|
Cleretic posted:I mean, at the end of the day Emet-Selch is such a fascist shithead that he invented in-universe fascism as a means to an end. Of course he drew the conditions of what counts as 'True Humanity and Civilization' to be exactly his people and none of those he considers 'lesser'. Declaring the Sundered to be lesser is just the biologically racist parallel to the cultural racism of his Amaurot superiority. The entire point of Garlemald was to be as cruel and painful as possible and inevitably collapse. That's why he chose fascism. "I need something that sucks rear end and is violent and will destroy itself given time. Oh I know, Fascist Rhetoric." isn't the thought of a true believer in that ideology. Like I know he did bad things and you, by your own accounts over the years, didn't pay attention or give anything involving him an honest reading, but you could at least like...not lazily conflate every bad thing into one.
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 02:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 05:42 |
|
|
It's also not like Emet's belief patterns either way would make the Garlean "project" any better or more moral. Dude created a misery machine; does it really matter if he actually believed in its abhorrent ideology or was just playing Civ?
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 02:54
|
|
|
SirSamVimes posted:he invented fascism because it is a disastrous catastrophe of government literally designed to fail and cause chaos Yeah, that's not exactly better, and I would argue is in fact worse in a few ways. But it should be noted that he himself believes in and professes in a lot of the less tangible elements of fascism; the glorification of a departed golden age, elevation of the in-group and murderous dehumanization of the out-group, promotion of violence, and so on. I look at the way Emet-Selch acts, and I don't see someone who exactly abhors the ideology he passed on to the Garleans. He has much the same outlook on the world, he just has a different idea of what race and society is the 'right' one, and commits a different scale of violence.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 03:03
|
|
|
Antivehicular posted:It's also not like Emet's belief patterns either way would make the Garlean "project" any better or more moral. Dude created a misery machine; does it really matter if he actually believed in its abhorrent ideology or was just playing Civ? It is when your argument is that he did or embodied it, especially given who is making that argument and their history of either just ignoring the text or misreading it to make incredibly off base statements. Seriously, just click that ? button and see how many reads or predictions made in the thread that were just directly refuted by the text, let alone subtext, of the game. I'm not giving benefit of the doubt. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jan 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 03:08
|
|
|
The thing that separates Emet in a lot of ways is that he comes from a culture where "destroy and remake" was absolutely something considered a reasonable thing to do to 'lesser' beings in the interests of making them better, unless you're Hermes. His plan is horrible and painful but from an objective outside observer viewpoint he's functionally just trying to fix something that is broken. If he had succeeded he could have viewed it as a difficult but necessary way to fix things or at least excused that, which at least a good portion of his demigod culture would probably have understood. However Emet isn't dispassionate and can't actually be. He cloaks himself in the guise of being tsundere as hell but he also clearly has a genuinely caring and compassionate side. He genuinely feels bad for Hermes and recognizes the pain of his job, Azem and Hyd both seem to genuinely consider him a friend and bully him into helping out on what seems to be a regular basis, and we're basically shown that he genuinely and wholeheartedly tries to view things another way but at the end of the day he can't because the tragedy and pain of loss is too overwhelming for him. So he has to go all-in on adhering to the ways of the Ancients because otherwise he's doing horrifying things to innocent people. (And he even acknowledges that he seems like a monster when you tell past Emet about it.) Emet, at the end of the day, wants to fix things in the way his people fixed things. However that act does have a mental and emotional consequence to it that he abhors but since he is the only true Ancient left (Lahabrea being this insane loving mess and Elidibus being effectively a primal) he has to either give up everything he ever knew or bear that cost entirely alone. And understandably it absolutely wrecked his poo poo the more he had to do it and by the end he's a hollow broken man who commits atrocities because either he keeps it up and wins or the horrors he was responsible for ended up being for absolutely nothing. I think saying he has the Garlean Idealology kind of misses what he actually is, especially by that point in life. He isn't a true believer. He just wants to go back to days when people didn't die of illnesses or live short 'broken' lives. Varus is a true believer but Emet Selch just wanted to go back to before tragedy happened. It also happens that the only way he can do that (or thinks he can) is by causing horrific apocalypses because they never found any other way to rejoin a world and it probably genuinely isn't possible.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 03:22
