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The problem is the game rewards you for ranking up so if you want them sweet rewards you can't just play fun decks.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:22
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Bottom Liner posted:That’s the problem though isn’t it? The game isn’t set up well for competitive play. They really need to add a casual queue and refine the ranked one. I think the issue here is that a large chunk of the player base would just not play ranked since they would prefer not to engage with the cube system. It's just... not a good system. In addition to slanting toward a strong negativity bias, it also means that 90% of your games never see turn six resolve. Hell, above rank 80'ish, a good third of games end before turn four. A card game where finishing games is not commonplace is a weird concept that I don't think most people would opt into if they had any other choice.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:25
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Granstein posted:The only game the featured location made a difference for me was one where the second location was lamentis. I also learned that if you silence one of the cards in your opening hand with zero, it for some reason remains silenced when your hand gets cloned which seems...incorrect? It worked out, since I wanted it silenced for a reason, but it I don't think it should work like that. I ran into the Zero status staying on as well, does this mean a Zero'd Ebony Maw could get played after turn 3?
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Feb 8, 2023 17:27
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Push El Burrito posted:The problem is the game rewards you for ranking up so if you want them sweet rewards you can't just play fun decks. It's a hard balance to have fun and stay competitive, if being competitive is fun.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:29
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A casual mode or making it to where you don’t drop a full rank or not not drop into the next 10 (60 to 59) would fix those things imo
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Feb 8, 2023 17:32
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The ladder is fine casually, cubes are a consideration (as they're supposed to be by the game design) but they're not treated ultra seriously. But it's a complete trap for the semi-serious 5% of dedicated players who would like to rank up every season and don't throw games in infinite. The system is designed to make it impossible for a lot of them the next month.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:33
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Skippy McPants posted:A card game where finishing games is not commonplace is a weird concept that I don't think most people would opt into if they had any other choice. I think it's this. Jeff Hoogland posted a video where he said that more than 30% of his games were retreats (and then a bunch of his wins were the opponent retreating). We know that two of the best cube-winners have a below 50% win rate, which means it's more about ending the game and managing betting mechanics. People like playing big turns. They love this so much that MTG created a name for them 'Timmy" and puts big cards in every set to appeal to them. "Johnny"s like pulling together weird combos. "Spike"s love competitive play. Wizards has written extensively about how they try to appeal to all three gamer types (and the people who are hybrid players). Timmies and Johnnies often don't get to see their cool decks pay off with the current ladder mechanics. It's a game optimized around the tension and pay off of a number going up and down, which is geared for Spikes. What's weird is that Ben talks and markets like a Timmy. He constantly exhorts the wild decks and crazy combos that we'll be able to play. But then he made a game that's about not doing that.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:35
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It's not that simple. This game doesnt work without cubes because turn 1 losses to sakaar can't cost players the same as a turn 6 game. There are also a ton of bad patterns in card games that get removed by the snap system, like being forced to play out 97% losses. I don't think the cube system is some problem with snap and if it is an issue it is completely distinct from whats going on with internal MMR. Keep in mind that being able to retreat for 1 is a giant boon for inconsistent exodia timmy decks.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:41
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I like the snapping, I think it brings a unique element to the game. I think it would be a lesser game without it or something like it. I'm just not very good at it.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:51
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No Wave posted:It's not that simple. This game doesnt work without cubes because turn 1 losses to sakaar can't cost players the same as a turn 6 game. There are also a ton of bad patterns in card games that get removed by the snap system, like being forced to play out 97% losses. I don't think the cube system is some problem with snap and if it is an issue it is completely distinct from whats going on with internal MMR. It's not, though. In other card games, the stake for dropping out on turn 1 or turn whatever is the same, so if your deck needs to fire by a certain turn and doesn't, you're free to leave. Only the snap mechanic, the fear of greater losses, create the pressure to exit the moment you're no longer favorable to win. I get the idea of creating a system that disincentives playing out near certain losses in the hope of hitting an out, but I think snapping is a solution worse than the problem. It swings far too far in the direction, urging the player to fold anything below a ~25% chance to win without snap or a 40% chance with.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:53
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This time last week: "What the hell is MODOK for?" Now: "MODOK every deck"
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Feb 8, 2023 17:54
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The Sean posted:This time last week: "What the hell is MODOK for?" Obviously MODOK will die off a little but he's gonna be a discard staple going forward.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:56
