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Twincityhacker posted:Then Thirteen came along but they kept wanting to make Doctor Who, but the Timelords were dead so they couldn't grant more regeneration cycles, so it was time to pull some rabbits out of the hat to make everything the Doctor said true - to his knowledge. "Secretly not Gallyfriran" is certianly a way to go about it. Maybe not the best, but it does make sure that the Doctor wasn't lying to everyone all the time about everything. didn't they already fix that with the time lords sending extra regeneration through the crack to the eleventh doctor when he was at trenzalore or whatever it was in his final episode, they didn't need whatever the gently caress this was
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Jan 30, 2023 00:31
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I had one of these (I think it had DS9 on the cover) and the story was explicit about Troi being from Milwaukee
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Jan 30, 2023 00:31
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Arivia posted:didn't they already fix that with the time lords sending extra regeneration through the crack to the eleventh doctor when he was at trenzalore or whatever it was in his final episode, they didn't need whatever the gently caress this was Yeah 11 was actually 13 thanks to the War Doctor and 10 loving up and using two lives. Capaldi was the start of a new cycle. Jodi’s lore weirdness was just Chris Chibnall being a bad writer.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:36
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Arivia posted:didn't they already fix that with the time lords sending extra regeneration through the crack to the eleventh doctor when he was at trenzalore or whatever it was in his final episode, they didn't need whatever the gently caress this was I have no idea, my nerd brain doesn't grasp onto Doctor Who mintutia like it does with other fandoms. I've just had a ton of meta about Doctor Who told me, from both Classic Who and Nu Who, for over two decades by friends so I just have the highlights of the controversies. My favorite is still "Galltfryians are artifically created on genetic looms, and don't sexually repoduce and just look down on sex in general even just for fun" which gained a lot of sway in fandom so when Ten had sex with Mandam Pompadour, there was a lot of angry yelling.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:43
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I read all of these as a kid. I remember nothing but the art of the coffee cup saucers.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:47
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HD DAD posted:Yeah 11 was actually 13 thanks to the War Doctor and 10 loving up and using two lives. Capaldi was the start of a new cycle. I haven't even seen anything of Jodie's run past like Demons of the Punjab and even I know that you basically can't realistically call the Doctors by their previously assumed numbers any more because Chibnall stuck his dick in the lore that badly. Shame that Jodie Whittaker was so attached to the hip with him as a showrunner, because if she'd stayed on for a season or two with RTD as showrunner instead it might have saved her run as the Doctor in people's minds.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:08
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It's funny, the thing that bothers me most about SNW is the upscaling of the size of the ship, because it means that it no longer... slots in, to everything else. It can't be coherent with the refit and with having a size as compared to the ships around it and as part of a lineage of ships. You can't really take out TOS and put in SNW without the size clashing and that leaves this nebulous question of what is retconned and how.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:08
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MikeJF posted:It's funny, the thing that bothers me most about SNW is the upscaling of the size of the ship, because it means that it no longer... slots in, to everything else. It can't be coherent with the refit and with having a size as compared to the ships around it and as part of a lineage of ships. You can't really take out TOS and put in SNW without the size clashing and that leaves this nebulous question of what is retconned and how. Exact scale in Star Trek has always been a ridiculous thing to worry about and a constantly moving target anyway. I rewatched the Battle of Sector 001 in last night from First Contact in 4K and while the Enterprise hero shot as it flies past the Defiant is one of the best bits of starship cinematography in the whole drat franchise, it looks like the Enterprise-E is the size of a Star Destroyer compared to the Defiant, the scale is THAT wonky. E: It's kinda funny because they redo nearly the same shot in the intro to Star Trek: Armada, only this time they get the scale differential between the Sovereign class and the smaller Federation ships right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTBGLot3Wo&t=207s nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 01:11
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Is the SNW Enterprise supposed to be THAT much bigger? I know the Discovery is actually pretty large though.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:19
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Visual has always been messy and something to ignore, but there's always been an on-paper size that's been relatively consistent and a major part of the way the world works.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:21
