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ro5s posted:I love to debate and discuss with people who’ve said they’ll cry to teacher when they see incorrect thought Gyro Zeppeli posted:Turning "If you argue in here, you'll get banned" to "See, I knew you were to scared to argue" is a weird move. Why would forkboy84 feel at all inclined to post in that thread when you just said if they did, they'd get banned? I'm saying that the hot takes about the Evil Ukrainians being Nazis who deserve a little imperialism for their own good are just fuckin dogshit but that also the best place for them is a thread all about that topic where they might catch a probe for it yeah. forkboy84 is free to prove me wrong tho. Darth Walrus posted:It is also quite well-documented that they are using these arms, training, and publicity to develop and support far-right domestic terrorist movements around the world, which are guaranteed to attack folks like me and the people I care about. Got a source for this?
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Feb 5, 2023 15:41
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I'm saying that the hot takes about the Evil Ukrainians being Nazis who deserve a little imperialism for their own good are just fuckin dogshit but that also the best place for them is a thread all about that topic where they might catch a probe for it yeah. forkboy84 is free to prove me wrong tho. Ayup. Posted it up-thread. Here you go. quote:Outside Ukraine, Azov occupies a central role in a network of extremist groups stretching from California across Europe to New Zealand, according to law enforcement officials on three continents. And it acts as a magnet for young men eager for combat experience. Ali Soufan, a security consultant and former FBI agent who has studied Azov, estimates that more than 17,000 foreign fighters have come to Ukraine over the past six years from 50 countries. Like I said, ticking time-bomb.
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Feb 5, 2023 15:48
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fuctifino posted:Any chance of containing the poo poo opinions about Ukraine in CSPAM?
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Feb 5, 2023 15:57
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Darth Walrus posted:Ayup. Posted it up-thread. Here you go. quote:As reported by the Soufan Center, between 2014 and 2019 approximately 17,000 foreign fighters from over 50 countries traveled to the battlefield, “nearly 90% of whom came from Russia to fight with the pro-Russian separatists in the Donbas, attracting foreigners supporting violent far-right ideologies.” Excluding Russian foreign fighters, up to around 900 foreign fighters joined the Ukrainian side, including a significant but difficult to quantify number of right-wing extremists. I edited out the citations for readability, but the article itself (from summer 2022) seems to be well-sourced. Of course one could argue that West Point itself is a fascist organization, but 
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Feb 5, 2023 16:08
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Darth Walrus posted:Ayup. Posted it up-thread. Here you go. So a minority of the population of Ukraine are cunts but the rest has to suffer. Good to know.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:11
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Darth Walrus posted:Ayup. Posted it up-thread. Here you go. One largely defused, the Nazi leadership was removed when the unit was fully integrated into the Ukrainian national guard, and the membership became extremely dilute as the unit took losses. After its capture and exchange it was rebuilt as a regular unit with a regular name, 3rd Separate Assault Brigade, and no remaining Neo-nazi branding. Hauling up an article from BEFORE THE WAR to prove your point is kinda old news, effectively Ukraine preformed very well in handling the unit. Kinda dirty to attack Ukraine on this, they were in no position to turn down volunteers after 2014 for the separatist conflict. Azov the organization died long before the name. Their are still a bunch of Neo-nazis existing in the military, but they are entirely under the command of Ukraine's central command and not in some weirdo separate political units or politically independent PMCs like Wagner or whatever the gently caress Kardov's forces are that are essentially war crime units. Just like how if you shake any military hard enough Nazis or Nazi like idiots fall out https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-14/photo-shows-nazi-flag-flown-over-australian-army-vehicle/9859618. Ukraine simply knows where most of them are.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:11
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Darth Walrus posted:Ayup. Posted it up-thread. Here you go. Most of them died in Mariupol, though arseholes still abound everywhere in the world.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:17
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Also if we're talking alternatives, I was under the impression that russian occupied territories are training their own neo nazis to carry out suppression of dissent and supply troops for the ongoing invasion. So, at the very least it seems like Ukraine would be the less nazi option.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:24
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Bobby Deluxe posted:The problem is someone mentioned theoretical Corbyn-616's response to Ukraine, which is I guess relevant to UKPol. That unfortunately awoke The War Opinions™ and we should at this point just knuckle down for a few pages of absolutely deranged slapfights that belong in any number of other threads. its always great when this comes up and you see half a dozen people who never post ITT but do post 200 times a day in either of the relevant threads to use this as a battlefield to prove their posting valor lol
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Feb 5, 2023 16:35
