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https://twitter.com/t0_bi_as/status/1623750291744083968?s=46&t=odQ9qSiGc1tPS6I7kmC1Vw
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 07:13 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 05:43 |
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V. Illych L. posted:mark ames has a handy rebuttal to this: Again, Ames is talking about Hersh's work in the 1970s - and I totally agree Hersh was doing great things in that period. But it's pretty clear that at some point prior to Syria the quality of his work just slid into conspiracy theory. It's really sad to see, like Chomsky - the guy was a major hero to me in the 1990s, I read everything he wrote. But eventually you have to face the fact that age has not been kind to them.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 07:40 |
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 07:42 |
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Rust Martialis posted:Again, Ames is talking about Hersh's work in the 1970s - and I totally agree Hersh was doing great things in that period. But it's pretty clear that at some point prior to Syria the quality of his work just slid into conspiracy theory. It's really sad to see, like Chomsky - the guy was a major hero to me in the 1990s, I read everything he wrote. But eventually you have to face the fact that age has not been kind to them. Agnes Wold
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 08:28 |
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Rust Martialis posted:Again, Ames is talking about Hersh's work in the 1970s - and I totally agree Hersh was doing great things in that period. But it's pretty clear that at some point prior to Syria the quality of his work just slid into conspiracy theory. It's really sad to see, like Chomsky - the guy was a major hero to me in the 1990s, I read everything he wrote. But eventually you have to face the fact that age has not been kind to them. abu ghraib was not in the seventies, and saw hersh faced with another campaign to try and discredit him
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 11:36 |
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so, again, what is the negative consequence you imagine resulting from a serious investigation of some of the specific claims made in his narrative? hersh hasn't really claimed anything other than that this was conveyed for him by a trusted intelligence source who showed him some receipts. you're the one arguing that we shouldn't even expect our press to look into whether the claims made are true or not, because they're self-evidently false, because hersh is crazy and/or lying. my counterpoint to this is that 1) allegations like this should be generally taken with more charity than general claims regarding the world due to the secrecy and anti-democratic impulses of the services involved, and 2) hersh has been painted as crazy in the past, while revealing demonstrably true secret crimes. this again means that certainty that he's mad and should simply be ignored may be the result of a campaign to discredit the guy as part of a cover-up.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 11:46 |
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V. Illych L. posted:so, again, what is the negative consequence you imagine resulting from a serious investigation of some of the specific claims made in his narrative? hersh hasn't really claimed anything other than that this was conveyed for him by a trusted intelligence source who showed him some receipts. you're the one arguing that we shouldn't even expect our press to look into whether the claims made are true or not, because they're self-evidently false, because hersh is crazy and/or lying. my counterpoint to this is that 1) allegations like this should be generally taken with more charity than general claims regarding the world due to the secrecy and anti-democratic impulses of the services involved, and 2) hersh has been painted as crazy in the past, while revealing demonstrably true secret crimes. this again means that certainty that he's mad and should simply be ignored may be the result of a campaign to discredit the guy as part of a cover-up. No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 12:41 |
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Nenonen posted:No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours. so your answer to these allegations is that seymour hersh is a russian op? that's a pretty serious allegation on its own. have you any evidence for this?
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 12:50 |
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and, again, what is the negative cost of following up on the claims? at worst, it means that some journalists waste a bit of time doing boring legwork to confirm that nothing is up. on a societal level, that is entirely negligible
V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Feb 10, 2023 |
# ? Feb 10, 2023 12:51 |
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V. Illych L. posted:and, again, what is the negative cost of following up on the claims? at worst, it means that some journalists waste a bit of time doing boring legwork to confirm that nothing is up. on a societal level, that is entirely negligible Unfounded accusations without any credible sources posted by a disgraced boomer does not merit an investigation.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 12:55 |
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look, even if we assume that hersh is completely mad and just making stuff up, one has to believe that this is so obvious that no significant amount of reasonable people will take his claims seriously for it not to be worth following up. i think that his resume means that a significant amount of reasonable people will take his claims seriously, and that there is therefore a public interest in investigating the claims *even if they're false*. i refuse to accept the idea that subjecting secret services to scrutiny is something in which only enemies of the state would be interested
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 12:58 |
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It sounds like quite a few people are already trying to figure out what happened, does it have to be an investigation specifically into Hersh's story or can that just be one possible thing you take into consideration in a wider investigation?
