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cat botherer posted:Uh oh, looks like there was another derailment. Good thing this is not indicative of any systemic problems! Not the tweet I was expecting https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1625311026957766656?t=SKVNg3QSXL8S7nJL7isYqQ&s=19 Ongoing mass shooting
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Feb 14, 2023 03:02
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Ralepozozaxe posted:Looks like deadly train crashes are going to become our new school shootings (not as a replacement). There are several hundred rail related deaths a year, of which a large majority are people trespassing on train tracks. There are about a thousand derailments a year. It doesn't seem like there is much of a trend either way. If you want a "new school shootings", car crash deaths (especially pedestrians) have been increasing the past few years after decreasing for a long time.
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Feb 14, 2023 03:19
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Google Jeb Bush posted:my suspicion is that road design would not have helped much with "dumbass truck driver attempts to outrun train, dies", but hey, I'm not well studied on train crossings, maybe I'm wrong Well, if I understood the news article (https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/...plus-rail-cars/) right, this may be the crossing: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.267...!7i16384!8i8192 Note the lack of a crossing gate (or lights?). They are not 100% moron proof (nothing is!), but they help a lot. And if it's not the right intersection, lack of gate is true per the article: quote:Teller said there are no railroad crossing arms at the intersection where the collision occurred, just a railway crossing yield sign.
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Feb 14, 2023 03:25
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OddObserver posted:Well, if I understood the news article (https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/...plus-rail-cars/) right, this may be the crossing: oh actually yeah if there aren't lights, gates, or non train horn sounds, that could in fact be a traffic design fuckup, I just kinda assumed one of those warnings was in place like obviously the underlying fatal decision was "drive through intersection in front of train" but if the only warning process was the truck driver looking left and right, that's a problem
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Feb 14, 2023 03:26
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That "RAWSALERTS" twitter account appears to never source anything.
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Feb 14, 2023 03:46
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Google Jeb Bush posted:oh actually yeah if there aren't lights, gates, or non train horn sounds, that could in fact be a traffic design fuckup, I just kinda assumed one of those warnings was in place The train is also required to lay on their horn as they approach every crossing. I have several signalled and unsignalled crossings near my home, so I see these all the time. The unsignalled crossing has a shorter sightline than the one that was linked but also a much lower speed than the other nearby crossings. In the four years I've been here I can't say I've ever been surprised by a train or felt unsafe crossing the tracks. But if a signal would have saved the driver then put one in.
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Feb 14, 2023 03:50
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Twincityhacker posted:I have noticed an uptick in people posting about the East Palestine derailment... and posting extremely false statements about it, like "they" ( I think the poster meant the townsfolk? ) don't know what chemicals spilled from the tankers, and that all the animals in the area died. It took five whole seconds for me to look up the derailment and see what spilled ( mostly vinyl chloride, though Norfolk Southern sent a list of everything on the train to the EPA and there were four other chemicals that were spilled ) and while there has been cases of dead animals, saying that every animal in the area died isn't true. A lot of it is coming from the right who are taking this and running with it because they get to blame a gay man. It's actually woke policies that caused the disaster you see. The woke left don't care about/wanted to do a genocide on rural white Americans so they allowed/caused this to happen with their woke regulations and the woke George Soros media is hiding it from you and therefore you should vote for conservatives who will fix this by...uh...look over there there's a trans person existing! https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1625303619569328129 and for more debunking https://twitter.com/SciHoss/status/1625187996223049728 (Stew Peters is one of the most insane anti-vaxx/pro-piss-drinking pundits in alt-right conspiracist media, him hyping this up should raise some red flags)
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Feb 14, 2023 04:18
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Ugh, really? I've been seeing it from well intentioned... liberals I guess? Like, def. not someone connected at all to the chudsphere, but I wouldn't call them leftists or progressives. I'm not too well aquainted with one of them, but thr other is pretty doomerist. I wonder if their doom and gloom feeds picked it from the chudsphere and since not wildly hateful they didn't realize it.