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wesleywillis posted:Kirk and Spock love child i hate star trek
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Jan 30, 2023 01:21
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I have a much bigger problem with the size of the JJPrise than the new SNW one. That thing is massive and also I never liked the way the front deflector juts out from the rest of the hull.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:22
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nine-gear crow posted:Exact scale in Star Trek has always been a ridiculous thing to worry about and a constantly moving target anyway. I rewatched the Battle of Sector 001 in last night from First Contact in 4K and while the Enterprise hero shot as it flies past the Defiant is one of the best bits of starship cinematography in the whole drat franchise, it looks like the Enterprise-E is the size of a Star Destroyer compared to the Defiant, the scale is THAT wonky. Armada remains my 2nd favourite trek game. The OG Starfleet Command is my #1 by far. I would kill someone for a modern remake of it.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:22
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FlamingLiberal posted:Is the SNW Enterprise supposed to be THAT much bigger? I know the Discovery is actually pretty large though. Here's the diff  FlamingLiberal posted:I have a much bigger problem with the size of the JJPrise than the new SNW one. That thing is massive and also I never liked the way the front deflector juts out from the rest of the hull. That I don't care about because it's not meant to shrink to half the size in a few years as part of the refit or maybe the refit is twice the size it's been up to now and maybe it's not actually smaller than the Excelsior I dunno?
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Jan 30, 2023 01:23
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I'd say there's a difference between the 'relative' scale in some individual shots, which is largely up to the director, and the established scale of the ship. The Sovereign being shown as relatively large in a shot in First Contact doesn't change the established/designed size of the model of the ship. I mean if we take that shot as canon, given the relative size of the Defiant, DS9, and the Galaxy-class, the Sovereign is...frankly ridiculous large. It's like taking the Elevator Dimension as canon for the Discovery's size. it's sorta like how some writers have a better grasp of the scale of space than others. There's a TNG? episode where they talk about how much of a problem it is that something is 50,000 kilometers inside the Cardassian Border and its like lmao what, no. 50,000km is basically touching in space, its almost impossible to even figure out what side of an arbitrary interstellar border two points 50,000km are even on, it's a tiny fraction of a transporters range, etc. I seem to recall a thing where people decided the TOS enterprise was just too small for what it supposedly had, also.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:34
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nine-gear crow posted:Exact scale in Star Trek has always been a ridiculous thing to worry about and a constantly moving target anyway. I rewatched the Battle of Sector 001 in last night from First Contact in 4K and while the Enterprise hero shot as it flies past the Defiant is one of the best bits of starship cinematography in the whole drat franchise, it looks like the Enterprise-E is the size of a Star Destroyer compared to the Defiant, the scale is THAT wonky. MikeJF posted:Here's the diff That's still way better than the stupidly giant JJ-Prise though.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:38
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The Defiant is one of the most infamously wrongly scaled ships in the entire series, nobody had a handle on that thing's sizeWee Bairns posted:And on the topic of his ghostwriters the Reeves-Stevens, their novel Federation is among the best of the old novels, even if almost everything has since been rendered non-canon. I remember that being one of the best old novels and a better Warp Drive origins story than First Contact ended up going with. I guess the only downside of that era before they turned the novels into an ongoing EU style thing is they had a few tics that tended to repeat a bit, like being overly referential and playing the "TOS and TNG, together at last... sike! They didn't quite meet, so the timeline and temporal laws are intact  " cardActual Satan posted:The best star trek novels are the ones written at the very beginning of each series where the authors have no idea where the show is going to go and you get some cool alternate universe takes on the shows. I remember one Peter David did at the beginning of DS9 with a crazy shape shifter battle through the whole station. I remember one of the earliest DS9 novels (maybe the second or third?) was about Odo and Quark waking up on the station three days into the future after some alien death squad had graphically slaughtered the entire crew and population, a little weirdly over the top for such an early entry in addition to all the characterization and details ended up being wildly off from the show proper.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:39
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Look, if they didn't make discoveryverse ships larger externally, they would only have space inside for maybe half of the modern auditorium sized bridges in them.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:42
