|
GunnerJ posted:The Romans didn't really appear to give that much of a poo poo about their own customary religion over the long run, so it's also possible they just adopted the gods of the Norse wholesale through syncretic identification. So I like this idea. This didn't really happen with Hellenistic or other deities, so I don't think you can draw that conclusion. The Romans just kind of coopted Hellenistic/Gallic/Germanic religious stories under their own branding (as a very gross oversimplification). So you ended up (IRL) where a recognizable Odin-story were assigned to Mercury, and Mercury was a relatively popular god, possibly the most popular, in Roman Germania. I would imagine that this process would be quite similar in this narrative. Perhaps the Germanic culture is more dominant so you retain names of Germanic gods, but give them Roman stories too.
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 15:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:05 |
|
|
Luca_024 posted:Honestly, I don't really think this checks out? Non-codified religions are a complicated beast for us to understand when we're not used to that, but there's plenty of evidence that the romans who followed Hellenic religion were pretty drat serious about it. Many Christian traditions practiced to this day were adaptations of earlier Roman ones to make the jump easier for the Hellenic faithful - for example, archaeologists estimate Jesus was born around August, but we celebrate Christmas near the Winter Solstice because that's when an earlier, pagan Roman festival happened, and the traditions of gift-giving and tree-decorating come from there as well. Also, even after Christianity became the Empire's official religion, there is plenty of evidence of local elites maintaining pagan customs for a while. "Romans adopting Hellenic gods in the first place" is what I was thinking of, but fair enough. Although it's also worth noting that "Rome as continent-spanning empire" and "Rome as rump remnant out on the wilderness" are two pretty different situations. Whatever Romans might think, they aren't anywhere near as powerful as in OTL, so they're probably not in the driver's seat of the cultural merger.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:"Romans adopting Hellenic gods in the first place" is what I was thinking of, but fair enough. Although it's also worth noting that "Rome as continent-spanning empire" and "Rome as rump remnant out on the wilderness" are two pretty different situations. Whatever Romans might think, they aren't anywhere near as powerful as in OTL, so they're probably not in the driver's seat of the cultural merger. i guess at that point we need to ask ourselves how exactly is the merger happening - are the Norse leaders taking up Roman customs to increase their control of society, like OTL Germanic leaders of newly-conquered kingdoms did? How entrenched were the Roman elites in Germania before the Third Punic War? How violent is the Roman rule, how frequent are rebellions? Are the Romans trying to convince the Norse to cooperate or just brute-forcing their way through the whole process? All of that could influence how exactly the syncretism ends up happening, and I don't think the Romans can force the Norse into doing much given their current position, either.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 16:09
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:"Romans adopting Hellenic gods in the first place" is what I was thinking of, but fair enough. Although it's also worth noting that "Rome as continent-spanning empire" and "Rome as rump remnant out on the wilderness" are two pretty different situations. Whatever Romans might think, they aren't anywhere near as powerful as in OTL, so they're probably not in the driver's seat of the cultural merger. Describing what went on with Roman religion as "Romans adopting Hellenic gods" is not really an accurate description of what happened, though. The Romans mashed any gods they came across in to their pantheon. It had already happened with various local Italian and Etruscan religious structures. Really, it was more of a cross-identification process. "That God you call X is our God we call Y"
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 17:44
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Describing what went on with Roman religion as "Romans adopting Hellenic gods" is not really an accurate description of what happened, though. The Romans mashed any gods they came across in to their pantheon. It had already happened with various local Italian and Etruscan religious structures. Really, it was more of a cross-identification process. "That God you call X is our God we call Y" Yup. And it's good that OP is in the driver's seat on just creating fiction they like here because this one is really tricky. Norse religion has a loooot of gaps and a lot of common misconceptions about the few things we do know. Archaeological evidence suggests Odin was a minor God, at least in terms of practice, but who's to say the nu-mans won't pump his cult up like crazy? Ullr is a bit on the other side, being a clearly really popular God who features minimally in popular imagination, but he's an archer, so is Apollo, we got some legs. And to make this even a bit more "fun," the nu-mans have little reason not to get kind of into Carthaginian gods. Why not have Baal and Vulcan-Thor or Mars-Heimdall be friends or rivals
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
Gods and big state temples doesn't really reflect how the man on the street interacts with roman religion. Real fun idea is how the concepts of numen and lares merge with protonorse religion. Giving an offering to the guardian spirit of the fjord to protect the village while I cover myself in Virtue raiding to strengthen the Godhead that watches over the eternal jarldom
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
Agean90 posted:Gods and big state temples doesn't really reflect how the man on the street interacts with roman religion. Real fun idea is how the concepts of numen and lares merge with protonorse religion. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
Look, just tell me who Kratos and Atreus are going to make friends with and who they're going to kill so I can update my chart God of War chart.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2023 20:07
|
|
|
Wait a second, I've got a good one. Roman -> romen -> nomen -> nromen -> Norman! ...Wait.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 06:28
|
|
|
What did ancient Germans call Romans?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 15:16
|
|
|
'These assholes' probably, 'a good target for raiding' quite often, and eventually 'our salvation from the invasion' followed by 'these assholes' again. A very complicated relationship.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 16:05
|
|
|
Sherbert Hoover posted:What did ancient Germans call Romans? This feels like the setup to one of those jokes I haven't taken enough grad school history classes to get.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 16:16
|
|
|
Sherbert Hoover posted:What did ancient Germans call Romans? All tho' Greeks just call em Garum-lover, All the Germans just call 'em "Sir"
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 16:18
|
|
|
Sherbert Hoover posted:What did ancient Germans call Romans? 'Foreign' - specifically, some variant on https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/welsch, possibly originally 'walhisch' or 'walhiskas', see also https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valskr. Originally used for celtic peoples (those being the neighbors of germanic cultures, see also the Welsh), and later for Romans/Romance-speakers (what with them being the new neighbors, see also Wallachia, the Romance-speakers in Switzerland, and Welsch-Bern [Verona, where Dietrich von Bern/Theodoric the Great was said to rule from). Edit: mind you, depending on how integrated the Romans and the Norse are, calling them foreign might not make sense.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 17:02