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Feb 14, 2023 04:35
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It’s popped up on Tucker. It’s definitely catching that right / very online left demographic.
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Feb 14, 2023 04:47
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Discendo Vox posted:That "RAWSALERTS" twitter account appears to never source anything. Now I know as a news source you've got to hear both sides, so they also follow Aaron Rupar, Joe Biden, Rex Chapman, Nicki Minaj, Matt Taibbi, Taylor Lorenz, and a dozen or so random local "Antifa Chapters". Almost everything they post is just taking other people's breaking news/video footage/photos so they're probably not outright making poo poo up, but they're also not breaking any actual news and that is a hell of an ecosystem they've built for themselves.
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Feb 14, 2023 04:48
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Youth Decay posted:A lot of it is coming from the right who are taking this and running with it because they get to blame a gay man. It's actually woke policies that caused the disaster you see. The woke left don't care about/wanted to do a genocide on rural white Americans so they allowed/caused this to happen with their woke regulations and the woke George Soros media is hiding it from you and therefore you should vote for conservatives who will fix this by...uh...look over there there's a trans person existing! "And now they are saying that the the chemicals are going to homo-gen-ize with the river. That's right, they're going to Homosexual Generation-ize a whole city. Those liberals will stop at nothing."
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Feb 14, 2023 04:55
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'Bug under communism, feature under capitalism' pretty much sums up Cold War propaganda in a nutshell. You still see that mindset with standards and tests applied only to leftists and immediately memory holed the moment they're no longer convenient. Also figures that the narrative they're probably going to gin up is now 'The mean ol' chuds and looney left are only mad about the lil train whoopsy as an excuse to be mad at a gay man'.
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Feb 14, 2023 06:18
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it doesnt help when ol' pete decides to pop up with this incredibly mealy-mouthed statement TEN DAYS after the disaster https://twitter.com/SecretaryPete/status/1625305036854009856
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Feb 14, 2023 06:21
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Ghost Leviathan posted:'Bug under communism, feature under capitalism' pretty much sums up Cold War propaganda in a nutshell. You still see that mindset with standards and tests applied only to leftists and immediately memory holed the moment they're no longer convenient. That's not what I said at all. I never claimed it wasn't a major disaster and a symptom of massive failure. I am saying that it is something conspiracy theorists are latching onto for their own ends which are just about owning the libs. JD Vance up there sure isn't calling for stricter regulations or forcing Norfolk Southern to bend to union demands. And because it's Tucker Carlson steering the ship the narrative on the right is quickly turning into "the response to the disaster has been bad not because it might cost the railroads more money or force them to add cabooses back to their trains but because it affects mainly white people".
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Feb 14, 2023 06:54
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A big flaming stink posted:it doesnt help when ol' pete decides to pop up with this incredibly mealy-mouthed statement TEN DAYS after the disaster Pipeline (PHMSA) was there within hours. What specific actions and choices did you want made differently? What exactly did you want them to do differently?