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The Sean posted:This time last week: "What the hell is MODOK for?" People like cool new cards. Which is another problem with the game, really. Imagine if the player base at large could actually get ahold of and use the new card they release every week, rather than siloing it off at the very tippy-top of progression where only a fraction of the population will have a chance to obtain it.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:56
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Skippy McPants posted:People like cool new cards. Which is another problem with the game, really. Imagine if the player base at large could actually get ahold of and use the new card they release every week, rather than siloing it off at the very tippy-top of progression where only a fraction of the population will have a chance to obtain it. They have to fix series 5/new card introductions outside of the season pass. In my opinion, it has to be a top priority concerning progression structure.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:58
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MODOK is pretty loving good. That was the joke.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:58
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Kaddish posted:Obviously MODOK will die off a little but he's gonna be a discard staple going forward. Skippy McPants posted:People like cool new cards. Which is another problem with the game, really. Imagine if the player base at large could actually get ahold of and use the new card they release every week, rather than siloing it off at the very tippy-top of progression where only a fraction of the population will have a chance to obtain it. Yeah, I wasn't hating on it, just observing. this: No Wave posted:MODOK is pretty loving good. That was the joke.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:59
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Skippy McPants posted:People like cool new cards. Which is another problem with the game, really. Imagine if the player base at large could actually get ahold of and use the new card they release every week, rather than siloing it off at the very tippy-top of progression where only a fraction of the population will have a chance to obtain it. imo this is the game's biggest problem. four new cards dropped last month other than zabu: sauron, shadow king, dazzler, and shanna. I've seen one of them (sauron) more than once - and I've seen him maybe three times, because it's basically impossible to get new cards when they're released. and i played way too much last month, getting above 110 in the season pass. it's bizarre that they prevent 95-98% of the player base from even seeing the new cards they spend their time working on and balancing.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:02
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The Sean posted:This time last week: "What the hell is MODOK for?" This card is fun as hell. Glad to be wrong
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Feb 8, 2023 18:05
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the_american_dream posted:This card is fun as hell. Glad to be wrong Definitely. I'm losing hard to it today but it's been really fun to watch.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:08
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Sweet, I thought this would take longer. Didn't even need MODOK. I have no idea what kind of deck my opponent was playing.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:10
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No Wave posted:Keep in mind that being able to retreat for 1 is a giant boon for inconsistent exodia timmy decks. I think the argument here is that Timmys generally want to play out that big turn even if they lose afterwards, and the cube mechanic penalizes them for doing so. Maybe the solution is to have an option to concede at whatever the current cube rate is, but still finish the match.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:10
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Cattail Prophet posted:I think the argument here is that Timmys generally want to play out that big turn even if they lose afterwards, and the cube mechanic penalizes them for doing so. That's a really interesting idea.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:12
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buffalo all day posted:imo this is the game's biggest problem. four new cards dropped last month other than zabu: sauron, shadow king, dazzler, and shanna. I've seen one of them (sauron) more than once - and I've seen him maybe three times, because it's basically impossible to get new cards when they're released. and i played way too much last month, getting above 110 in the season pass. it's bizarre that they prevent 95-98% of the player base from even seeing the new cards they spend their time working on and balancing. It’s really weird to me too. Like I get that for this game “collecting them all” is not a priority. But surely there’s a middle ground between that and “most people will never be able to play with the new cards we make”
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Feb 8, 2023 18:15
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buffalo all day posted:imo this is the game's biggest problem. four new cards dropped last month other than zabu: sauron, shadow king, dazzler, and shanna. I've seen one of them (sauron) more than once - and I've seen him maybe three times, because it's basically impossible to get new cards when they're released. and i played way too much last month, getting above 110 in the season pass. it's bizarre that they prevent 95-98% of the player base from even seeing the new cards they spend their time working on and balancing. And even for the top 5%, the price of new cards is so steep that almost nobody is willing to buy or experiment with them because they're so loving expensive. If we assume a somewhat generous 500 tokens from every four Collector’s Reserves, that's a new Series 5 card for every 48 Reserves. That's 576 character levels or roughly 28,800 credits per S5 card. Even at the best credit values, that is somewhere between $200-300 United States Dollars for a single Series 5 card in Marvel Snap. At those rates, even the whales aren't going to bother unless the card is obviously OP as gently caress. So marginal stuff like Dazzler or Shanna might as well not even be in the game.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:17
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How is "retreat later" supposed to work? I get a message up saying it's checking if the other player is retreating, and then a second later it says I've escaped and I lose a cube. Seems exactly the same as "retreat now" unless they happen to quit during that very small window where it's checking?