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I think Russia's poo poo and Ukraine is also poo poo, but that doesn't justify sending in the troops and shelling Ukrainian cities. There are undoubtedly some very shady far right Ukrainian nationalists, some of whom are near enough fascists, and the government has cosied up to them far too readily by giving groups like Azov formal power. They don't even try to hide their Nazi sympathies. It's also true that many people, if not a majority, in Ukraine's eastern cities, and particularly the breakaway separatist states, consider themselves Russian and would much rather be part of Russia. I absolutely don't buy Putin's line that they were about to be genocided, but they clearly don't want to be part of Ukraine. Russia also is full of fascists, and the war is clearly the product of Russian irredentism rather than some humanitarian effort to protect ethnic Russians. It's a clusterfuck but pretending this is a simple 'Russia bad Ukraine good' situation is childish at best. Honestly, in Zelensky's place I would been tempted to make the undoubtedly unpopular decision of formally giving up the contested Eastern land then agreeing to a Finland-esque position of non-alignment with either NATO or Moscow. There's been conflict along that border for years, the majority of the people there don't want to be part of Ukraine, and are the cities there really worth all this chaos to hold on to? I don't really think that Putin has any desire to fully annex the entire country. Ofc that decision would likely get the person making it shot, so that needs to be taken into account. Really the only people I feel genuinely for in the whole thing are the average poor fuckers getting bombed out of their homes and conscripted to fight in a war that they have zero desire to be a part of. Russia obviously deserves most of the blame for that but Ukraine has been totally awful in some of their decisions too - preventing adult men leaving the country for example was loving heinous. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 16:40
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ThomasPaine posted:Ukraine has been totally awful in some of their decisions too - preventing adult men leaving the country for example was loving heinous. They did a thing that literally every other country would do in the same situation 
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Feb 5, 2023 16:48
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ThomasPaine posted:t's also true that many people, if not a majority, in Ukraine's eastern cities, and particularly the breakaway separatist states, consider themselves Russian and would much rather be part of Russia. I absolutely don't buy Putin's line that they were about to be genocided, but they clearly don't want to be part of Ukraine. Russia also is full of fascists, and the war is clearly the product of Russian irredentism rather than some humanitarian effort to protect ethnic Russians. It's a clusterfuck but pretending this is a simple 'Russia bad Ukraine good' situation is childish at best. This works even moreso when you replace Eastern Ukraine with Sudetenland. More to the point I don't think most people in the east were in support of rejoining Russia - finding statistics is obviously difficult, but in surveys before 2013 it was around a third or so.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:48
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sinky posted:They did a thing that literally every other country would do in the same situation Whatever, doesn't make it right.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:51
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sinky posted:They did a thing that literally every other country would do in the same situation It would also be hosed up when anybody else did it.
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Feb 5, 2023 16:52
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Never mind that the support for breaking away from Ukraine has been deliberately whipped up and helped along, by Russia, including having troops illegally in there for loving years before the war. If one of the counties of Ireland wanted to break off and potentially join the North, and every Irish person going was pointing out that for the past decade it's been flooded with guys with hastily crossed-out Union Jacks on their arms and a suspicious amount of printing presses, would we be reacting like "oh well, will of the people, guess they just culturally consider themselves to be cunts"
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Feb 5, 2023 16:53
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Insanely rare TP/OF agreement moment
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Feb 5, 2023 16:54
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I'm as surprised as you but yeah, the hooting and hollering for the ukrainian army to do movie stalingrad with anyone who could pick up a gun is the thing that stopped me reading the war thread. I don't have a good suggestion for an alternative to the current arrangement but I'm far from happy with how many people seem to be all in on dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
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Feb 5, 2023 17:05
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Dabir posted:Never mind that the support for breaking away from Ukraine has been deliberately whipped up and helped along, by Russia, including having troops illegally in there for loving years before the war. The union jack comes pre crossed out, indeed taking a hard look at it it seems to be nothing but crossing things out  OwlFancier posted:I'm as surprised as you but yeah, the hooting and hollering for the ukrainian army to do movie stalingrad with anyone who could pick up a gun is the thing that stopped me reading the war thread. I don't have a good suggestion for an alternative to the current arrangement but I'm far from happy with how many people seem to be all in on dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. the thread is far better moderated now and its calmed down a lot from march-may, not running at 30 pages a day anymore.