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Feb 14, 2023 06:57
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also figures that the narrative they're probably going to gin up is now 'The mean ol' chuds and looney left are only mad about the lil train whoopsy as an excuse to be mad at a gay man'. Do you think Republicans are talking about the train derailment because they have specific policy changes in mind that would have prevented it from happening? If so, what are they? edit: A big flaming stink posted:it doesnt help when ol' pete decides to pop up with this incredibly mealy-mouthed statement TEN DAYS after the disaster If you look at the rest of that twitter thread he summarizes the federal government response (including agencies that are not part of the department of transportation) and links the EPA page on ongoing monitoring. The EPA Great Lakes office has a twitter account that has been tweeting about it for a week. Are you just complaining about the wording? James Garfield fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 08:02
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Adam Johnson, cohost of the only good podcast Citations Needed, has what I think is a pretty good take on the media coverage of the derail. It's not that there's no coverage (although apparently MSNBC hasn't covered it at all), it's that the coverage is almost completely apolitical. As if it was just a natural disaster, and not the result of political decisions. Also, comparatively speaking, that stupid loving balloon got way more coverage everywhere and was treated as an existential threat. https://thecolumn.substack.com/p/msnbc-sunday-morning-news-shows-completely quote:As The Lever’s David Sirota’s been pointing out on Twitter over the past few days, a review of MSNBC’s website and social media, and the transcripts for the three leading morning Sunday Morning talk shows—NBC’s Meet the Press, ABC’s This Week, and CBS’s Face the Nation—shows that the potentially catastrophic chemical train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio is a political non-issue to our Center-Left political debate agenda setters. And just to head off a common criticism, I don't think this was a conspiracy of news execs meeting together in a smoke filled room with the government and agreeing to do a cover up while cackling maniacally. But rather it's the result of media corporations chasing more popular news stories that don't ask hard questions, ie that stupid loving balloon, because they are financially incentivized to do so. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 08:13
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I'm watching two guys argue, I'm not getting into it because one of the two people is the most obnoxious person I know. But they're arguing about the train incident in Ohio. And I was just wondering if someone who actually knows about this could tell me if the one guy is right or if it even matters. One guy said that the Obama era mandate would not have prevented this and therefore Buttigieg is blameless for not reinstating the Obama era mandate because the Obama era mandate that got cut during Trump's presidency wouldn't have actually applied to this. Because, it only required the brakes for "high hazard flammable unit trains" with specific flammable liquids, and this train wouldn't have been regulated as a high hazard flammable unit train. And that, because the rule was repealed cuz of the fast act and not executive action, Buttigieg wouldn't have the legal authority to reinstate it anyway. I don't know anything about trains and train regulations so, is that what's up with it?
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Feb 14, 2023 09:02
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Pipeline (PHMSA) was there within hours. What specific actions and choices did you want made differently? the main thing is just that if the mainstream media coverage doesn't match my curated social media feeds, then the best thing to explain this discrepancy is that the mainstream media is covering something up generally speaking, if there's a conflict between my own perception of the world and a larger consensus of reality, then i'm not the incorrect party. ever it doesn't matter how many bureaucrats or journalists have something to say, random people on social media are generally far more trustworthy and have deeper insight because they have no reason to lie to me or misinform me
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Feb 14, 2023 09:07
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Pipeline (PHMSA) was there within hours. What specific actions and choices did you want made differently? cover the disaster from the moment it happens, and speak about what happens in detail the fact that this happens over a week after the fact makes my suspicion of a CYA attempt rise tenfold
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Feb 14, 2023 09:14
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BrainDance posted:I'm watching two guys argue, I'm not getting into it because one of the two people is the most obnoxious person I know. But they're arguing about the train incident in Ohio. And I was just wondering if someone who actually knows about this could tell me if the one guy is right or if it even matters. The cause of the incident hasn't been determined.