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Feb 8, 2023 18:19
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Skippy McPants posted:And even for the top 5%, the price of new cards is so steep that almost nobody is willing to buy or experiment with them because they're so loving expensive. If we assume a somewhat generous 500 tokens from every four Collector’s Reserves, that's a new Series 5 card for every 48 Reserves. That's 576 character levels or roughly 28,800 credits per S5 card. Even at the best credit values, that is somewhere between $200-300 United States Dollars for a single Series 5 card in Marvel Snap. Might as well not be in the game for two months or so, you mean.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:19
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There's so much variance in the game between locations and the draw, and each game is so short, that it straight wouldn't be compelling for longer than a few hours without snapping. Retreating for 1 when you draw bad two locations and not getting your openers but then winning 8 the next game feels a whole lot better than just winning one and then losing one. Obviously if you don't care about cubes, go ahead and play every game out, that's fine and good if you're having fun, but if that's the case why do you even care about the snapping mechanic when you can totally ignore it Hobo Clown posted:How is "retreat later" supposed to work? I get a message up saying it's checking if the other player is retreating, and then a second later it says I've escaped and I lose a cube. Seems exactly the same as "retreat now" unless they happen to quit during that very small window where it's checking?
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Feb 8, 2023 18:20
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Hobo Clown posted:How is "retreat later" supposed to work? I get a message up saying it's checking if the other player is retreating, and then a second later it says I've escaped and I lose a cube. Seems exactly the same as "retreat now" unless they happen to quit during that very small window where it's checking? You are correct. It prevents losing cubes if they also retreat. I think, I never use it. Probably should.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:20
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Hobo Clown posted:How is "retreat later" supposed to work? I get a message up saying it's checking if the other player is retreating, and then a second later it says I've escaped and I lose a cube. Seems exactly the same as "retreat now" unless they happen to quit during that very small window where it's checking? It delays your retreat until your opponent either retreats or locks in their turn. If you both retreat nobody loses a cube, if they lock their turn then you lose whatever you had staked. It's most useful on turns 5 and 6 when the game is close, and you think you ought to retreat but aren't quite sure. There's a decent chance your opponent is thinking the same thing, so sometimes it'll save you some cubes. Also if they snap late and you think they might be bluffing, hoping to force a retreat. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Feb 8, 2023 |
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Feb 8, 2023 18:23
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Hobo Clown posted:How is "retreat later" supposed to work? I get a message up saying it's checking if the other player is retreating, and then a second later it says I've escaped and I lose a cube. Seems exactly the same as "retreat now" unless they happen to quit during that very small window where it's checking? Retreat later is for if you think your opponent is going to retreat too. Basically the game checks if they hit end turn or retreat. If it's end turn you lose one cube. If it's also retreat, you lose zero. Edit: threads moving fast today.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:27
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Kaddish posted:You are correct. It prevents losing cubes if they also retreat. I think, I never use it. Probably should. Yeah no reason to ever use the regular one (outside of a spider/absorb or similar guaranteed loss). Later can save you a fair amount of cubes at the expense of waiting for your opponent to lock in their turn.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:28