|
|
|
Caustic Soda posted:'Foreign' - specifically, some variant on https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/welsch, possibly originally 'walhisch' or 'walhiskas', see also https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valskr. Well I've heard enough, the Romans are now the Welsh.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 17:09
|
|
|
If Rome was mythologically founded and named for Romulus, the Rome-in-Exile might build upon the same myth and name it after Remus, Remia. EDIT: Alternatively tie the entire Romulus and Remus myth into the Fenris, them being a lost tribe of "Lokispawn" finally coming home. This combines with the simple notion that the Hellenic deities were known for weaving magic to a far greater degree than most Norse myths, in particular their tendency to change the shape of themselves and others (most prominently Zeus himself), a trait they would share with Loki. From that naming the entire new faith Seiđr from the ancient art of magic practiced by the Völva of Norse mythology. It's now a faith where supposedly the formerly shunned magic lead to the now lost riches of Rome, which in turn could spawn the upcoming Viking age as they set out to find Rome's lost riches. Luhood fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Feb 8, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 18:22
|
|
|
Luhood posted:If Rome was mythologically founded and named for Romulus, the Rome-in-Exile might build upon the same myth and name it after Remus, Remia. Also they become orcs somehow 
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
vyelkin posted:Well I've heard enough, the Romans are now the Welsh.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
I just think we should make sure that the Normans invade the British Isle and then we can have the English in EUIV and beyond making the modding much less work.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 00:34
|
|
|
well I'm working on cultures rn, and I can confirm that looking at the map gives me an upset stomach
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 01:45
|
|
|
hashashash posted:well I'm working on cultures rn, and I can confirm that looking at the map gives me an upset stomach How gory are the borders?
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 05:41
|
|
|
Xelkelvos posted:How gory are the borders? Some days we hear screaming. Some days we hear weeping. Some days we hear nothing and those ones trouble us most of all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 07:32
|
|
|
NewMars posted:Some days we hear screaming. Some days we hear weeping. Some days we hear nothing and those ones trouble us most of all. Personally I'm cheering.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 13:39
|
|
Xelkelvos posted:How gory are the borders? I'm cleaning them up, but there's only so much you can do when you have Huns, Slavs, five different types of German, and then Gauls and Britons all standing on top of each other
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 14:10
|
|
|
hashashash posted:I'm cleaning them up, but there's only so much you can do when you have Huns, Slavs, five different types of German, and then Gauls and Britons all standing on top of each other 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 16:05
|
|
|
hashashash posted:I'm cleaning them up, but there's only so much you can do when you have Huns, Slavs, five different types of German, and then Gauls and Britons all standing on top of each other Roll a die to determine who assimilates all the rest and then ignore the die roll and go with whichever one makes adapting place names easiest
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 16:08
|
|
|
hashashash posted:I'm cleaning them up, but there's only so much you can do when you have Huns, Slavs, five different types of German, and then Gauls and Britons all standing on top of each other Follow the Zomian example and have them divided up in the way that colonial administrations hate the absolute most (by elevation band)
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
Don't clean them up. Clean borders are completely ahistorical.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Veryslightlymad posted:Don't clean them up. Clean borders are completely ahistorical.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2023 18:27
|
|
|
I missed all the fun voting, but I wanted to check way back whether asian elephants were supposed to be stronger and more fearsome than the native African elephants.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 00:18
|
|
Beachcomber posted:I missed all the fun voting, but I wanted to check way back whether asian elephants were supposed to be stronger and more fearsome than the native African elephants. irl I believe Asian elephants were larger than African elephants, so I suppose so yeah I also decided to spin off that one event where we imported Asian elephants, into them not dying out in Africa...  so Carthage will be able to recruit war elephants in ck3 too
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 02:15
|
|
|
Oh no.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 02:41
|
|
|
I'm fairly certain African elephants are the bigger ones.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 02:48
|
|
|
The Bush Elephant is the largest elephant, but the North African Forest Elephant (the Carthage one that in real life is extinct) was real small. I'm pretty sure I only know this because of Civ 5.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 02:54
|
|
Eifert Posting posted:I'm fairly certain African elephants are the bigger ones. the north African elephants used by the Carthaginians, and eventually driven to extinction, were apparently much smaller than Asian and Indian elephants of the time, as well as modern African elephants that's just going off the wikipedia pages though, so could be wrong
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 02:54
|
|
|
As I'm given to understand, African elephants are generally bigger, but basically impossible to train compared to somewhat more amenable Indian elephants e: not sure how this compares to whatever extinct North African elephants Carthage had, though
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 02:56
|
|
|
Eifert Posting posted:I'm fairly certain African elephants are the bigger ones. You are correct. However the now-extinct North African subspecies utilized by the Carthaginians is believed to have been quite small (compared to other Elephants at least). Edit: whoops, beaten to the punch by like four other Goons eager to share Cool Elephant Facts forkis fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Feb 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 03:04
|
|
|
I never knew about special Carthaginian elephants, so thank you. Edit: didn't know what that smiley would do.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 03:37
|
|
|
The extinction of the small elephants is where the world went to poo poo imo
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 04:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:05 |
|
|
Buschmaki posted:The extinction of the small elephants is where the world went to poo poo imo Agreed. More: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_aXC7n-380 Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Feb 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2023 04:19
|
|