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Feb 14, 2023 09:41
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A big flaming stink posted:cover the disaster from the moment it happens, and speak about what happens in detail So, to be clear, you're entertaining a conspiracy theory that there is a government coverup occurring based on Tweets (or the timing/lack thereof)? edit: it would be helpful if you would state clearly what you're trying to suggest, rather than doing a sort of "just asking questions" about the timing of a Pete tweet. Your first post said it "doesn't help" (doesn't help what?) and your second said it raises your suspicion of a CYA tenfold. So are you implying you think there's a multi-department coverup? If so, what makes you think that? edit2: to be clear on my own part, I think there's an awful lot of this: Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:the main thing is just that if the mainstream media coverage doesn't match my curated social media feeds, then the best thing to explain this discrepancy is that the mainstream media is covering something up happening right now in a variety of social media ecosystems, not restricted to the left or right. I'm not addressing the discussion on the causes of the derailment, just the conspiracy theories circulating on social media (and Tucker Carlson?) about a government coverup. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 09:51
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I think the NTSB report for the Conrail Freight Train Derailment with Vinyl Chloride Release Paulsboro, New Jersey, November 30, 2012 is going to be an informative read for many itt, myself included, as an example of a previous incident in the recent past with similar characteristics, also showing how an investigation and its findings are presented for this type of thing. Here's the executive summary: quote:On Friday, November 30, 2012, at 6:52a.m. eastern standard time, southbound Consolidated Rail Corporation freight train FC4230, arrived and stopped on the main track at the Paulsboro moveable bridge near milepost 13 on the Consolidated Rail Corporation PennsGrove Secondary Subdivision in Paulsboro, NewJersey. A red signal aspect was displayed and did not change to green when the radio signal command was executed by the train crew, indicating that the bridge was not prepared for train movement. There are a bunch of recommendations starting p59. Additionally there are reiterated recommendations from previous incidents: quote:Previously Issued Recommendations Reiterated in this Report How many of the 35 recommendations were implemented, and how well? mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 10:07
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Fritz the Horse posted:So, to be clear, you're entertaining a conspiracy theory that there is a government coverup occurring based on Tweets (or the timing/lack thereof)? what? No I don't think there's a coverup, I think everybody is trying desperately to deny their own personal responsibility of the event. Cover your rear end did not mean a coverup by my reckoning, it just means you don't want to get stuck with the bill
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Feb 14, 2023 10:17
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A big flaming stink posted:what? No I don't think there's a coverup, I think everybody is trying desperately to deny their own personal responsibility of the event. Okay, thanks. Sorry to laser focus on you for that if that was not your intention.
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Feb 14, 2023 10:20
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A big flaming stink posted:cover the disaster from the moment it happens, and speak about what happens in detail How does making twitter statements immediately help make someone more accountable (or whatever you consider the inverse of CYA to be)? Versus, like in this case, waiting 10 days to release detailed information about what the NTSB's investigation has found thus far? Kalit fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 13:51
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Vance claiming the issue is Biden not focusing on infrastructure while Vance's party steadfastly refuses to allow any of Biden's infrastructure bills is rich.
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Feb 14, 2023 14:10
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At least personally, what seems conspiratorial about the situation is that the whole situation is like political jet fuel but theres comparatively little chatter about it. It is a big disaster that people can understand (train crash) that has extremely evocative images associated with it (black cloud of death) and lead to a temporary notice of extreme urgency (leave or die) The responsible party is a faceless multi billion dollar corporation which just offered $5000/person to the town, which is a laughably small pittance that should evoke outrage. There was recently a railway workers strike which was overruled by federal action, during which safety due to understaffing was at least part of the concerns of the unions involved. The secretary of transportation is one of the rising political stars of the political party. If this had happened under Trump there is no doubt in my mind that many members of the Democratic party would be stitching the above facts together over and over to drive home a message of corporate greed and a failure of the government to act appropriately in regulating their activity, and blaming Trump for stepping on union activity. But because Republicans have no desire to drum up pro-regulatory or pro-union sentiment, there are not political actors that can stitch together a narrative and everything just sort of languishes. Its just bizarre, and its not that there is insufficient coverage, though there is, its that theres a lack of 'this bad thing happened and we need to do something about it' coverage, which is strange. Again my guess is that the factions that are pro 'doing something about it' are hamstrung by the fact that their party is in power currently and the opposing faction doesn't believe in doing anything about it, but I could be wrong. I also agree that it is entirely plausible that based on the known chemistry of the situation that things are not in a 'salted-earth-for-a-thousand-years' scenario, I mostly am thinking about the public perception of a disaster event. And since this event has some very striking imagery and an initial warning of imminent doom, it should be easy for various political figures to take advantage of.