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 13:13 |
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big scary monsters posted:It sounds like quite a few people are already trying to figure out what happened, does it have to be an investigation specifically into Hersh's story or can that just be one possible thing you take into consideration in a wider investigation? well there are the commissions, but they're mostly black-box investigations apart from the occasional public statement and leak. i haven't heard of anyone seriously investigating potential norwegian involvement in the bombings. i don't think that it's an obvious thing to investigate absent specific allegations such as hersh has been making, but if someone finds another lead i obviously think it should be followed
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 13:26 |
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https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vasternorrland/barnafodandet-minskar-solleftea-kommun-satsar-for-att-fler-ska-skaffa-barn Government: "Why is nobody having kids? It's such a mystery. I guess we'll never know." They should try loving looking outside maybe.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 13:40 |
V. Illych L. posted:and, again, what is the negative cost of following up on the claims? at worst, it means that some journalists waste a bit of time doing boring legwork to confirm that nothing is up. on a societal level, that is entirely negligible
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 13:42 |
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Alhazred posted:Harald Klungtveit at filternyheter.no has followed up on the claims and concluded that nothing is up. Germans too. And they'd be the ones most interested in verifying Hersh's claims. https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/nord-stream-usa-hersh-101.html And a bit more hole-poking: https://twitter.com/Mauro_Gilli/status/1624019376692240387?s=20&t=pqCHtQPmqt3gdcRwGPDv8g
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 15:47 |
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Anyway, regarding Stoltenberg, after it was revealed in 2005 that Socialist People's Party founder Aksel Larsen was literally a CIA asset, nothing is really out of the realm of possibility on that front, in my mind - which, granted, may right now be remotely controlled by some nefarious, psychic boomer named Yuri conducting dezinformatsiya.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 16:22 |
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SplitSoul posted:which, granted, may right now be remotely controlled by some nefarious, psychic boomer named Yuri conducting dezinformatsiya. From his boomer submarine, no less.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 16:36 |
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V. Illych L. posted:so your answer to these allegations is that seymour hersh is a russian op? that's a pretty serious allegation on its own. have you any evidence for this? No, I'm saying that he's an idiot who is being fed a ludicrous crackpot theory, and so are you. Go ahead and "investigate" it all you want, though, but why should we care?
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 16:54 |
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Nenonen posted:No, I'm saying that he's an idiot who is being fed a ludicrous crackpot theory, and so are you. Go ahead and "investigate" it all you want, though, but why should we care? no you weren't, you were saying that this is a russian information operation - i.e., that hersh is a russian operative or is under russian control somehow (and, implicitly, that the only reason to take his claims seriously is because of pro-russian political leanings). that is a specific claim, and much more outrageous than anything i've been saying in this discussion. if you want to revise your position to "hersh is dumb and should be ignored", that's fine, but i've addressed that objection several times already. the reason i'm holding you to the specifics on this is because i've been accused of what amounts to disloyalty several times in these discussions since the invasion and i take a very dim view of it as a rhetorical strategy. finally, i am not a journalist. the argument advanced was that the papers and editors of the land should simply ignore this. i disagree with this normative statement for reasons i've explained at length. Alhazred posted:Harald Klungtveit at filternyheter.no has followed up on the claims and concluded that nothing is up. i expect that you're referring to this piece: https://filternyheter.no/forsvaret-ut-mot-konspirasjonsteori-de-norske-flyene-har-aldri-vaert-i-omradet/ which looks fine to me and like precisely the sort of thing i think that the press should be doing. a good start! V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Feb 10, 2023 |