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Knormal posted:The shot in First Contact did totally butcher the scale, but the Akira is supposed to be significantly bigger than the Defiant. The Defiant's only 4 1/2 decks tall, and that half only gets to in be in there because the MSD they show on screen all the time only has 4 decks, but they constantly refer to a deck 5 in dialogue. And based on that every single shot of the Defiant leaving DS9 is also completely screwed up, since it should be way smaller compared to DS9's habitat ring. I am fine with SNW being another reboot.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:44
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The main difference between the upsizing of the Enterprise in Discovery/SNW and it's upsizing in the Abrams movies is that the tv version is fine because it still looks good while that movie version looks goddamned hideous proportionally in addition to being Galaxy-class size for no good reason
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Jan 30, 2023 01:44
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Twincityhacker posted:Considering the amount of retconing Bergman era shows did to TOS, other era shows, and their own previous episodes, I think it will be fine. There was some ambiguity among TNG production staff as to just how much of TOS was in TNG's history. There's a tech memo where Rick Sternbach says something along the lines of "depending on whether or not the stellar breakaway process is real in TNG..." not "hey the ship can go back in time if they do a slingshot run." Astroman posted:Not just the costuming, but the sets (pretty much the entire interiors of the Enterprise) but probably a lot of story elements too. SNW is better but I bet if you looked there were many things mentioned in Discovery that retconned TOS. I've said this elsewhere but I genuinely think it would be better if SNW was deliberately set in an alternate timeline, specifically so that they can openly and freely do their own thing with the characters and not feel tied down to stuff like "but Nurse Chapel is supposed to be engaged to Roger Corman in a few years". There's nothing wrong with having alternate timelines, hell it's even explicitly established as a thing by TNG Parallels!
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Jan 30, 2023 01:45
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Star Trek ships are always the size the plot calls for and it’s very silly to make a big deal of it just for SNW. I mean how many identical but somehow different “types” of Klingon Birds of Prey have they had to invent just because the same model was shot with a completely different scale depending on which movie or show used it?
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Jan 30, 2023 01:45
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Star Trek ships are always the size the plot calls for and it’s very silly to make a big deal of it just for SNW. It's well known that Klingons stole their shipyards from another species and the only control they could figure out was the Scale slider
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Jan 30, 2023 01:47
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Star Trek ships are always the size the plot calls for and it’s very silly to make a big deal of it just for SNW. 
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Jan 30, 2023 01:53
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nine-gear crow posted:https://twitter.com/jazzleberrywhy/status/1619383408010072064 You know how at some conventions people have the actors read speeches and stuff? I would pay oodles of $$ to hear Patrick Stewart say this out loud. Seemlar posted:I remember that being one of the best old novels and a better Warp Drive origins story than First Contact ended up going with. I guess the only downside of that era before they turned the novels into an ongoing EU style thing is they had a few tics that tended to repeat a bit, like being overly referential and playing the "TOS and TNG, together at last... sike! They didn't quite meet, so the timeline and temporal laws are intact Yeah, and while a lot of the villain was recycled into the Reeves-Stevens script for the penultimate episodes of Enterprise as Paxton, the one from the novel was an epic, Khan level character.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:56
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https://twitter.com/startrekonpplus/status/1619861458371715072?s=46&t=z-rfwMN_9wvCW0dn_BE90A
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Jan 30, 2023 01:57
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Seemlar posted:The Defiant is one of the most infamously wrongly scaled ships in the entire series, nobody had a handle on that thing's size Yeah, its size varies hugely on the shot. It's ridiculously tiny (<50m) compared to the Lakota in Paradise Lost but looks much bigger (150-200m) when docked with DS9. Although, since the scale of DS9 is quite inconsistent too that doesn't really say much. Still, at least the Defiant is consistently described and treated as a small, cramped ship so it doesn't really matter that much. Not like Discovery and the turbolift dimension. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:There was some ambiguity among TNG production staff as to just how much of TOS was in TNG's history. There's a tech memo where Rick Sternbach says something along the lines of "depending on whether or not the stellar breakaway process is real in TNG..." not "hey the ship can go back in time if they do a slingshot run." IIRC it was a bit more than that. I think at one point in development TNG was intended as a soft reboot of TOS, just taking the general setting and not much more. Of course, that didn't last long as the second episode was a TOS rehash.