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Feb 5, 2023 17:07
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OwlFancier posted:I'm as surprised as you but yeah, the hooting and hollering for the ukrainian army to do movie stalingrad with anyone who could pick up a gun is the thing that stopped me reading the war thread. I don't have a good suggestion for an alternative to the current arrangement but I'm far from happy with how many people seem to be all in on dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. they are being invaded
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Feb 5, 2023 17:07
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ThomasPaine posted:Honestly, in Zelensky's place I would been tempted to make the undoubtedly unpopular decision of formally giving up the contested Eastern land then agreeing to a Finland-esque position of non-alignment with either NATO or Moscow. There's been conflict along that border for years, the majority of the people there don't want to be part of Ukraine, and are the cities there really worth all this chaos to hold on to? I don't really think that Putin has any desire to fully annex the entire country. Ofc that decision would likely get the person making it shot, so that needs to be taken into account. note that Russia did not want independence of the LPR/DPR either in Minsk II - the demand was instead for special autonomous status within Ukraine whilst being de facto under Russian control. That this would permanently install a Russian office in Ukrainian politics would be the intended aim Partition of both oblasts and then unilateral expulsion of the occupied portions would certainly have been a bold solution, but Russia would resist that outcome (since it would deprive Russia of the prize, i.e., influence in Kyiv) whilst France and Germany would no longer back Ukraine's position in the peace process. And then what? In that context - of already de facto dependence on France and Germany for support, Ukraine realistically had few choices but to keep kicking the can down the road so that the issue is not costly for France and Germany to deal with
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Feb 5, 2023 17:10
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Dabir posted:they are being invaded That doesn't actually make it cause for celebration when people get killed because of that. It's just hosed up and miserable.
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Feb 5, 2023 17:10
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well tell that to the people doing the invading, not the people defending their homes. like, did you just forget that the context of that quote was young people being sent to a foreign land to die pointlessly over a land dispute in a place they'd never visit and probably never even think about otherwise, entirely manufactured by their leaders? that describes the russian troops! not the ukrainian ones, who are trying not to get shot by russians
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Feb 5, 2023 17:17
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The only thing the last couple of pages has taught me is that the Ukraine thread appears to make people completely incapable of reading the post in front of them, when it's much more fun to just call everyone who disagrees with you a put in apologist.
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Feb 5, 2023 17:19
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does anyone remember bassets bruisers? i wonder if you can still get them!
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Feb 5, 2023 17:33
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Dabir posted:well tell that to the people doing the invading, not the people defending their homes. like, did you just forget that the context of that quote was young people being sent to a foreign land to die pointlessly over a land dispute in a place they'd never visit and probably never even think about otherwise, entirely manufactured by their leaders? that describes the russian troops! not the ukrainian ones, who are trying not to get shot by russians My objection, which I thought was articulated clearly, was to people who were not involved in the conflict cheerleading the people who were marching to their deaths like it was a team sport. And the poem, I think, is rather more generally about the misery of war, it doesn't say anything about where it is fought and I don't think it would be any less true for the french troops in the war it was written about.
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Feb 5, 2023 17:36
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Sir Sidney Poitier posted:Biriths politics is hosed. What country should I move to? Stay and fight.