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Feb 14, 2023 14:45
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The chemistry of it is that it's not even a "salt the earth for the next week" kind of thing. Everything is basically gone now, and as the winds blow through it'll be even more so. Right now it's just down to water treatment if it's necessary for the byproducts, if they pop up locally. To be completely honest, I've seen a lot of stories about how people in East Palenstine are coming back to grab paperwork from their homes and within the one hour of being there are developing symptoms of exposure. Which, I don't want to say that they are misunderstanding it, just isn't really what you would expect from the situation, especially ten days after the fact, especially after a rainstorm already blew through there. For the "what's to be done", I think a lot of it is that it's really not clear what even went wrong. A lot of railway negligence in maintenance and procedure has built up over time that requires at least some technical knowledge of how the mechanics of the system works, and right now the attitude is mostly "well do SOMETHING". Unfortunately the chemicals are getting more attention than the rails, which is not surprising but also not very helpful for solving the actual issues.
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Feb 14, 2023 14:57
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celadon posted:Its just bizarre, and its not that there is insufficient coverage, though there is, its that theres a lack of 'this bad thing happened and we need to do something about it' coverage, which is strange. Again my guess is that the factions that are pro 'doing something about it' are hamstrung by the fact that their party is in power currently and the opposing faction doesn't believe in doing anything about it, but I could be wrong.  good analysis here.CuddleCryptid posted:For the "what's to be done", I think a lot of it is that it's really not clear what even went wrong. A lot of railway negligence in maintenance and procedure has built up over time that requires at least some technical knowledge of how the mechanics of the system works, and right now the attitude is mostly "well do SOMETHING". Higher classification of the chemicals so they meet the particular threshold required for electronic braking or just making the drat railroads invest in electronic braking for all their trains. Not strikebreaking when safety issues lead directly to statistically predictable disasters.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:00
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celadon posted:At least personally, what seems conspiratorial about the situation is that the whole situation is like political jet fuel but theres comparatively little chatter about it. A good post but I just want to issue a small correction, which is that the pittance being paid out is actually smaller than that. From this excellent article from The New Republic about how it has directly affected those who live in the area: (https://newrepublic.com/post/170570/life-ohio-train-derailment-trouble-breathing-dying-animals-saying-goodbye) quote:After the derailment, the Norfolk Southern train had to undergo a “controlled burning” in order to safely release the cargo’s toxic chemicals. Before this was done, Ohio Governor Mike DeWine issued a one mile evacuation zone surrounding the crash site. Norfolk Southern has been tasked to clean up the mess. After an initial $25,000 donation to the community, the company said they would give $1,000 “inconvenience checks” to residents within the evacuation zone; the company also has offered to reimburse expense receipts for residents within East Palestine. Heck, anyone who hasn't read the article should since there's some infuriating stuff in it that needs more attention: quote:Chelsea Simpson, who also lives near the site of the derailment, has suffered from a sore throat while her 8-month-old baby has suffered respiratory issues. Urgent care doctors gave the baby a steroid while Simpson was prescribed an antibiotic. After Simpson visited her home for 10 minutes a few days ago, her eyes were bloodshot and burning.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:08
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Harold Fjord posted:just making the drat railroads invest in electronic braking for all their trains. This would basically have to be it. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile, mandating it on all trains would be the way to go. You could also do it by volume, all trains with tanker cars need electronic braking, because sending that by drums is not going to be more economical.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:12
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celadon posted:At least personally, what seems conspiratorial about the situation is that the whole situation is like political jet fuel but theres comparatively little chatter about it. There is plenty of coverage- to the point that you are promoting a conspiracy theory by working backwards from the conclusion you are wanting to find, and prioritizing false beliefs in order to "know" that it is worse than it is. To wit: celadon posted:I also agree that it is entirely plausible that based on the known chemistry of the situation that things are not in a 'salted-earth-for-a-thousand-years' scenario, I mostly am thinking about the public perception of a disaster event. is not remotely plausible. It indicates you have not read any of the material already posted about what happened, what the substances involved are, and what is getting done. You seem to be taking every single "why isn't this getting more coverage!?" post, anywhere, at face value; a process of ratcheting perception that could be applied to any event, anywhere. The fact that your beliefs aren't true is being used to justify them.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:13
