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I suppose it depends on whether or not you think democracy should be "ask people what they think right now and do that" without any other qualifiers or examination of confounding factors (elections, brexit) or whether you think it's this horrifically complex process with the intent of giving people as much ability to improve their lives while also not infringing on their neighbours, and that history suggests this can't work if you centralize power in a small number of people so whatever the ideal system looks like it's probably going to be incompatible with capitalism and a lot of the government as we have it. Is the act of asking people what they want good and validating of any result it produces or is it just a necessary element of producing an actual good outcome? Because I would conceptualize it as the latter but I think it is frequently conceptualized as the former. Democracy isn't inherently good, it's just that philosopher kings aren't real. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 9, 2023 |
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Feb 9, 2023 23:48
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Jakabite posted:It’s unfortunate that I do think Anderson is a decent reflection of a very decent (numerically, and in no other way) share of British people. If we want democracy to represent the views of the country then he’s actually a sensible option. Why that is is a different issue, and one that I’m not sure we’ve managed to articulate a good answer for. In any case, what a oval office. I think Lee Anderson is a good representation of a large number of people who feed at the teat of The Sun/Mail/Express/GB News/talk radio & get encouraged to work against their own material interests. Muttering "false consciousness" & "cultural hegemony" to myself to keep some measure of hope that's needed to keep living. Democracy only works when you have an informed electorate. Needless to say we do not have an informed electorate but a misinformed one.
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Feb 9, 2023 23:49
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You’re both dead on of course. I was talking in a bit of a ‘democracy in a vacuum’ sense I guess. My Slovak friend I’m visiting thinks we should institute tests to make sure that smarter people have more voting power. He wasn’t sure what to do with the fact that in the UK at least lots of the most educated people are loving arseholes. We couldn’t nail down what an arsehole test would look like.
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Feb 9, 2023 23:53
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Democracy in a vacuum would be very simple because it is difficult to cast votes when your blood is boiling out of your eyeballs.
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Feb 9, 2023 23:56
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Jakabite posted:what an arsehole test would look like. volume of beans
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Feb 9, 2023 23:57
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Jakabite posted:We couldn’t nail down what an arsehole test would look like. 'Have you ever voted for the Conservative Party?'
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Feb 9, 2023 23:57
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The thing I find interesting about the death penalty conversation is that the main argument against it is Mistake, but then we never have the awkward follow on conversation about the fact that we all acknowledge that sometimes juries convict based on vibes.
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Feb 9, 2023 23:57
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Alchenar posted:we all acknowledge that sometimes juries convict based on vibes. Do we? I think juries are actually surprisingly good.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:06
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There's also the argument that it tends to correlate strongly with increased rates of serious crimes for reasons that we don't have a full picture of, but we don't have a full picture of why a lot of common medicines work either and I'm not convinced that pharmacology should be done by popular vote. Deferring to bootmakers in matters of boots and so on.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:06
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I mean the main argument against it from me is just that I don't think it is particularly helpful? The severity of the punishment necessitates a high degree of certainty which means that killing people is actually very slow and expensive anyway, and it doesn't appear to do anything to deter crime because people who commit serious crimes do it either without thinking or while thinking they won't be caught. If you wanted the maximum deterring punishment then you could also, arguably, torture people for their entire lives, or for a while and then kill them, but pro death penalty people don't generally suggest that either. Which I think leads to the conclusion that the pro death penalty position is not really material-outcomes-based at all, it is because the person proposing it gets some sort of fulfilment from the act of killing the subjects of their ire. It isn't about making society better, it is about them feeling like justice happened Which, honestly, also tracks with the situations I would think it appropriate too.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:11
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Alchenar posted:the main argument against it is Mistake The main argument is that the state shouldn't be in the business of putting its own citizens to death in the first place.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:12
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Unless that's what they want, but pro capital punishment people tend to also be weirdly strongly against right to die. Which tracks with it being more about their fulfilment than anything else.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:20
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are we citizens? I thought we were subjects?
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Feb 10, 2023 00:20
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NotJustANumber99 posted:are we citizens? I thought we were subjects? We are disposable.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:22
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You're a citizen until subjected to the death penalty, then you're an object.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:26
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is there anyone whose been put to death but somehow survived and then went on to reoffend? Cos that would be good.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:28
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Rasputin
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Feb 10, 2023 00:29
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jesus?
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Feb 10, 2023 00:31
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This just popped up on my feed, and lol... https://twitter.com/mattgrantsky/status/1623328741878292481
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Feb 10, 2023 00:33
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He wants that starmussy bad.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:36
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Caught a split second of Question Time after finishing Poker Face. They're blithering about whether ChatGPT will lead to mass unemployment.
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Feb 10, 2023 00:36
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Only Kindness posted:Caught a split second of Question Time after finishing Poker Face. They're blithering about whether ChatGPT will lead to mass unemployment. It's certainly capable of replacing most journalists if they can remove most of the racism filters. And, arguably, all of question time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 00:41
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OwlFancier posted:arguably, all of question time. HEYOOOOO there it is 
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Feb 10, 2023 00:46
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Vice article: https://archive.is/dKSqE quote:UK Proposes Making the Sale and Possession of Encrypted Phones Illegal I don't even know what an encrypted phone is  and the only secrets hiding behind my calculator icon are a few square roots.