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Jan 30, 2023 02:05
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Honestly, I wish TNG had revisited some of the settlements and planets from the TOS era. Whatever became of Tyree and his people's fight with the Hill People (the closest we got was 'Too Short A Season', which is not great). What happened to the Scalosians after Kirk and Spock found a "cure" for the speeding up and just left them alone? I get TNG wanted to forge its own path, but aside from a few guest appearances and allusions, TNG slammed the TOS book shut.
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Jan 30, 2023 02:07
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:Yeah, its size varies hugely on the shot. It's ridiculously tiny (<50m) compared to the Lakota in Paradise Lost but looks much bigger (150-200m) when docked with DS9. Although, since the scale of DS9 is quite inconsistent too that doesn't really say much. Still, at least the Defiant is consistently described and treated as a small, cramped ship so it doesn't really matter that much. Not like Discovery and the turbolift dimension. I’ve never bought the idea that TNG and TOS were ever once not considered to be the exact same continuity, since when TNG aired in 1987 we’d already had four pretty successful TOS movies and McCoy himself showed up in the pilot. It just seems like folks get that idea from a single internal memo and the reuse of a couple Phase II scripts/concepts. It’s not like Battlestar or something where the original show had been largely forgotten by the public by the time new one premiered.
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Jan 30, 2023 02:12
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CLAM DOWN posted:i hate star trek Could have been named "Kock".
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Jan 30, 2023 02:13
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Astroman posted:You know how at some conventions people have the actors read speeches and stuff? I would pay oodles of $$ to hear Patrick Stewart say this out loud. And to think at least one lucky son of a bitch out there actually DID get to hear him say that at one point.
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Jan 30, 2023 02:20
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nine-gear crow posted:https://twitter.com/jazzleberrywhy/status/1619383408010072064 Not gonna lie, its kind of heartwarming to know that terrible erotic fanart has existed since the usenet days
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Jan 30, 2023 02:22
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Timby posted:The only TNG book I recall, beyond Q-Squared and Vendetta, is some weird-rear end novel where these clay creatures called pseudos or something take over the ship and Data somehow saves the day via Data bullshit. The TNG book I most clearly recall was A Rock and a Hard Place. Riker gets detached from the Enterprise to go to some cold-rear end harsh climate colony and is replaced a guy named Quentin Stone, who was apparently so bad-rear end that he beat the Kobyashi Maru simulation without cheating. So, he'd be a total "Marty Sue" or whatever except for having the galaxy's worst case of Prime Directive-related PTSD. The TOS book I most clearly recall was Enterprise: The First Adventure which managed to retroactively make that one episode where Kirk attacks Janice Rand extra creepy by making her 16 years old due to some weird relativistic travel thing. She was also a refugee from some hell-planet who joined Starfleet to pay for her brothers to go to school. It was an interesting story that just didn't really fit what we know about the Federation.