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:The entire point of Garlemald was to be as cruel and painful as possible and inevitably collapse. That's why he chose fascism. okay folks it's time to go dnd and break out our eco
seems pretty open and shut to me (this is a joke) anyways emet isn't a card-carrying fascist, though he does believe in a lot of bullshit about cultural superiority and the survival of the fittest and fitness to rule (sorry, fitness for "stewardship of the star") that unsurprisingly evokes fascism for many people. what he really is though is a sad little man who lets his emotions guide him down a path that his moral intuition abhors, and unable to reconcile them he is trapped in stasis for eternity. any reasoning he offers is just a post-hoc excuse to save face and quell his own cognitive and emotional dissonance. if he had any kind of remotely intelligible ideology beyond immense unending world-shattering grief he'd probably be a lot happier and far more functional (nidhogg is much the same but for different magic fantasy reasons). Valentin fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jan 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 03:31
|
|
|
Valentin posted:[*]"Newspeak". "rejoining" instead of calamity, "ascian" instead of bringer of chaos, "etheirys" instead of hydaelyn. classic.[/list] This one was actually p. funny.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 03:40
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:This one was actually p. funny. I had a really good chuckle at "Appeal to a frustrated middle class" myself.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 06:10
|
|
|
[Lalafel] Adventurers, the ultimate petite bourgeoisie.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 06:25
|
|
|
i cant tell if this is sincere
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 08:03
|
|
|
You can be plenty evil without being a committed fascist. Emet-Selch, once restored to his right mind and able to meet his boyfriend again (I assume he fell out of Zodiark) settles down, renders aid, and acknowledges that we have succeeded where he failed. Zomborgon posted:This sounds like a great time to remind everyone that Azeyma is, in addition to her other roles, the Goddess of Inquiry.  So Hildy is Azeyma
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 08:24
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The thing that separates Emet in a lot of ways is that he comes from a culture where "destroy and remake" was absolutely something considered a reasonable thing to do to 'lesser' beings in the interests of making them better, unless you're Hermes. His plan is horrible and painful but from an objective outside observer viewpoint he's functionally just trying to fix something that is broken. If he had succeeded he could have viewed it as a difficult but necessary way to fix things or at least excused that, which at least a good portion of his demigod culture would probably have understood. Not to mention that as hosed up as Emet's role in Garlemald's culture was, the idea that Emet is solely responsible for Garlean militancy, bitterness, and desire to get one over on their oppressors is laughable and contrary to the text. Garleans have a bucketload of cultural trauma and rage, and while some of them go "you know, we didn't actually need or want to reconquer Corvos," a lot of them were absolutely ready to start guzzling the imperialism juice. The Empire is as much an organic manifestation of Garlean rage, ambition, and desire for a better life as it is Solus' personal handiwork - especially because Emet very explicitly does not have mind control powers, and actively takes pains to ensure he does not personally pull the trigger so much as hand often venal, awful, ambitious people a bunch of guns. Yes, we all know that's sophistry, and Emet does too on some level, but it's a necessary rationalization for the grieving man whose ideal world is one without pain, overwhelming strife or suffering to be able to carry out the only path by which he can even begin to dream of seeing his friends and loved ones again or bringing back a world without anguish. He needs to work through Sundered frailty and flaws, it's the only way he can live with himself - and in any case he ultimately subconsciously decides not to, metaphorically throws off his shirt and slugs it out with you bare-chested. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Jan 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 09:28
|
|
|
I was today years old when I realized that the EW role quests are assigned to the nations they are because the country in question has no jobs associated with that role Like yeah technically Gunbreaker starts in Gridania but they aren't from there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 09:51