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Feb 5, 2023 17:58
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ThomasPaine posted:It's also true that many people, if not a majority, in Ukraine's eastern cities, and particularly the breakaway separatist states, consider themselves Russian and would much rather be part of Russia. I absolutely don't buy Putin's line that they were about to be genocided, but they clearly don't want to be part of Ukraine. A lot of the rest of what you said is basically right, but this isn't any more. Yes, a large percentage of the residents of the breakaway republics were pro-Russian between 2014 and the 2022 invasion, but that has changed significantly since they came under actual Russian occupation. A lot of reporting has shown that many people who previously identified as culturally Russian or who were mildly pro-Russian in eastern Ukraine are now either neutral or pro-Ukrainian. The actions of Russian troops did a lot to convince people that they don't actually want to be a part of Russia. This whole discussion just reinforces my impression that the Russian invasion of Ukraine basically broke a lot of people's brains on the left. The mealy mouthed critiques of Ukraine and unwillingness to blame Russia I've heard from some leftist circles since the invasion began is really gross. MeinPanzer fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 18:01
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frytechnician posted:Stay and fight. With whom? Also I hadn't even noticed my utterly lovely typing there. Kovfefe.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:05
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OwlFancier posted:My objection, which I thought was articulated clearly, was to people who were not involved in the conflict cheerleading the people who were marching to their deaths like it was a team sport. Nobody here is doing that, though? TP said that Ukraine not allowing men of service age to leave the country was bad; Dabir pointed out that any other country facing an invasion would do the same. Everyone knows that most Ukrainians involved in the war are being forced to fight a war they don't want, but it's not like Kyiv are instituting a draft for nebulous reasons. The Ukrainian government has itself been forced to take that step, and they too would be happier if there was no need to do it. But they don't have that choice, unless you consider rolling over and dying before a gang of war criminals to be a choice. Saying that they need to do it is not cheerleading, it is not celebratory, it is simply stating a grim necessity.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:10
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In 'Labour are actively antagonistic to the general public' updates: https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1622166876624134144?s=46&t=FBVSJEwa8yZmgIBgIBnPTQ https://twitter.com/redcollectiveuk/status/1621905155120570370?s=46&t=FBVSJEwa8yZmgIBgIBnPTQ I definitely think we're hitting the point where talking about 'good Labour MPs' is challenging because them being members of the PLP who haven't been expelled yet is itself an argument against them being 'good'.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:14
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Jedit posted:Nobody here is doing that, though? TP said that Ukraine not allowing men of service age to leave the country was bad; Dabir pointed out that any other country facing an invasion would do the same. Everyone knows that most Ukrainians involved in the war are being forced to fight a war they don't want, but it's not like Kyiv are instituting a draft for nebulous reasons. The Ukrainian government has itself been forced to take that step, and they too would be happier if there was no need to do it. But they don't have that choice, unless you consider rolling over and dying before a gang of war criminals to be a choice. Saying that they need to do it is not cheerleading, it is not celebratory, it is simply stating a grim necessity. I was referring to why I stopped reading the war thread, not this one. Though I do find the rationale uncompelling, that it is OK to stop people leaving the country because you plan to draft them, because "you" have no choice. The would-be-draftees would have a choice if they were allowed to leave, the members of the government may not have a choice but people who could otherwise leave the country would, if they were allowed to, and I think it should be theirs to make. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 18:15
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Jedit posted:Nobody here is doing that, though? TP said that Ukraine not allowing men of service age to leave the country was bad; Dabir pointed out that any other country facing an invasion would do the same. Everyone knows that most Ukrainians involved in the war are being forced to fight a war they don't want, but it's not like Kyiv are instituting a draft for nebulous reasons. The Ukrainian government has itself been forced to take that step, and they too would be happier if there was no need to do it. But they don't have that choice, unless you consider rolling over and dying before a gang of war criminals to be a choice. Saying that they need to do it is not cheerleading, it is not celebratory, it is simply stating a grim necessity. Owl's initial post was about the Ukraine thread, and why they don't post there. I mean at least read these posts.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:15
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I thought I could escape the Ukraine threads here.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:17
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Darth Walrus posted:In 'Labour are actively antagonistic to the general public' updates: Yeah not really sure how you can be a 'good labour MP' and sit back and watch the party kill the NHS. That clip also has one of my biggest bug bear tropes 'do more with less'. Even my bosses have given up started sending out stuff basically saying 'we now have to do less'. JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 18:18
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Darth Walrus posted:
This was literally a Cameron critique of Labour Party policy, now being used by the party themselves. Reminds me of that Thatcher line about her biggest political achievement being Tony Blair
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Feb 5, 2023 18:18
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Answers Me posted:This was literally a Cameron critique of Labour Party policy, now being used by the party themselves. Reminds me of that Thatcher line about her biggest political achievement being Tony Blair This is such a good catch. The Labour party has effectively become the Cameron wing of the Tories.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:22
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Darth Walrus posted:https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1622166876624134144?s=46&t=FBVSJEwa8yZmgIBgIBnPTQ The economy consisting entirely of rent and electricity charges because people can't afford anything else.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:23
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They've been that for a while, really.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:23
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MeinPanzer posted:
I think a lot of leftists seem to believe that Russia is still the USSR, rather than a gangster capitalist shithole coasting on the nostalgia of it.
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Feb 5, 2023 18:28
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what’s everyone’s favourite monster munch? mine is any because i’m a fat bastard
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Feb 5, 2023 18:36
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