# ? Feb 10, 2023 17:21 |
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V. Illych L. posted:no you weren't, you were saying that this is a russian information operation - implicitly, that hersh is a russian operative or is under russian control somehow (and, implicitly, that the only reason to take his claims seriously is because of pro-russian political leanings). that is a specific claim, and much more outrageous than anything i've been saying in this discussion. if you want to revise your position to "hersh is dumb and should be ignored", that's fine, but i've addressed that objection several times already. I know fuckall about him nor do I care to know. But for some reason he is essentially serving Assad's and Putin's propaganda machinery. I don't know why you are ignoring his shortcomings and promoting him so eagerly. I have learned that it's a fool's errand to try to explain to a believer why GWB didn't order the 9/11 or why it's unlikely that Obama was born in Kenya, so I will leave it at that. But if you want the media to look into it, you should call the media and ask them about it.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 17:35 |
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Nenonen posted:I know fuckall about him nor do I care to know. But for some reason he is essentially serving Assad's and Putin's propaganda machinery. I don't know why you are ignoring his shortcomings and promoting him so eagerly. I have learned that it's a fool's errand to try to explain to a believer why GWB didn't order the 9/11 or why it's unlikely that Obama was born in Kenya, so I will leave it at that. this whole exchange started with me objecting to someone dismissing the allegations out of hand, implying as i read it that they should not, normatively, be followed up on by the institutions of the press. i think that that is a wrong take, for reasons i've expounded at length to do with the function of a critical press in a free society. basically i'm defending pretty basic tenets of bourgeois democracy on principle. if you think that this is equivalent to birtherism that's on you e. like, i've explicitly stated - many times - that i'm not asserting that hersh's allegations are true, simply that it is interesting to examine whether they are true instead of dismissing them out of hand. if you want to compare it to birtherism, my position is that it was good that press institutions took the claims seriously enough to demonstrate to any reasonable person why they were not true, despite them not being reasonable. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Feb 10, 2023 |
# ? Feb 10, 2023 17:39 |
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Nenonen posted:No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours. "He's a conspiracy theorist, he has no evidence, you just want to believe it due to your political views. He's being fed a story in a Russian disinformation campaign" I say, with no hint of introspection. Potrzebie posted:Unfounded accusations without any credible sources posted by a disgraced boomer.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 17:53 |
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WE HAVE TO INVESTIGATE THE SECRET WEAPONS SMUGGLING AND SUBSEQUENT SINKING OF M/S ESTONIA BY A SUPER SPECIAL SUBMARINE!!! Everything is a cover-up and a conspiracy.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:07 |
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Potrzebie posted:WE HAVE TO INVESTIGATE THE SECRET WEAPONS SMUGGLING AND SUBSEQUENT SINKING OF M/S ESTONIA BY A SUPER SPECIAL SUBMARINE!!! i think it is good to look at a giant disaster thoroughly. if someone with a history of being correct about weapons smuggling - even if they've also had some weird and/or bad takes - alleges this, then it's worth following up on. this, in my view, is the press fulfilling its social function. like, the only poster itt advancing a conspiracy theory here is nenonen, who seems to have thought that hersh is a foreign agent of some description and that his piece is a russian intelligence op.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:10 |
V. Illych L. posted:this whole exchange started with me objecting to someone dismissing the allegations out of hand, implying as i read it that they should not, normatively, be followed up on by the institutions of the press. i think that that is a wrong take, for reasons i've expounded at length to do with the function of a critical press in a free society. It has been clear all the time that the allegations was untrue and it was a waste of everyone's time to debunk it. It's like saying that we should investigate if the earth really is flat because "imagine the grave implications if it's true". V. Illych L. posted:
No they wasn't and it seems pretty loving dishonest to try and frame it that was. What they're implying is that Hersh was fed a bunch of bullshit, probably by someone connected to the Russian government, and that he was gullible enough to buy it hook, line and sinker. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:11 |
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Alhazred posted:
but that has been investigated! it has been investigated very thoroughly!