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:I was today years old when I realized that the EW role quests are assigned to the nations they are because the country in question has no jobs associated with that role Ishgard does in fact have at least one caster, the Inquisition apparently teaches Fire Magic (Charibert). Also Limsa has Rogue, even if Ninja itself is not from there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 10:07
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:Ishgard does in fact have at least one caster, the Inquisition apparently teaches Fire Magic (Charibert). They're talking caster job; the only caster job that Ishgard had was a healer, as you might recall. And that healer went to Ala Mhigo with all the rest; a country with no healers tied to them. In fact only one healer had quests in Ala Mhigo, and it stuck pretty stringently to the border. I noticed this pretty much right when they announced where the role quests were going, and I still love it. It's an angle that makes the most sense with Gridania; it's got direct ties to the White Mage questline, but White Mages can't do it... because if Gridania instead had the healer questline then it would become 'White Mage 80-90 Questline (also some other guys got invited)'.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 10:30
|
|
|
Cleanse the taint, but this time you're playing as a tank
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 10:37
|
|
|
Blockhouse posted:I was today years old when I realized that the EW role quests are assigned to the nations they are because the country in question has no jobs associated with that role quote:Though we have made great strides in ensuring the safety of our people, we fear even our finest shinobi will be no match for this enemy, for it commands the skies of Doma.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 10:39
|
|
|
Hildibrand is Hercules *but with less child murder FuturePastNow fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Jan 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 13:53
|
|
|
That we know of.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 15:07
|
|
|
I know this is firmly in "Don't think about it" territory but I would very much like to know what bullshit my retainer is up to that he's getting poo poo from Elpis.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 18:03
|
|
|
Electric Phantasm posted:I know this is firmly in "Don't think about it" territory but I would very much like to know what bullshit my retainer is up to that he's getting poo poo from Elpis. It'd be fun if they had a "day in the life of a retainer" side questline at some point
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 18:06
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/surfacage/status/1371986997821075457
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 18:16
|
|
|
there should be retainer role quests and chocobo role quests imo
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 18:25
|
|
|
If we’re gonna go that far, then bring back the Path Companion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 18:34
|
|
|
7.0 starts with one of louisoix's little absolutely safe capsules reappearing in an unfamiliar land followed by the text "in the coming battle, you will fight as the unbelievably horny path companion from 1.0"
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 18:55
|
|
|
Valentin posted:7.0 starts with one of louisoix's little absolutely safe capsules reappearing in an unfamiliar land followed by the text "in the coming battle, you will fight as the unbelievably horny path companion from 1.0" One can hope One must
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 21:29
|
|
|
Chomposaur posted:It'd be fun if they had a "day in the life of a retainer" side questline at some point I think there's a FATE about a retainer that goes to the Diadem.
|
|
#
?
Jan 30, 2023 21:57
|
|
|
hopeandjoy posted:My Azem made moogles along with Venat and then also made Chocobos. Mine made cactuars, and made lunatenders (despite the lack of an actual moon) specifically for the purpose of making fun of Emet. "What creature is your Azem responsible for" is a fun little bit of lore to play with.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 15:07
|
|
|
Hm, just meandering thoughts, but it's been shown that at least a Sahaguin can have the Echo. Does from this follow that that Sahaguin at least is a 'recycled Ancient' soul, or is the Echo a skill that can be either triggered by a starfall IF you have a 'Recycled Ancient soul' or might it be that even souls without that trait can be taught. Anyway, that made me think of an alternate story where Azem/Hydaelin's chosen gets born as an Amaal'ja/Sahaguin/Kobold something else, and you suddenly get a totally different story. More about internally making the distinction between the god and the primal perhaps, with Gaius' capture of the primals being an opportunity to undermine the hold of the Tempered, and the City States being tense antagonists that you work together with at times? Hm, on that note, the Ixali are one of the races that do not have any kind of 'copy' in the First because they were created by the Empire of Aalag. Though I wonder, just because they were an engineered species doesn't mean the souls that get reborn in them couldn't have been Recycled Ancient's souls, right? (Not that New, non recycles Ancienet Souls are less valuable, but more of a 'what else could the WoL have been')
