V. Illych L. posted:

mark ames has a handy rebuttal to this:

https://www.therealnews.com/lapdogs-redux-how-the-press-tried-to-discredit-seymour-hershs-bombshell-reporting-on-cia-domestic-spying

Rust Martialis posted:

Again, Ames is talking about Hersh's work in the 1970s - and I totally agree Hersh was doing great things in that period. But it's pretty clear that at some point prior to Syria the quality of his work just slid into conspiracy theory. It's really sad to see, like Chomsky - the guy was a major hero to me in the 1990s, I read everything he wrote. But eventually you have to face the fact that age has not been kind to them.

Rust Martialis posted:

Again, Ames is talking about Hersh's work in the 1970s - and I totally agree Hersh was doing great things in that period. But it's pretty clear that at some point prior to Syria the quality of his work just slid into conspiracy theory. It's really sad to see, like Chomsky - the guy was a major hero to me in the 1990s, I read everything he wrote. But eventually you have to face the fact that age has not been kind to them.

Alhazred posted:

V. Illych L. posted:

so, again, what is the negative consequence you imagine resulting from a serious investigation of some of the specific claims made in his narrative? hersh hasn't really claimed anything other than that this was conveyed for him by a trusted intelligence source who showed him some receipts. you're the one arguing that we shouldn't even expect our press to look into whether the claims made are true or not, because they're self-evidently false, because hersh is crazy and/or lying. my counterpoint to this is that 1) allegations like this should be generally taken with more charity than general claims regarding the world due to the secrecy and anti-democratic impulses of the services involved, and 2) hersh has been painted as crazy in the past, while revealing demonstrably true secret crimes. this again means that certainty that he's mad and should simply be ignored may be the result of a campaign to discredit the guy as part of a cover-up.

Nenonen posted:

No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours.

V. Illych L. posted:

and, again, what is the negative cost of following up on the claims? at worst, it means that some journalists waste a bit of time doing boring legwork to confirm that nothing is up. on a societal level, that is entirely negligible

big scary monsters posted:

It sounds like quite a few people are already trying to figure out what happened, does it have to be an investigation specifically into Hersh's story or can that just be one possible thing you take into consideration in a wider investigation?

V. Illych L. posted:

and, again, what is the negative cost of following up on the claims? at worst, it means that some journalists waste a bit of time doing boring legwork to confirm that nothing is up. on a societal level, that is entirely negligible

Alhazred posted:

Harald Klungtveit at filternyheter.no has followed up on the claims and concluded that nothing is up.

SplitSoul posted:

which, granted, may right now be remotely controlled by some nefarious, psychic boomer named Yuri conducting dezinformatsiya.

V. Illych L. posted:

so your answer to these allegations is that seymour hersh is a russian op? that's a pretty serious allegation on its own. have you any evidence for this?

Nenonen posted:

No, I'm saying that he's an idiot who is being fed a ludicrous crackpot theory, and so are you. Go ahead and "investigate" it all you want, though, but why should we care?

Alhazred posted:

Harald Klungtveit at filternyheter.no has followed up on the claims and concluded that nothing is up.

V. Illych L. posted:

no you weren't, you were saying that this is a russian information operation - implicitly, that hersh is a russian operative or is under russian control somehow (and, implicitly, that the only reason to take his claims seriously is because of pro-russian political leanings). that is a specific claim, and much more outrageous than anything i've been saying in this discussion. if you want to revise your position to "hersh is dumb and should be ignored", that's fine, but i've addressed that objection several times already.

the reason i'm holding you to the specifics on this is because i've been accused of what amounts to disloyalty several times in these discussions since the invasion and i take a very dim view of it as a rhetorical strategy.

finally, i am not a journalist. the argument advanced was that the papers and editors of the land should simply ignore this. i disagree with this normative statement for reasons i've explained at length.

Nenonen posted:

I know fuckall about him nor do I care to know. But for some reason he is essentially serving Assad's and Putin's propaganda machinery. I don't know why you are ignoring his shortcomings and promoting him so eagerly. I have learned that it's a fool's errand to try to explain to a believer why GWB didn't order the 9/11 or why it's unlikely that Obama was born in Kenya, so I will leave it at that.

But if you want the media to look into it, you should call the media and ask them about it.

Nenonen posted:

No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours.

Potrzebie posted:

Unfounded accusations without any credible sources posted by a disgraced boomer.

Potrzebie posted:

WE HAVE TO INVESTIGATE THE SECRET WEAPONS SMUGGLING AND SUBSEQUENT SINKING OF M/S ESTONIA BY A SUPER SPECIAL SUBMARINE!!!

Everything is a cover-up and a conspiracy.

V. Illych L. posted:

this whole exchange started with me objecting to someone dismissing the allegations out of hand, implying as i read it that they should not, normatively, be followed up on by the institutions of the press. i think that that is a wrong take, for reasons i've expounded at length to do with the function of a critical press in a free society.

basically i'm defending pretty basic tenets of bourgeois democracy on principle. if you think that this is equivalent to birtherism that's on you

e. like, i've explicitly stated - many times - that i'm not asserting that hersh's allegations are true, simply that it is interesting to examine whether they are true instead of dismissing them out of hand. if you want to compare it to birtherism, my position is that it was good that press institutions took the claims seriously enough to demonstrate to any reasonable person why they were not true, despite them not being reasonable.

V. Illych L. posted:

like, the only poster itt advancing a conspiracy theory here is nenonen, who seems to have thought that hersh is a foreign agent of some description and that his piece is a russian intelligence op.

Alhazred posted:

It has been clear all the time that the allegations was untrue and it was a waste of everyone's time to debunk it. It's like saying that we should investigate if the earth really is flat because "imagine the grave implications if it's true".

V. Illych L. posted:

but that has been investigated!

it has been investigated very thoroughly!

Potrzebie posted:

WE HAVE TO INVESTIGATE THE SECRET WEAPONS SMUGGLING AND SUBSEQUENT SINKING OF M/S ESTONIA BY A SUPER SPECIAL SUBMARINE!!!

Everything is a cover-up and a conspiracy.

Alhazred posted:

I would classify Eratosthenes' theory as a "good start".

Alhazred posted:

No they wasn't and it seems pretty loving dishonest to try and frame it that was. What they're implying is that Hersh was fed a bunch of bullshit, probably by someone connected to the Russian government, and that he was gullible enough to buy it hook, line and sinker.

Nenonen posted:

No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours.

V. Illych L. posted:

the phrase "russian info operation" seems more amenable to my reading than to yours. i don't think that nenonen actually believes this, i'm just noting that this is the only view advanced by anyone in this discussion as far as i can recall with the anatomy of a conspiracy theory.

of course, though, all charity must be extended to those with whom one agrees; to those with whom one disagrees, the most suspicious possible interpretation is appropriate.

Nenonen posted:

Alhazred got it right, you doofus. But I don't know Hershey in any sort of way so how would I know if he's in the Kremlin right now being fed information by the spoon. He's an idiot in either case.

V. Illych L. posted:

yes, so would i. it was plainly not sufficient on its own, since the controversy persisted in some form or the other for many centuries

V. Illych L. posted:

so you reckon that hersh's connections to russia should be subject to some form of investigation, perhaps? it seems like you think that there's some connection, but you're just asserting this with absolutely no evidence

Alhazred posted:

You've been proven wrong multiple times now. Stoltenberg did not blow up Nord Stream 2.

V. Illych L. posted:

where have i advanced this claim

you're being incredibly aggro about an insanely moderate and mainstream position, namely that allegations of state malfeasance should be investigated by a critical press and not simply dismissed out of hand