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Feb 10, 2023 01:59
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Notice how they make all the poo poo that they do illegal for everyone else.. As per design. "“Let Lee do his job as deputy chairman. He is going to be a brilliant deputy chairman. He’ll be working with the membership. He’ll be increasing the membership no doubt,” she added" No doubt indeed, nuke this loving shithole.
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Feb 10, 2023 05:10
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Guavanaut posted:There's also the argument that it tends to correlate strongly with increased rates of serious crimes for reasons that we don't have a full picture of, but we don't have a full picture of why a lot of common medicines work either and I'm not convinced that pharmacology should be done by popular vote. Is this because of the whole "poo poo I'm going to hang for X minor crime so YOLO lets do Z major crime as well since it can't get worse"? Who knows maybe it will herald a peasant rebellion and the rise of a new golden age.
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Feb 10, 2023 06:35
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Z the IVth posted:Is this because of the whole "poo poo I'm going to hang for X minor crime so YOLO lets do Z major crime as well since it can't get worse"? It's more like if the sentence for mugging someone is 3 years, there's not really any point using a weapon, since there's a big difference between that and 7-10 years for aggravated assault (or whatever). But if the sentence for mugging is life imprisonment, then why not just merk whoever you're mugging since A) they can't testify against you if they're dead so you're more likely to get away with it, and; B) life imprisonment vs death isn't a massive difference.
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Feb 10, 2023 07:40
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kingturnip posted:It's more like if the sentence for mugging someone is 3 years, there's not really any point using a weapon, since there's a big difference between that and 7-10 years for aggravated assault (or whatever). you'd think, but death sentence is actually apparently a working deterrent... kinda but yes in general past a pretty low-tier sentence, harsher punishments for crimes do not add all that much marginal value, presuming your metric is "reduce number of crimes" and not "hurt people"
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Feb 10, 2023 08:32
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https://twitter.com/newsthump/status/1623657586745540609
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Feb 10, 2023 08:33
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Vice article: It's services like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat where the phones are pretty obviously meant to be used for planning your crimes
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Feb 10, 2023 08:45
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SixFigureSandwich posted:It's services like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat Lol. All those “super encrypted phone chat!!!” things are so obviously CIA / NSA honeytraps
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Feb 10, 2023 09:14
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Jakabite posted:It’s unfortunate that I do think Anderson is a decent reflection of a very decent (numerically, and in no other way) share of British people. If we want democracy to represent the views of the country then he’s actually a sensible option. Why that is is a different issue, and one that I’m not sure we’ve managed to articulate a good answer for. In any case, what a oval office. I think he has the potential to be a very dangerous and powerful figure, to be honest. Someone that can grow into a Farage-esque populist, but with added authentocrat ‘credibility‘, and at the heart of the Tory machine rather than outside it. It’s a potent recipe.
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Feb 10, 2023 09:53
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Welp, Rowling's wizard game is turning out to be an impressively dense nexus for terrible people. https://twitter.com/protanorak/status/1623829660466388992?s=46&t=6dwTID7Od3t993nHVqKFLQ
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Feb 10, 2023 10:11
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Rowling has touched children all over the world, and that's why family courts should be dissolved. Speaking of terrible people: https://twitter.com/CaelanConrad/status/1623783178153467910
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Feb 10, 2023 10:25
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Jakabite posted:You’re both dead on of course. I was talking in a bit of a ‘democracy in a vacuum’ sense I guess. My Slovak friend I’m visiting thinks we should institute tests to make sure that smarter people have more voting power. The American South did exactly this, in theory. Turns out that's a good way to disenfranchise anyone whose skin colour you don't like.
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Feb 10, 2023 10:31
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I'm convinced; may he be sentenced to death.
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Feb 10, 2023 10:34
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feedmegin posted:The American South did exactly this, in theory. Turns out that's a good way to disenfranchise anyone whose skin colour you don't like. Yeah, he isn’t the most developed political thinker. Lol @ Forstater. You’d think if you were regularly being kicked off platforms you’d realise you’re the baddies
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Feb 10, 2023 10:38
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Darth Walrus posted:Welp, Rowling's wizard game is turning out to be an impressively dense nexus for terrible people. In the replies you can see what a charming life he's led against his ex partners. Revenge porn, restraining orders, and apparently took his speaking appearance at a con to traumadump on the audience and told all the mentally ill people in said audience to stop taking their medications and go to his website where he can provide counselling instead. Very normal stuff.
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Feb 10, 2023 10:39
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Jakabite posted:Yeah, he isn’t the most developed political thinker. If you were capable of that sort of self-reflection you probably wouldn't be one of the baddies in the first place
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Feb 10, 2023 10:40
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unusual design for a urinal cake, but i'll take it
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Feb 10, 2023 10:46
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