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Discendo Vox posted:is not remotely plausible. It indicates you have not read any of the material already posted about what happened, what the substances involved are, and what is getting done. You seem to be taking every single "why isn't this getting more coverage!?" post, anywhere, at face value; a process of ratcheting perception that could be applied to any event, anywhere. You misread his post in your eagerness to own him. Discendo Vox posted:working backwards from the conclusion you are wanting to find,
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Feb 14, 2023 15:14
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Harold Fjord posted:You misread his post in your eagerness to own him. No, I haven't. They're working backward from their own misperception about perception. They want it to be bad news, so they are doubling down on needing there to be bad news, to the point that they are overtly unmooring their standard of how things should be covered from reality- literally alleging a conspiracy because the bad coverage isn't worse.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:15
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celadon posted:it is entirely plausible that based on the known chemistry of the situation that things are not in a 'salted-earth-for-a-thousand-years' scenario + Discendo Vox posted:is not remotely plausible. = quote:is not remotely plausible that based on the known chemistry of the situation that things are not in a 'salted-earth-for-a-thousand-years' scenario quote:
We get quote:based on the known chemistry of the situation things are in a 'salted-earth-for-a-thousand-years' scenario
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Feb 14, 2023 15:22
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Harold Fjord posted:+ Nah, the quote, like the rest of celadon's nested claim, is about coverage. celadon has alleged that the fact that coverage isn't as lovely as they want it to be, as ignorant as some of it already is, is evidence of conspiracy. It's a demand that coverage be worse, working backward from such a need.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:24
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Celadon is not alleging conspiracy. A bunch of people independently working in their own interest and producing a net result is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. He's talking about "seeming", and he's right. He offers analysis of non-conspiratorial things that create the seeming. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 15:28
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I'm not asserting the reality of what the specific chemicals being produced are or their persistence in the environment. I do have a little bit of questioning as to whether its 100% valid to translate laboratory decomposition of vinyl chloride to burning a tanker car full of the stuff, but again, the specific nature of what is actually happening is somewhat beside my point. My point is that this image is pretty evocative, and a 'leave the area or die' message is also pretty evocative, and there is a certain political energy that is traditionally drawn from images of this magnitude that appears to be lacking in the current iteration. My hypothesis is that the situation surrounding this event has lead to an absence of available political actors to exploit it appropriately and thats why it doesn't seem like there is enough coverage here. The actual risk involved is not as important for the purposes of public perception as the fact that theres images of horrible black clouds and urgent messaging regarding immediate evacuation.
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Feb 14, 2023 15:34
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Okay, great. celadon has alleged that the fact that coverage isn't as lovely as they want it to be, as ignorant as some of it already is, is evidence of seeming conspiracy. It's a demand that coverage be worse, working backward from such a need. The coverage of the incident, and the discussion of it, doesn't need to be as lovely as they, or you, want it to be. celadon posted:My point is that this image is pretty evocative, and a 'leave the area or die' message is also pretty evocative, and there is a certain political energy that is traditionally drawn from images of this magnitude that appears to be lacking in the current iteration. My hypothesis is that the situation surrounding this event has lead to an absence of available political actors to exploit it appropriately and thats why it doesn't seem like there is enough coverage here. There are plenty of people giving really lovely takes unmoored from reality about the situation. A bunch of them have been posted in the thread! You're doing the exact same "why aren't more people talking about this" takes as those people, about those people. celadon posted:The actual risk involved is not as important for the purposes of public perception as the fact that theres images of horrible black clouds and urgent messaging regarding immediate evacuation. There was a horrible black cloud, and there was urgent messaging regarding immediate evacuation, and there were already several pages of people telling them to knock that poo poo off, right here in the thread, evoking that. Why are you seeking for public perception to be more delusional? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Feb 14, 2023 |
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Feb 14, 2023 15:34
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