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:11 |
V. Illych L. posted:but that has been investigated! I would classify Eratosthenes' theory as a "good start".
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:16 |
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Potrzebie posted:WE HAVE TO INVESTIGATE THE SECRET WEAPONS SMUGGLING AND SUBSEQUENT SINKING OF M/S ESTONIA BY A SUPER SPECIAL SUBMARINE!!! Yep, those sure are completely equally plausible scenarios, Americans doing what they openly promised to do, and... whatever that is.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:21 |
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Alhazred posted:I would classify Eratosthenes' theory as a "good start". yes, so would i. it was plainly not sufficient on its own, since the controversy persisted in some form or the other for many centuries
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:21 |
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Alhazred posted:No they wasn't and it seems pretty loving dishonest to try and frame it that was. What they're implying is that Hersh was fed a bunch of bullshit, probably by someone connected to the Russian government, and that he was gullible enough to buy it hook, line and sinker. Nenonen posted:No, you're being taken advantage of by a Russian info operation. You don't need to hand it to insane conspiracy theorists just because you agree with their political views. Not even if they did something good decades ago. It's his job to back up his claims, not ours. the phrase "russian info operation" seems more amenable to my reading than to yours. i don't think that nenonen actually believes this, i'm just noting that this is the only view advanced by anyone in this discussion as far as i can recall with the anatomy of a conspiracy theory. of course, though, all charity must be extended to those with whom one agrees; to those with whom one disagrees, the most suspicious possible interpretation is appropriate.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:26 |
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V. Illych L. posted:the phrase "russian info operation" seems more amenable to my reading than to yours. i don't think that nenonen actually believes this, i'm just noting that this is the only view advanced by anyone in this discussion as far as i can recall with the anatomy of a conspiracy theory. Alhazred got it right, you doofus. But I don't know Hershey in any sort of way so how would I know if he's in the Kremlin right now being fed information by the spoon. He's an idiot in either case.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:32 |
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Heh, loving conspiracy boomers think VX gas isn't stored in translucent green orbs like in my favorite Michael Bay movie, The Rock.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:34 |
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Nenonen posted:Alhazred got it right, you doofus. But I don't know Hershey in any sort of way so how would I know if he's in the Kremlin right now being fed information by the spoon. He's an idiot in either case. so you reckon that hersh's connections to russia should be subject to some form of investigation, perhaps? it seems like you think that there's some connection, but you're just asserting this with absolutely no evidence V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Feb 10, 2023 |
# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:35 |
V. Illych L. posted:yes, so would i. it was plainly not sufficient on its own, since the controversy persisted in some form or the other for many centuries You've been proven wrong multiple times now. Stoltenberg did not blow up Nord Stream 2.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:37 |
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V. Illych L. posted:so you reckon that hersh's connections to russia should be subject to some form of investigation, perhaps? it seems like you think that there's some connection, but you're just asserting this with absolutely no evidence
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:39 |
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Alhazred posted:
where have i advanced this claim you're being incredibly aggro about an insanely moderate and mainstream position, namely that allegations of state malfeasance should be investigated by a critical press and not simply dismissed out of hand
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:40 |
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I hope nobody here sincerely believes that Russia blew up Nord Stream 2?
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:44 |
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V. Illych L. posted:where have i advanced this claim The issue with your mainstream position is that the allegation reads like a conspiracy theory with no support beyond an unnamed whistleblower who is factually incorrect multiple times in the allegations. Do I believe the US are capable of blowing up NS for their own gains? Sure. Can't see what they gained from it but sure. Do I believe Norway played a key part in the operation and didn't leak like a sieve? Hahahahahahaha, no.
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:48 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 05:43 |
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The Lenin Poster is not saying anything controversial and I have no idea why people are freaking out and making these poor dunking attempts
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# ? Feb 10, 2023 18:50 |