'll listen. They're great fodder for drama compared to a group that would rather avoid all interaction with outsiders if at all possible
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:38
|
|
|
roomtone posted:the reason why the cardassians are better than the romulans or most other antagonists: they just keep casting rock solid actors in episodic roles where they get a lot of good material to work with, usually at least one speech, and then they bring them back because there were so good and voila, you have the cardassians Romulans are also mostly just evil vulcans, and don't really have their own identity. Where with Cardassians, if feels like they actually have a culture, as messed up as it is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 19:40
|
|
|
roomtone posted:the reason why the cardassians are better than the romulans or most other antagonists: they just keep casting rock solid actors in episodic roles where they get a lot of good material to work with, usually at least one speech, and then they bring them back because there were so good and voila, you have the cardassians I was about to post something about the Cardassians being a mid tier race, but with some absolutely amazing characters (Garak may be the best Trek character overall). But then i got annoyed at my phone not being able to spell Cardassians with a C and also they did flesh out the actual culture enough to not just be evil Nazis, but also very keen on family and weird literature.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0kkCvz6wC0 Lego Deep Space Nine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2023 23:59
|
|
|
Unrelated to the above, but do the Star Trek novels have a history of being Not Good or is it just a mix of quality? Just heard about a Discovery series novel that had the Federation being made by hard men making hard choices that sounds like it would have been an good sci-fi novel in general but a spectacularly bad Star Trek novel. ( I should note that Discovery says multiple times that the ends do not justify the means - and at least three times in the first season alone. )
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 00:02
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:Unrelated to the above, but do the Star Trek novels have a history of being Not Good or is it just a mix of quality? They vary wildly. I'd say there are only a few that are genuinely good, but a fair number are fun little popcorn adventures. And then a whole pile of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 00:24
|
|
|
happyhippy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0kkCvz6wC0
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 00:27
|
|
|
Avery Bricks was right there smdh
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 01:58
|
|
|
happyhippy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0kkCvz6wC0 Just keep circlin'.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 03:01
|
|
|
Someone to Watch over Me is a real hilarious episode that has no high stakes whatsover and is all about Seven dating. There's some sort of B plot about religious aliens but the main story is just Seven dating which is good.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 03:28
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:Someone to Watch over Me is a real hilarious episode that has no high stakes whatsover and is all about Seven dating. There's some sort of B plot about religious aliens but the main story is just Seven dating which is good. great episode. the b plot deserves more credit - forehead-alien scott thompson on a bender, what's not to like
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 03:34
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:Unrelated to the above, but do the Star Trek novels have a history of being Not Good or is it just a mix of quality?
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 03:40
|
|
|
The only good novels are Shatnerverse novels
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 03:42
|
|
|
TengenNewsEditor posted:great episode. the b plot deserves more credit - forehead-alien scott thompson on a bender, what's not to like Yeah also it ended on a kind of bitter sweet note.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 03:48
|
|
|
The Shatner novels are trippy as gently caress, and basically Kirk superhero fan fiction. Some unique stories, but I'm not sure how many were his ideas and how many were his co-authors, the Reeves-Stevens'. He blew up the Enterprise-A in his first outing. By the end of his run he had Spock, McCoy and Scotty outshining the TNG/DS9 characters at every turn.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 05:04
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:They vary wildly. I'd say there are only a few that are genuinely good, but a fair number are fun little popcorn adventures. And then a whole pile of poo poo. Read Diane Duane's stuff and wish they'd gone with her take on the Romulans. Her primary serieson the Enterprise has a Mary Sue-ish character but doesn't suffer for it. e. The whole interview with Andrew Robinson, this is a good watch, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqvl2hhFkko&t=3294s
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 05:44
|
|
|
Wee Bairns posted:The Shatner novels are trippy as gently caress, and basically Kirk superhero fan fiction. Some unique stories, but I'm not sure how many were his ideas and how many were his co-authors, the Reeves-Stevens'. Pretty much had them outshining the TNG characters from the moment they first appeared too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 06:16
|
|
|
Wee Bairns posted:The Shatner novels are trippy as gently caress, and basically Kirk superhero fan fiction. Some unique stories, but I'm not sure how many were his ideas and how many were his co-authors, the Reeves-Stevens'. Like a lot of plots involved stuff from the later TV shows that Shatner had no involvement in
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 06:44
|
|
|
I'm too lazy to do much searching, but I remember an article somewhere that went into their process for these books. Most of the major story beats are actually the Shat's, he came up with basic story beats and then the Reeves-Stevens filled in the rest.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 06:55
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:I have to imagine most of it was ghostwritten It was. The Shatnerverse books were all co-written by Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens based on ideas Shatner would yell at them over the phone. They were eventually hired to write actual episodes of Star Trek when Manny Coto brought them onboard for Enterprise's fourth season, writing five episodes including the show's informal finale, Terra Prime, because he was a fan of the Shatnerverse books. Or, somebody on the chain of command for Enterprise was at least. e: beaten
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 07:02
|
|
|
It doesn't really matter because the Star Trek novels are pale in comparison to the masterpieces of literature that is the TekWar series.