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 16:17
|
|
|
Presumably anything with a soul gifted from the lifestream could, indeed, have a recycled Ancient Shard.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 16:44
|
|
|
We don't know all of the different species that directly originated from the sundered ancients. Presumably at the very least any of them can have the echo / ancient soul fragment. There might be some rules whether other races or creatures could - you likely didn't get beasts or "lesser" life forms getting ancient souls in the ancient times, nor would you now. Ixali not being natural in that sense might not qualify, but there's no way to know for sure.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 17:06
|
|
|
On that train of thought, what about Dragon Souls. And related, Zenos' soul. Miggarsommr's soul apparently just goes with 'I'm not going to the livestream, just chilling' but what of the First Brood that died? Does their soul go back to the Dragon Planet's lifestream, or do they get recycled in Aetherys lifestream? Can Zenos' sould actually return to the lifestream from where he is now? An what about Dragons whose eggs were made on aetherys (First Brood presumably got their soul from Dragon Planet Aether) but does an Etheirys dragon have a soul that is made out of the same Aether as a Hyur or Sahaguin (including the possibility of recycled Ancient Soul)? or are Dragon souls different enough that even if they're made from the same Aether, they need to get either a newly minted dragon soul, or a recycled dragon soul? (Not sure if these questions have answers of course, just pondering out loud)
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 17:26
|
|
|
Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus got pulled over to Ultima Thule, and I think the implication is that they're returning to the lifestream. I imagine Zenos will too. Dragons seem a bit different though. Not even sure what to think about them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 17:31
|
|
|
Aether seems to have little distinction between sources- it can be discerned when bound to a soul but there's never been a moment where we go "ah this is distinctly dragon aether-" and aether tends to disperse and coalesce with the surroundings, in a variety of ways, rather than remaining separate. So I would guess that Middy's corporeal aether and most of Nidhogg got joined with our local stream. For the descendant dragons, I would have to say that "dragon souls are different because they're not one of us" just doesn't match up with how souls tend to be treated, on a thematic level.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
Midgard or Mr might be able to deliberately and successfully defy the cycle but that’s probably more that he’s ancient and mighty than that he’s a dragon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
I figure it's likely just a case of being aetherically powerful enough to resist the pull of the lifestream, coupled with draconic traits that somehow applies to the soul.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 18:04
|
|
|
True, and it helps that he's on first name basis with Hydaelin. But yeah, Hythlodaeus and Emet Selch seemed to at least have something which tied them to their Star of origin even if their souls were huge distances away. And Zero of course also found her way home after that whole thing. So what happens to the First Brood after their death is still a question mark. It's possible that a Lifestream actually has to have some force to 'attract' the Aether of souls back to itself. And the Dragon Planet being not as powerful in aether as Etheyris, and probably just physically dead probably also means that the Dragon's soul Aether can just chill in the Etheyris lifestream. Even old Nidhogg didn't know. 'Whither now' indeed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 18:05
|
|
|
Emet and Hythlodaeus also hung around for a while but they had a reason. And a reason to take their bow out afterwards.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 18:08
|
|
|
Also, while you can cross space, it doesn't allow you to cross between Shards, since Hades' and Minfilia's soul needed Hydaelin to get back to the Source, and Thirteenth Voidsent who manage to physically cross over into the Source do end up mixing into the Source's Lifestream if they die there. (While if they're just 'partly summoned' their soul goes back to the 13th, much like Zero's did)
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 18:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 05:42 |
|
|
It's probably worth noting that Hydaelyn made specific mention that she sort of had to Bank Transfer Emet-Selch and Minfilia from The First's Lifestream back to The Source's, or else they presumably would have been stuck there because that's where they passed, so by that logic one would assume you just go to the Lifestream of wherever you are. However, given that the Lifestreams of the Source and its Reflections probably operate on different rules compared to say, the Source and the Dragonstar, it's hard to say if that applies to dying somewhere out in Space.
|
|
#
?
Jan 31, 2023 18:20
|
|