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Bottom Liner posted:Yeah no reason to ever use the regular one (outside of a spider/absorb or similar guaranteed loss). Later can save you a fair amount of cubes at the expense of waiting for your opponent to lock in their turn. This is one of those things where the right play in basically all circumstances is also one I basically won't make, because if I'm out I want out now and to start matchmaking. Not wait for 45 seconds for the opponent to decide they might lose too. e: I also really wish i could just skip animations, no i do not care about how many tens of points got added by whatever combo i lost to, i just want to leave and see another game. stop making me watch this! Push El Burrito posted:The problem is the game rewards you for ranking up so if you want them sweet rewards you can't just play fun decks. this, i'm not getting like $10 worth of progression every season because I've never gotten past rank 60 rewards. It's enough to want to set up an autoclicker near season end and do the stupid agatha deck thing to try tanking MMR and then make that run up to 100. Though starting from 10 is probably a little too hard.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:37
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parasyte posted:This is one of those things where the right play in basically all circumstances is also one I basically won't make, because if I'm out I want out now and to start matchmaking. Not wait for 45 seconds for the opponent to decide they might lose too. e: I also really wish i could just skip animations, no i do not care about how many tens of points got added by whatever combo i lost to, i just want to leave and see another game. stop making me watch this! Oh I think the $10 pass is worth it without getting to infinite or whatever, as long as you get to 50 on the season track. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying. "Worth" is relative to me, obviously, outside of the "value" of real money vs. in-game rewards, etc etc.
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Feb 8, 2023 18:40
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the rewards for cube rankings are pretty inconsequential, play fun decks
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Feb 8, 2023 18:42
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parasyte posted:this, i'm not getting like $10 worth of progression every season because I've never gotten past rank 60 rewards. It's enough to want to set up an autoclicker near season end and do the stupid agatha deck thing to try tanking MMR and then make that run up to 100. Though starting from 10 is probably a little too hard. It is. No matter how hard you tank your MMR, it will have recovered again before you can gain 900 cubes. The system is basically set up so that anyone who didn't game CL to get to Infinite probably never will. The number of people you see saying they got to x9.y before getting hammered down only reinforces that idea. Last season I got to 68 with a week to go, and 68 is where I finished. I got to 69.x every day and every time I hit a brick wall of bullshit RNG and cheating bots. I'd play five or six games in a row with Surfer without ever drawing him in six turns, but as soon as I was crushed back down to 67-68 he'd begin showing up half the time by turn 3 as you'd expect.
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Feb 8, 2023 19:04
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Managed to put up some tasty numbers on this one. Thanks Mr. MODOK.
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Feb 8, 2023 19:13
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Kaddish posted:Oh I think the $10 pass is worth it without getting to infinite or whatever, as long as you get to 50 on the season track. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying. I mean the 500 credits and 500 gold rewards at rank 70 and 90 respectively. It's progress I almost certainly won't get, because I didn't hit infinite and every season it dumps down 3 tiers without any MMR change.
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Feb 8, 2023 19:15
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Can someone who is smarter than me explain how this omega red put 24 into other lanes? In no way does 4 being doubled, in any iteration, equal to 24. Why does this do 6x rather than 4x? I feel like I should have won this, hence why I snapped. 
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Feb 8, 2023 19:15
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SweetJahasus posted:Can someone who is smarter than me explain how this omega red put 24 into other lanes? In no way does 4 being doubled, in any iteration, equal to 24. Why does this do 6x rather than 4x? Onslaught and Mystique don't recursively double each other. So Onslaught doubles Mystique to 4x and doubles Red as normal, then Mystique adds another 4x to Red for a total of 6x.
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Feb 8, 2023 19:19
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Skippy McPants posted:It delays your retreat until your opponent either retreats or locks in their turn. If you both retreat nobody loses a cube, if they lock their turn then you lose whatever you had staked. That makes sense, thanks everyone. I usually only try it when it's T2 or T3 and we've gotten bad batch of unfun locations.
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Feb 8, 2023 19:36
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