IShallRiseAgain fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Jan 29, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 07:10
|
|
|
IShallRiseAgain posted:It doesn't really matter because the Star Trek novels are pale in comparison to the masterpieces of literature that is the TekWar series. TekWar was also ghostwritten 
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 07:40
|
|
|
nine-gear crow posted:It was. The Shatnerverse books were all co-written by Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens based on ideas Shatner would yell at them over the phone. They were eventually hired to write actual episodes of Star Trek when Manny Coto brought them onboard for Enterprise's fourth season, writing five episodes including the show's informal finale, Terra Prime, because he was a fan of the Shatnerverse books. Or, somebody on the chain of command for Enterprise was at least. Right. The same goes for his "auto"biographies like Star Trek Memories and Movie Memories; they were ghostwritten after the writer met with Shatner (who, very famously, didn't even know how to check his email until ten years ago, which is why his daughter runs his entire online presence).
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 07:52
|
|
|
And on the topic of his ghostwriters the Reeves-Stevens, their novel Federation is among the best of the old novels, even if almost everything has since been rendered non-canon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 08:14
|
|
|
Wee Bairns posted:Most of the major story beats are actually the Shat's I automatically assumed "the Shat" was a Romulan title of some sort, and then my brain's pattern recognition kicked in and I went "oh, right".
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 08:21
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:I automatically assumed "the Shat" was a Romulan title of some sort, and then my brain's pattern recognition kicked in and I went "oh, right". Tal Shiat
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 10:11
|
|
|
IShallRiseAgain posted:It doesn't really matter because the Star Trek novels are pale in comparison to the masterpieces of literature that is the TekWar series. Jake Cardigan, with his sidekicks Bill Slippers and Cuppa Cocoa.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 11:04
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 12:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 14:23 |
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:Unrelated to the above, but do the Star Trek novels have a history of being Not Good or is it just a mix of quality? Before the novel continuity came about, there were a few standout books but much of it was licensed crap. The latter category was either actual garbage (one of the first books I read has a shuttle literally called the Nameme), or just unimportant filler written on the basis that Star Trek fans would buy Star Trek books regardless of the quality. Once the DS9 relaunch kicked off the novel continuity, things improved... somewhat, and it inspired them to relaunch the other series, too. The DS9 relaunch was pretty fun, generally better than the TNG relaunch and VOY relaunch, but it was also taking place earlier in the timeline. So when they had the big Borg invasion crossover (Destiny) and decided all the novels would be on one timeline going forward, DS9 suffered; they had to jump ahead like three years and a bunch of stuff happened off-page, beginning a streak of DS9 and its people getting the short end of the stick that lasted pretty much until the end of the continuity. Sticking to the novel continuity meant there was a lot less in the "unimportant filler" group. They tried to at least have good character stuff and interesting plots in the more episodic books, and particularly to take advantage of the lack of need for a makeup and special effects budget; Riker's Titan has a ton of crew that probably would not work on screen. But there were still some cases of "good idea, badly written," "fine idea, wrong author for it," or unmitigated garbage, those books just happened to cover important plot points instead of being irrelevant. I'd say if you took some average TNG/DS9/VOY TV seasons and cut out the episodes that were too bland to be memorable, you'd generally have a good sense of the rough quality of the novel continuity: some good and some fun stuff that I genuinely recommend, but also some abject poo poo. And then, like FlamingLiberal mentioned, they killed off the novel continuity and went back to books that don't relate to each other, or do so only barely, so it doesn't matter if they contradict one of them on-screen, and I haven't picked up any of them but I also haven't heard good things.
|
|
#
?
Jan 29, 2023 15:33
|
|