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Jan 30, 2023 02:41
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Astroman posted:Yeah, some definitely tread in the weird space where canon and history and character backstory hadn't been fleshed out, especially the 70s and 80s ones. Where you didn't even know what year TOS was set in, or who Jim Kirk's father was, or what the Klingons were supposed to be. Quality is a mixed bag. Some are licensed fanfiction, others are great but ultimately decanonized "What Ifs?" since nothing that isn't on screen is real. Star Trek has had that rule all along, so the more the shared universe run of novels went on a few years ago, the more their stuff was decanonized by the endless prequel series, which is no doubt why they gave up on it. Which is too bad, because some of their really original ideas, like the Vanguard series, were great. That's pretty much all franchises. The longer they've run and the more they've sprawled, the more the present writers of whatever is currently being put out will have to pick things here and there to retcon to make room for themselves. The only way to escape is when you explicitly have separate canons for different works within the franchise, but even then, if any of those branches get too long with too many writers going too weird, there'll be some kind of retcons at some point. And even then, decanonized content will always wait in the wings to be ready for being pulled back up and reintroduced. The advantage of writing in a franchise is the ability to build on previous work. From an audience perspective, whatever the current runners of a franchise decide is canon or not doesn't matter at all, you always have free reign to decide which stories you care about and which you don't, and from that build up your own internal canon. Even feel free to throw in elaborate extrapolations or fanfic. Noncanon works can work in synergy with the rest of the franchise to boost audience engagement. Internal production rules don't matter when you're on the outside. I kinda like the theory that the changing canon and timeline of Star Trek are the result of constant interference with the past, but the absolute worst thing you can do when running a big franchise is stop all the action and waste the audience's time by bothering them about establishing what is and isn't canon (which was what DC comics's constant Crises are about). The part of the audience who really cares already knows or can guess the internal rules, and the part that doesn't care will continue not caring, and neither will appreciate having to set through a bunch of internal sorting.
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Jan 30, 2023 02:49
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What are birds of prey? We just don't know.
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Jan 30, 2023 03:14
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I disagree. I think one of Star Trek's strengths has been the strength of its setting and continuity, and that strength is directly correlated to the strength of its fan community. Fans may have different interpretations of the material and take their head/fan canon different places, but they're all ultimately connected back to the same roots. It's what let fan communities proliferate even before the easy communication of the Internet. When you stop giving a poo poo about continuity you start fragmenting your community and fragmenting those connections. I think a lack of concern for canon and continuity ultimately weakens the setting. I mean, that's how you *get* the Elevator Dimension. I think people who don't care about canon or continuity don't care about things making sense in general. The writer apparently didn't give a poo poo that it made no sense in a spaceship, let alone in Star Trek; the director apparently thought would make the coolest background for their action scene; and not one other person in authority gave enough of a poo poo to say 'No, this is dumb and makes no sense.' The thing is you can get away with not giving a poo poo for a long time, but eventually the lack of guardrails leads you to go completely over the edge. Which is not to say anyone wants Comic Book Store Guy running the franchise. But it's not actually hard to write stories that make sense and fit into the setting, and then bring those stories to the screen in a way that works. Wrath of Khan was written by a guy who didn't know poo poo about Star Trek and there's lots of minor details that are wrong, but noone cares; the movie's pretty good and the movie makes sense in terms of itself and in terms of Star Trek. Star Trek is in some ways uniquely easy to write for in this regard, being a future where the possibility of technology is almost limitless and godlike powers are canon; that people screw it up anyway is frustrating.
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Jan 30, 2023 03:21
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nine-gear crow posted:Exact scale in Star Trek has always been a ridiculous thing to worry about and a constantly moving target anyway. I rewatched the Battle of Sector 001 in last night from First Contact in 4K and while the Enterprise hero shot as it flies past the Defiant is one of the best bits of starship cinematography in the whole drat franchise, it looks like the Enterprise-E is the size of a Star Destroyer compared to the Defiant, the scale is THAT wonky. what the hell is happening at 3:48 though?
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Jan 30, 2023 03:34
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Nullsmack posted:what the hell is happening at 3:48 though? weaponized transporter accident
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Jan 30, 2023 03:36
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What is the best-looking ship of all time? I’m very partial to the Fed approach of saucer/two warp nacelles, as long as the ship doesn’t look like it has completely let itself go and become morbidly obese, like the Excelsior class. I also dig the OG Romulan warbird. But even after all these years and all these different ships, I still have to go with the old-school Klingon D7 battlecruiser. It just looks mean, like it is built to destroy, and means business.
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Jan 30, 2023 03:44
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Nullsmack posted:what the hell is happening at 3:48 though? <technobabble>
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